Banner of Sorcery

[Gramkillsfafnir]

What unit do you put it in and why?

[Prince_Asuryan]

When I take it, DP's.

Why? Because the only other unit with a magic banner I have is my WL, and they have the lion banner.

[pk-ng]

PGs then DPs then WLs then SMs

[Aderyn]

the unit that does not have war banner lion banner or standard of balance pretty much

[SpellArcher]

What pk-ng said,except Swordmasters before Lions. In fact BSB before Lions.

They lose combat too often to risk Fear-autobreaks by not taking Lion or Balance standards IMHO.

[Griffon Prince]

Either PG (since they are so resilient and numerous) or on DPs in friendlier lists.

[Pash]

PG are usually the foremost as they don't need any other banner (although War Banner is nice here), then WL as they are more of a deterrent sitting in the woods and glaring at the enemy in my army. I rarely put them on the DPs as they usually have the Banner of Ellyrion or War Banner. They're my hammer unit so they usually have a front-line role in my games.

Also, a 5-man PG unit with just a standard and the Banner of Sorcery has been quite effective in the past for me. I know it makes them expensive and not combat-worthy but they can claim table-quarters and are a cheap bunker for mages. Try it and see if it works for you, just don't expect much in terms of performance from this set up!

[Musashi]

You can also give the PG champion Skeinsliver; they're just the rear guard and aren't supposed to get into trouble, normally.

[SpellArcher]

Either PG (since they are so resilient and numerous) or on DPs in friendlier lists.

Or if you don't have PG, in a nasty list!

then WL as they are more of a deterrent sitting in the woods and glaring at the enemy in my army

This is radical. Most players I've seen get the Lions stuck straight away to road-block the enemy.

I rarely put them on the DPs as they usually have the Banner of Ellyrion or War Banner. They're my hammer unit so they usually have a front-line role in my games.

This is my one regret. I'd love to put War Banner on my DP's but there's nowhere else for Sorcery to go.

Also, a 5-man PG unit with just a standard and the Banner of Sorcery has been quite effective in the past for me. I know it makes them expensive and not combat-worthy but they can claim table-quarters and are a cheap bunker for mages. Try it and see if it works for you, just don't expect much in terms of performance from this set up!

I've seen good players get away with this but I don't know how they do it. Can HE really afford to have elite infantry that never see combat?

[Pash]

Either PG (since they are so resilient and numerous) or on DPs in friendlier lists.

Or if you don't have PG, in a nasty list!

then WL as they are more of a deterrent sitting in the woods and glaring at the enemy in my army

This is radical. Most players I've seen get the Lions stuck straight away to road-block the enemy.

I rarely put them on the DPs as they usually have the Banner of Ellyrion or War Banner. They're my hammer unit so they usually have a front-line role in my games.

This is my one regret. I'd love to put War Banner on my DP's but there's nowhere else for Sorcery to go.

Also, a 5-man PG unit with just a standard and the Banner of Sorcery has been quite effective in the past for me. I know it makes them expensive and not combat-worthy but they can claim table-quarters and are a cheap bunker for mages. Try it and see if it works for you, just don't expect much in terms of performance from this set up!

I've seen good players get away with this but I don't know how they do it. Can HE really afford to have elite infantry that never see combat?

You'd be surprised. A 5-man unit of PG with Banner of Sorcery is 137pt (ish). If they claim/contest a table quarter and give you D3 power dice per turn i'd argue they are worth it. Plus, they'll be another distraction for your opponent to deal with. 5 PG need a decent amount of firepower or force dedication to take them out completely (or, as always, luck), easing the attention off the rest of your army.

Me and my WL do not have a good relationship i'm afraid. Their L8 Stubborn just rarely manages to pass (just my luck I guess), or if they do their soft armour and lack of attacks can leave them dead in 2 combat phases. I like to sit them in a wood and deny a flank to the opponent and/or flank charge another unit. I see them more of a soft hammer unit than a good anvil. Good place for a Banner of Sorcery and/or mage in my opinion.

