Phoenix Guard vs. White Lions

[Tribun]

I think both units are very good:

PG cause fear, have high moral and ward save
but WL are dangerous for armoured foes, are stubborn and both units have cool minis.

But beeing expensive minis, I only will muster one type of regiment. So what would you choose? My opponents are mostly dwarfs, empire, woodies and delves.

And second question: How would a Deathstar of PG look like and how a WL- one (so what standard, size, heros in this unit and their magic items etc...)?

[Chracian]

Phoenix guard are good at holding a foe but not necessarily good at killing anything, as they are only S4. They are best used in blocks of at least 15 as you need as much static combat resolution as possible. Mine have full command as well as they are usually carrying a magic banner. A combat character, such as a BSB, in the unit will help as he can actually kill things. I think my phoenix guard have survived every single battle they've been in (and yes, I do throw them into combat).

White lions are better at killing things, but not as good as swordmasters, who have twice the number of attacks. However, they are somewhat protected from missile fire due to their lion cloaks. White lions need either the lion standard or the standard of balance. This is because there is a lot of fear causing stuff out there and if they get beaten and are outnumbered, they will auto-break. Immunity against fear means they utilise their stubborn nature to full potential. Unit size is personal preference as one white lion is as stubborn as 100. I use 10.

Out of our 3 elite infantry then, they can be summarised as:
swordmasters: very good at killing stuff, but get shot and die a lot.
white lions: not as good at killing stuff, but stay alive for longer.
phoenix guard:not good at killing stuff, but stay alive forever.

If you are getting just one then, it's probably best to go for the middle ground i.e. white lions. They'll be cheaper than phoenix guard because you won't need as many. But aren't the phoenix guard models gorgeous?

[Tribun]

Thanks for the answer, yes the PG models are awesome!

[Palinux]

I would go for White Lions! Stubborn is just amazing when the BSB is around. Stubborn ld 8 with re-roll from BSB have a amazing 92.3% chance of holding anything if they lose. Then, ASF with Str 6 is not really bad, it's just not as good at the swordmasters - but they are just amazing.

Pheonix Guards just don't work for me. A single panictest or losing a single combat and they flee. Yes they have fear and ward save, but they really don't kill anything. They are great for building a bunker with Banner of Sorcery. They are also very resilient to any kind of shooting and magic because of thier ward, since some warmachines ignore AS. With Korhil to give them stubborn, I think they would do great!

White Lions will work in much smaller numbers, so for point/money saving, they might be worth a try?

[wamphyri101]

I personally use white lions. They are far more useful (unless you want a mage bunker) and with that str6 and stubborn you can take most targets down (give them the banner of balance and makes them fantastic!)

On the plus side, if halberds get changed in 8th ed to +1 str and Armour pen then they will be very useful

[Arcsheild]

Personally it's phoenix guard for me. Now, you white lion folks are absolutely right; they can't kill anything for peanuts. Even worse than spearmen, and they're our cheapest unit . However, I will always choose them to other elite units, especially white lions. My reasons:

1. Cause fear automatically. These guys do great against daemons, undead and any other auto-breaking-stupid-too-freaking-overpowerd-for-they're-own-good armies.

2. Good leadership. Second best in the entire game. Really handy (unless versing that new beastman weapon, but meh )

3. Each Phoenix guard must be a) hit b) wounded and c) failed his armour save. THEN he has a 50% chance to live or die. All the time. So. Fucking. Awesome.

4. Mixture of 2 and three. Few deaths and high leadership = VERY few panic tests.

5. The fluff. I know, you really shouldn't choose your army for the fluff of it, but I personally love the Phoenix Guards fluff. I also know some people hate it. 'Huh? "Throbbing pulsing energy surrounds them, sending dread into the hearts of their enemies"? What the hell does THAT mean?'

In my mind though, it is a LOT better to have that. The enemy running away because our Eternal Keepers of the flame aren't making a lot of chit-chat just doesn't work for me somehow.


Anyway, lots of reasons, but summing up:




PHOENIX GUARD ROCK!!!

[Musashi]

Again, it's situational.

By default, you want your anvil to be Phoenix Guard. You only need stubborn if you aren't confident of winning CR. If you know there will be a forest on the table and you plan to take advantage of those tactical possibilities (assuming it's positioned favourably) WLs would be a very good choice.

If you aren't facing a shooty line up, twice the attacks at strength five is probably more useful than strength six, and you would need less bodies for any particular unit.

[SpellArcher]

The fluff. I know, you really shouldn't choose your army for the fluff of it, but I personally love the Phoenix Guards fluff.

This. I'd go with your gut. I love the pig-headedness of White Lions, so they are my elite infantry of choice.

[HellrageXVI]

I run a block of 20 PG.