What sort of points are you playing usually? Larger games can have a bit more leeway with units who sit about and play defensively.

[SpellArcher]

You'd be surprised. A 5-man unit of PG with Banner of Sorcery is 137pt (ish). If they claim/contest a table quarter and give you D3 power dice per turn i'd argue they are worth it. Plus, they'll be another distraction for your opponent to deal with. 5 PG need a decent amount of firepower or force dedication to take them out completely (or, as always, luck), easing the attention off the rest of your army.

I'll take your word for it!

Me and my WL do not have a good relationship i'm afraid. Their L8 Stubborn just rarely manages to pass (just my luck I guess), or if they do their soft armour and lack of attacks can leave them dead in 2 combat phases. I like to sit them in a wood and deny a flank to the opponent and/or flank charge another unit. I see them more of a soft hammer unit than a good anvil. Good place for a Banner of Sorcery and/or mage in my opinion.

It's an interesting idea. I keep mine within 12" of the BSB and ram them down the enemy's throat. A unit of 15 lasts a while except against Black Guard etc..

What sort of points are you playing usually? Larger games can have a bit more leeway with units who sit about and play defensively

2000/2250.

[Pash]

You'd be surprised. A 5-man unit of PG with Banner of Sorcery is 137pt (ish). If they claim/contest a table quarter and give you D3 power dice per turn i'd argue they are worth it. Plus, they'll be another distraction for your opponent to deal with. 5 PG need a decent amount of firepower or force dedication to take them out completely (or, as always, luck), easing the attention off the rest of your army.

I'll take your word for it!

Me and my WL do not have a good relationship i'm afraid. Their L8 Stubborn just rarely manages to pass (just my luck I guess), or if they do their soft armour and lack of attacks can leave them dead in 2 combat phases. I like to sit them in a wood and deny a flank to the opponent and/or flank charge another unit. I see them more of a soft hammer unit than a good anvil. Good place for a Banner of Sorcery and/or mage in my opinion.

It's an interesting idea. I keep mine within 12" of the BSB and ram them down the enemy's throat. A unit of 15 lasts a while except against Black Guard etc..

What sort of points are you playing usually? Larger games can have a bit more leeway with units who sit about and play defensively

2000/2250.

In that case I think you could afford a small unit of WL or PG for BoS. Also, what sort of set-up do you find most useful for WL? I have tried 14 at 7-wide and 15 at 5-wide and neither set-up seems to work that well. I may use them as an anvil for my DP hammer unit (with the BSB with Battle Banner) next time and see how they perform. I really want to find an effective way for them to work but I just can't seem to find anything that fits my liking!

[Lord Anathir]

bsb or PG.

lions and swords need psy protection and a 5 or 6 man DP unit don't need the +50pt weight on their shoulders, and the additional +100 pts if they lose the flag. DP are easy to panic and make better use of ellyrion/warbanner if you dont want to run them naked.

I'm not a fan of PG so when I do take magic it goes on the bsb. I need the bsb no matter what, in any army setup so hes always an option.

the 5 PG in a forest is also an option, but i'm not a fan of wasting points or bodies doing nothing.

[SpellArcher]

I'm not a fan of PG so when I do take magic it goes on the bsb. I need the bsb no matter what, in any army setup so hes always an option.

I'm pretty much with you on this except I need my BSB to carry Radiant Gem for my magic set-up, which is why the DP's get Sorcery.

In that case I think you could afford a small unit of WL or PG for BoS. Also, what sort of set-up do you find most useful for WL? I have tried 14 at 7-wide and 15 at 5-wide and neither set-up seems to work that well. I may use them as an anvil for my DP hammer unit (with the BSB with Battle Banner) next time and see how they perform. I really want to find an effective way for them to work but I just can't seem to find anything that fits my liking!

I run 5x3 with Standard of Balance. The unit is built to last as long as it can, not to blow the enemy away. I've had some joy with deploying it on my weaker flank and getting stuck in so that not only are the enemy in contact held up but everything around is march-blocked and his units get generally congested. Meanwhile my fast troops get stuck in on the other flank. I know this has worked for Seredain also.