Team it with a Lion Chariot, See how many enemies exepct to get steamrolled by a high elf outnumbering fear causing unit.

Used succesfully 4 times so far in large games and my opponents jaw has hit the floor each time.

Nobody connects high elves with outnumbering and even less connect them with fear causing on anything other than dragons and gryphons.

PG provide the numbers LC makes sure you win combat, if no casualties are taken on the march across the board (and seriously who shoots at PG???) your US 24 fear causer.


I've also never use PG as an anvil. I gave the whole hammer and anvil thing about 2 months worth of time when I got started on HE and my anvil always cracked, so I started forcing my opponent to anvil and I've started cracking them.

If I really need to anvil something, it's probably got heavy enough armor spirit of the forge will reduce it to ash, if its got enough magic resistance I cant roast it, it either has frenzy and can be lead in circles all game long or its a deathstar and I just leave it alone and crush everything else.

[White_Phoenix]

I would go with White Lions.

I had the same dillema some time ago, but i figured that PG are simply improved versions of Spearelves - they basically have the same function, be a big block that doesn't do much damage.

but we just have no substitute for White Lions - no other unit that can occupy forests properly, and most importantly - S6. S6 is simply amazing. Sometimes i disagree with White lions being less killing effective than Swordmasters - because of that S6. Besides, Swordmasters are likely to devestate for one round before dying, while White lions tend to hold.

I also like the WL models, and they are MUCH simpler to assemble - assembling PG is one of the more frustrating things i have ever done...

[SpellArcher]

i figured that PG are simply improved versions of Spearelves - they basically have the same function, be a big block that doesn't do much damage

To be fair, they do have several advantages over Spears, Durability, Fear, Ld9.

I hate to take issue with a fellow Lion enthusiast but Banner of Ellyrion? S6 is great against knights and monsters but overkill against most infantry. I too like the models. Some are a bit clunky but the command figures in particular are excellent.

[Griffon Prince]

It really depends on the rest of your list and what armies you regularly face (if you aren't tailoring a list that's another matter).
I'm gonna say Lions since I feel that the need for a stubborn unit is too important to pass up. Toss on the Standard of Balance and watch them take a charge from anything short of an A-Bomb and survive. I field a unit of 14 with full command, the banner and the amulet of light to deal with pesky treemen and wraiths.
I also take PG every now and then but the boys from Chrace are far more important in the current meta IMO. The SoB can remove hatred and frenzy from the new beastmen units you'll be seeing.

[SpellArcher]

I think the Lion Standard is fine on say a unit of 10 you need to hold for a round or two.

On a bigger unit, Balance will keep them going longer and is worth the points.

[Wicksi]

Personally I dont really like white lions, they are not bad no but I think we can field much better stuff. This is ofc depending on situations vs dragons/Greaterdemons and Knights they do pretty well.

And I do have to disagree about PG's not killing anything in close combat they usually do me more kills then my Dragon princes manage (Could be cuz of the dice though)

But in my opinion White lions are what you get if a Phoenix guard and a Swordmaster would have a baby.
He have some decent killing power but no where as devestating as SM's. There white lion cloaks makes them resistant to shooting but its not near as good as a 4+ Wardsave

To me they are a little of Jack of all trades, master at none. People might not think as me though

[Tribun]

To show you my tactical situation,I show you, what I 've got else:

1 Tiranoc-chariot
1 Chrace-chariot
20 Seaguard
8 Shadowwarriors
1 RBT
1 Eagle
2*mage

Opponents: Dwarfs, Empire, Delves, Woodies

So what fits best in there. PG or Lions?

[Pash]

You're forgetting one advantage that PG have over WL: they have I6. This is something I rarely use due to ASF but when fighting other ASF enemies (other HE for example) the I6 REALLY comes in handy. Imagine a unit of 10 PG and 10 WL in combat - guess who'd win? Same with the SM vs PG (although SM MIGHT just pull that off). It's not something to be forgotten.

Personally, WL have never been that successful for me. I have tried many builds and have relegated them to small units (10 naked) to harass flanks and hold woods. For some reason Stubborn 8 just doesn't work for me as much as it should.

PG on the other hand can definetly take some punishment. I'm quite comfident for them to take any 2D6 magic missile or any gunpowder shots or even chariot hits. Nothing funnier than seeing the disappointment on your opponents face when he charges his chaos chariot in your flank and you only lose 2 PG..