The problem I've found is against VC's, where I can take out the flanking troops but not the Vamp blocks as I need a decent unit going in frontally too, not just a cavalry flank charge. If I had Swordmasters they would be good but they don't fit the rest of my army. So I'm now going to try the Lions for this and rely on more light troops, especially Reavers with their rally and move to hold up the other wing.

Of course this unit is made of win against certain enemies, for example Blood Knights.

[Lord Anathir]

for lions i try to make them as cheap as possible with the cheap lion standard. so 10-12 with a sb only and lion standard. maybe champ and amulet of light. the reasoning behind that is that I can them use them as a sacrificary tarpit instead of being such a big investment I have to support them. for example if my opponent has 3 blocks I'll reform the lions into a single rank and move them up to get in the way, and then have swordmasters and spears gang bang the last block, usually swords in the front and the spears hitting the flank the turn later. if not spears then flanking dp will do the trick but usually they are much wider and unavailable in the larger fight. for example they were sacriiced to keep a hydra, bloodknights or abomination away for a few turns longer or whatever.

lions are good at killing characters in units or knights, but against blocks they really struggle because of their single attack apiece (as oppose to swords who excel against troopers but cant kill charcters because they dnt have stubborn and need to attack characters to generate combat res)

[SpellArcher]

for lions i try to make them as cheap as possible with the cheap lion standard. so 10-12 with a sb only and lion standard. maybe champ and amulet of light. the reasoning behind that is that I can them use them as a sacrificary tarpit instead of being such a big investment I have to support them

I've seen guys run this kind of unit, Gem of Courage is sometimes a cheap temporary substitute for BSB. It certainly makes sense for the first use I was going on about. I've thought it over and my pricier unit needs Balance I think. It's the difference between winning and dying against Blood Knights for example. Maybe you're right and my second use is the right one for this unit generally. It won't beat power units on it's own but it'll last awhile and a flank charge should tip the balance.

for example if my opponent has 3 blocks I'll reform the lions into a single rank and move them up to get in the way,

This worked brilliantly for me with Slayer Pirates in my DoW army.

[Lord Anathir]

reminds me of my early days playing agaisnt dwarfs on a 4x4. 3 foot line of slayers and 1 foot of warmachines.

[WarpPhoenix]

Dragon Princes and Dragon Princes only. Why? Because every unit that I have in my army has at least two main roles to fill. For a unit of DPs with this banner it is foremost to provide its bonus (aka not getting into losing combats and fleeing to drop the damn thing) and its secondary role is to kill small but annoying targets, much like fast cav but used more safely.

The main reason I would never but it with PG is because I would never take PG. Ever. I jsut cant see the sense in taking this unit, all they do is die. The only reason they're on the damn field (in the fluff) is because they know they're going to die today and need to be there. fair enoguh they dont go down easy, but let me tell you this. It is harder to kill chaos warriors. Why you ask? Because they have a point of tougness, a 3+ out of combat (now we have a 4+ against most MM which is only one point of save away from a PG equvilant, easily covered by the higher toughness) and a 2+ in combat, meaning that strength 5 doesn own their ass, meaning they are harder than phoenix guard against something like a Hyrda, and on top of this they kill better! Now im not saying PG should be chaos warriors, but what I am saying is you're paying for a 15 point model that can NOT kill effectively, their attacks are more of an indication that they occasionally tickle a training dummy.

Unfortunately this is the same reason I dont like big ranked up units, which is an opinion which is probably in the minority. But I find that history agrees with me, with the attention of warfare turning to small skirmish sections of the battlefield instead of two armies staring eachother down before a long and boring (from a viewers perspective) fight until all you can smell is blood and dust.

[Musashi]

I've done this between 1500 and 5000 points:

At 3000 plus, you won't feel it.

At 2000 plus, it's doubles, so I didn't feel it.

At 1500, you need at least three spells, or it won't be worth it, but it boosts your magic phase; while SMs or WLs might have a higher effect on combat, the PGs are chosen as they have a higher survival rate and less likely to run off.

[SpellArcher]

Unfortunately this is the same reason I dont like big ranked up units, which is an opinion which is probably in the minority

Tourney praxis indicates you are not in the minority!

I guess PG are a classic ranked unit in that they need full static CR and they'd quite like to get into combat to justify that 300pts plus. I am more of a fan of blocks than you are but still they are not the arm of decision for me. They have some plusses over Warriors. They are faster, more durable against war machines, cause Fear and have Ld9. Essentially though, they look like a great bunker unit, magic item carrier, anvil, in short a unit that does the dirty jobs while the flash stuff gets on with killing the enemy.

[Pash]

Unfortunately this is the same reason I dont like big ranked up units, which is an opinion which is probably in the minority

Tourney praxis indicates you are not in the minority!

I guess PG are a classic ranked unit in that they need full static CR and they'd quite like to get into combat to justify that 300pts plus. I am more of a fan of blocks than you are but still they are not the arm of decision for me. They have some plusses over Warriors. They are faster, more durable against war machines, cause Fear and have Ld9. Essentially though, they look like a great bunker unit, magic item carrier, anvil, in short a unit that does the dirty jobs while the flash stuff gets on with killing the enemy.

Correct. The fact that PG cause Fear is the one reason they are better than Warriors. Even warriors have to check to charge them. Also, if you're fighting other ASF armies, PG have the highest Initiative (equal to DPs) of the Special choices. This means that even against other HE armies they are a LOT more durable. Yes, they lack the punch but they'll be sticking around a lot more reliably than SM or WL.

To be most effective, PG really do need to be a bunker. Whether it's your Archmage or General, they'll do their job effectively. Put a mage in them - they'll stay back and be untouchable. Put a fighty Noble in them - they'll rack up CR a lot easier.

I use them as my anvil unit and I truly think there is no-one better at that job in HE army than them (Spears are a close second). However, I wouldn't suggest running more than one large unit of them per army. You just won't get the kills unless you use them VERY cleaverly!

[Lord Anathir]

dunno taking any banner on dp means you cant use them for a wide variety of suicide roles. these include a) redirecting a charge b) suiciding into a fast uni, killing something weak (like a mage on a steg) and c)hitting something slow with high static res, killing a unit champ and some wounds and them running and lkely getting away (ie, bg w/ hotek)

BSB still my first choice.

[SpellArcher]

Why do I sometimes get the feeling you're playing on another level to me LA?



Though on reflection I have sometimes used Helms for one or two of these jobs.

[geoguswrek]

LA: thats why i take three units of DP... one with a banner that i don't suicide with and two without that i can suicide with.
Oh and because my BSB has other roles to fill.

[WarpPhoenix]

Such as not dying because he's a toughness 3 model with only 2 wounds and a 2+ armour save?

[Lord Anathir]

no, geo uses his bsb on a horse with full protection and uses him to solo units. I keep my bsb on foot with sorcery near my infantry for the rerolls (i have lions, swords and spears) and provies GW attacks to the spear units. he rarely dies because I know how to protect him instead of buying gear. 2+ armor and 5+ ward doesnt keep a t3 model alive if your opponent makes a dedicated attempt at killing him.

spellarcher: nah, i doubt it. im sort of on a warhammer break due to painting and school anyways

[SpellArcher]

he rarely dies because I know how to protect him instead of buying gear. 2+ armor and 5+ ward doesnt keep a t3 model alive if your opponent makes a dedicated attempt at killing him.

I think it depends what unit he's in and how aggressive you are with it. I've noticed that my Spears+BSB generally see combat very late so I'm giving LA's approach a go with Radiant Gem. He gives re-rolls, psych protection and magic for most of the game before he actually has to get stuck in. I used to run 5+Ward and Sword of Might on my old Wood Elf BSB and rarely lost her (she too was in Spears). I was quite aggressive with the unit but it tended to be accompanied by a Treeman and/or chariot Lord which helped a lot. Plus of course things were less killy in those days!

[Lord Anathir]

when I take magic I like radiant gem on him too.