[Griffon Prince]

Looking at what your opponents bring, Tribun, I'm going to say bring Phoenix Guard.
Vs. Dwarfs: They are more resilient to warmachines and when coupled with a combat character can take on anything the stunties have in hand to hand.
Vs. Empire: The PG's lack of attacks doesn't really matter here as the Empire isn't all that hot in CC. Fear can give them issues as well. and who doesn't love laughing at a Hellblaster after it causes 10 wounds and you save 8 of them? Empire players worry about these guys for a reason.
Vs. Dark Elves: PG have In 6 so if they have to fight some Blackguard, its a roll off to see who strikes first. Now, I would never want to engage BG with any of my units but if my opponent is crafty, I might not have a choice. If that happens, I want my 4+ ward, Initiative 6 boys dealing with them, not my In 5 White Lions who would only have a 6+ armor save.
Dark Elves bring a ton of shooting and it all has armor piercing so the Lion Cloaks are giving you 4's on the saving throws. PG would be getting 6's and then 4's.
Vs. Wood Elves: True, WL's can go through woods and their high strength is fantastic agaisnt Trees but if you are facing alot of Treekin (as they are now more popular in 7th for some reason), then static CR would be helpful.
White Lions might be the better choice against WE the more I think about it but I feel that Phoenix Guard are definitely better against the other 3 armies listed.

[Chracian]

To show you my tactical situation,I show you, what I 've got else:

1 Tiranoc-chariot
1 Chrace-chariot
20 Seaguard
8 Shadowwarriors
1 RBT
1 Eagle
2*mage

Opponents: Dwarfs, Empire, Delves, Woodies

So what fits best in there. PG or Lions?

Well white lions would fit in with a nice north ulthuan theme (apart from the seaguard, but you could say they've come along with the bolt thrower).

You'll likely face a lot of shooting from your opponents, so either would be fine, although I think PG have the edge due to their ward save. Against T3, again PG would be ok as they'll wound on 3+, same as WLs.

[White_Phoenix]

i figured that PG are simply improved versions of Spearelves - they basically have the same function, be a big block that doesn't do much damage

To be fair, they do have several advantages over Spears, Durability, Fear, Ld9.

I hate to take issue with a fellow Lion enthusiast but Banner of Ellyrion? S6 is great against knights and monsters but overkill against most infantry. I too like the models. Some are a bit clunky but the command figures in particular are excellent.

The point is that spearelves and PG have the same function - being big and holding mages. I actually like big blocks of spearmen more - but that maybe because i like throwing lots of dice, and 7-wide spearmen block is so much fun =). people tend to avoid PG blocks, knowing they cant kill anything when charging them, but people do charge spearmen blocks, thinking they can chew a large amount of points. they are almost always mistaken - spearmen blocks dont break that easy.

in my opinion, we do not have a proper substitute for WLs.

Banner of Ellyrion doesnt include any character in the unit, and i like to put my caddies in forests at times since they dont need much line of sight anyways to drain magic or dispel.

About the S6 - an unreasonable amount of players in my gaming group are playing dwarves, so that S6 comes in handy. Besides, WL are about my only option against units of Chaos Knights or Blood Knights...

And i repeat my earlier comment about assembling PG - it is hell, and then you notice the helberd is bent. ARGH.

I just like WLs more.

[HellrageXVI]

To show you my tactical situation,I show you, what I 've got else:

1 Tiranoc-chariot
1 Chrace-chariot
20 Seaguard
8 Shadowwarriors
1 RBT
1 Eagle
2*mage

Opponents: Dwarfs, Empire, Delves, Woodies

So what fits best in there. PG or Lions?

Well white lions would fit in with a nice north ulthuan theme (apart from the seaguard, but you could say they've come along with the bolt thrower).

You'll likely face a lot of shooting from your opponents, so either would be fine, although I think PG have the edge due to their ward save. Against T3, again PG would be ok as they'll wound on 3+, same as WLs.

Not sure what white lions you are using but mine generally wound T3 models on a 2+

When it gets to T4, PG are wounding on a 4+, and my lions still wounding those baddies on 2+, I generally run with a 10-15 man block of lions and a 15-18 man block of SM, I will agree with whoever said PG were HELL to put together, so much so I got the command done and threw the rest into the bottom draw of my dresser to be dealt with at a later date. I love how I can use them but the halberds are NIGHTMARES to put on.

[Bolt Thrower]

I'm enjoying the Phoenix Guard quite a lot. I mostly use them as a bunker but am considering trying to run them with a more offensive mindset to see if they can do it. I hope to test that out this weekend.

Against your opponents (especially dwarves) I think they will do you better as they will survive the ranged onslaught.

I should add though that I haven't really experimented with White Lions yet and so I'm definitely only speaking from limited experience.

[Chracian]

Not sure what white lions you are using but mine generally wound T3 models on a 2+

thinking of to hit, not to wound

I actually found PG to be easy to put together. It's only the halberds to stick on.

[Tribun]

So I make a conclusion:
1. Poll says clearly now PG.
2. PG minis look awesome imo
3. PG would be good against most of my favourite opponents
4. Fluff isn't such a problem, because you can also say, the PG is the bodyguard of my Prince...think of something like "Royal Templeguard of Tor Yvresse" or something...
5. Fear and wardsave plus Ini 6 and LS of 9 is something, you can't ignore.

I probably take PG, only problem is to get some of those expensive minis cheaply...ebay, I'm coming!

Thanks guys (and girls? don't know, I'm new to this place) for the tons of serious answers, this is a very good community.

[Lord Anathir]

Not sure what white lions you are using but mine generally wound T3 models on a 2+

unless you played 6th edition and had their great weapons crumbled from that lore of metal spell and had to dish it out with the good old handweapon.

[SpellArcher]

The point is that spearelves and PG have the same function - being big and holding mages. I actually like big blocks of spearmen more - but that maybe because i like throwing lots of dice, and 7-wide spearmen block is so much fun =). people tend to avoid PG blocks, knowing they cant kill anything when charging them, but people do charge spearmen blocks, thinking they can chew a large amount of points. they are almost always mistaken - spearmen blocks dont break that easy

Surely a unit like Chaos Knights will find Spears much easier to kill than PG?

Banner of Ellyrion doesnt include any character in the unit

Hmm, I'd have said it does.

Besides, WL are about my only option against units of Chaos Knights or Blood Knights...

Swordmasters with Standard of Balance are also good.

[WarpPhoenix]

I hate the concept of coming to the battlefield to die and not kill, and thats what PG do in spades. Sure they're harder to kill but when the bullet hits the target the point is that they will die, most likely all of them, because its not hard to get around a PG block problem.

There are two solutions, the first one is to engage them with anything that is designed to fight. Anything. A block of empire swordsmen with a small 9 man detatchment will make them fall over! This will usually work with any other unit too assuming the PG block doesnt reach past 20, and if it does we come to solution number two, Avoid it and make it hard for it to move around with flyers and such and it'll never make its points back, ever.

See the main problem with Elves is that they go down like a sack of bricks, if a unit of dark riders decides to open up on a unit of swordmasters then it will probably kill a fair few, however you'll only kill half of that in PG. Yeah awesome, now we still have 5 more turns and since its a big block there are a good amount of points in it, good luck keeping that unit viable the whole way through. Warhammer is a giant mind game, if your opponent sees a big block on the field then one of the previously stated solutions will come to their mind, they wont think "You know what, I'm going to run head on into that block unit."

Fear is not a big deal, at all. Its nice and it means you dont have to buy a lion standard to keep them in one spot, but on the flip side their leadership 9 is wasted on a fear causing unit, who needs LD9 when you're immune to fear? Thats where msot LD tests come from. You may say panic tests too, but you're a block of about 20 models with a 4+ ward save, not a lot of models are dying in a single phase. Oh and if anything with low enoguh leadership to fail their fear check from charging them often attempts to charge them and fails its fear check then it wouldnt have won a combat fight against one of the other 2 foot elites we have.

But dont get me wrong, story wise they are my favourite out of the two selected (swordmasters being my secret love affair), and I think they're pretty damn cool. But if you're playing to win and playing to win only then id say white lions are a MUCH more solid choice (with a lion standard of course)

EDIT: And Elyrion does effect characters in a unit, what if it was a BSB that was carrying the banner of elyrion? Would it not affect him anymore if he then joined a unit? ;p

[Allerion]

if i had to choose one infantry unit for any situation, it would be WL. I dont see the need to rehash that they are extremely versitle, and I like the idea of them sitting in a forest near the middle of the table.

[Sulla1111]

The fluff. I know, you really shouldn't choose your army for the fluff of it, but I personally love the Phoenix Guards fluff.

This. I'd go with your gut. I love the pig-headedness of White Lions, so they are my elite infantry of choice.

Same here. I go for the models I like the best (white lions) and background I like best rather than in game effectiveness for my first unit of specials I select. For the second, I will choose another unit/units to compliment them.

[SpellArcher]

Once you've got the stuff you like in the army list then you can get to work making it more efficient IMHO (or not in my case ).

It's funny though, I always find troops I love do better for me.

[White_Phoenix]

EDIT: And Elyrion does effect characters in a unit, what if it was a BSB that was carrying the banner of elyrion? Would it not affect him anymore if he then joined a unit? ;p

As far as i know, Ellyirion does not effect chars.

At first i thought it does, but it seems that it doesnt as long as it doesnt say so specifically.

the wording on Ellyrion : "The unit treats difficult ground..."

the wording on WLs : "...White Lions and any characters that are joined to their unit may..."

That's how i was told it is played - unless it is said specifically, it doesnt include units joined. if it isn't how it's played, then why would it be specified on certain things but not on others?