Skeinsliver

[mike newman]

people seam to love it. i was wondering why? was does it do for you?

personnaly i dont think it makes any different a good porportion of the time (some one do the maths for me?)

and i like going second. in most situations i prefer to go second. even against things like bretts - has a number of advantages

in the final turn, you can attempt to rally troops without any fear of reprisal
your opponent cant attempt to rally anything that you cause to flee thus it counts as dead
you can move units into quarters to contest or claim
you can make a last turn grab at points knowing exactly what you need for a win/draw
you can make charges without fear of any counter charges your opponent has been setting up

you get to see what your opponent is trying to do. letting him go first allows you to see how yoru opponent plans to play the game - defensivly, offesivly, where, meaning you can formulate and adapt your plan using this knowledge therefore forcing him to react to your army and what you are doing.

arguments against?

[pk-ng]

obvious to why people get skeinsilver is because they want to go first. and that's gauranteed to get +1 or +2 if you finish deployment first.

Why would you go first? Against certain armies (eg DE)
1) you want to shut down their shooting. E.g using your RBTs early on
2) make them harder to cast their magic (drain magic x1 or x2)
3) set the pace of the battle rather then been reactive
4) get into advantageous positions for your units
5) more importantly i guess it's your playstyle and your strategy and how it fits together...

[SpellArcher]

Yeah it's often taken in combination with a limited amount of units so as to go for the +2.

Going second certainly has advantages but so does going first as per pk-ng's post. I think it is useful against certain opponents. Elf v elf often turns into shooty death, so going first can be good here. Similarly, against a fast combat army it's very handy to get an extra round of shooting/magic in.

Bottom line seems to be playstyle, whether you are a counterpuncher or like to take the initiative.

[Musashi]

You're almost always likely to finish deployment first, and normally have a champion you can assign it to. And you dictate the pace of the game.

[mike newman]

shut down the shooting/limit magic i get yes. but if you deploy well then you can let them go first and limit there shooting. dark elves for example are range 24" there units have to move to shoot at long range - isnt going to be that effective turn 1, and you can limit some of it esp boltthrowers by hiding your valuable stuff. plus you should have enough magic defence to shut down the first magic phase without drain magic on fairly reliably.

as for setting the pace/being proactive not reactive i'm not sure i agree you need to go first for that. if you let your opponent go first theres only so far he can move forward with out giving you a charge with your princes/chariots/dragons. likewise if your going second the fact that you can set up your plan to counter your opponents meaning he is the one who has to react to you - where as if you go first its easy for your opponent to deny you the charges you have set up with crap units/diverters/counter charges - and then your the one on the back foot trying to remanouver. you only know where teh advantageous postions for your units truely are after you have seen where your opponent plans to move is my opinion

[Valeli]

if you deploy well then you can let them go first and limit there shooting. dark elves for example are range 24"

Sure, but if you deploy well and go first you can damage their shooting as well as making it innefective on the first turn (since you'll still be in range, whereas they won't), rather than just limiting their first turn shooting. That's basically giving you two turns to shoot their missile troops before their missile troops get a single effective turn of shooting (assuming their shooting is what you're worried about and choosing to shoot at). By the time they get to a position where they could effectively shoot, they'll probably be damaged enough it won't be effective anyways.

Other things benefit from that extra time you get going first. If you're going to play magic heavy, it usually takes a few turns to burn your opponent's scrolls. If you can get them gone one turn sooner, that can often prove a big help. And going first you're going to get to march block your opponents after their first movement phase, rather than after their second. If you're playing defensively, holding them up those extra 4+ inches can be important.

All the perks you listed to going second are just as real, of course. And you can almost guarantee the ability to go second, if you want to - it's always nice to be able to more or less count on something in your set up. It would be silly to think that going first is a negative though. At the /very/ least it's situationally useful, and the skeinsilver isn't forcing you to go first, it's just giving you a very good chance of choosing to for a bargain 25 points you can slap on a unit champion.

[Citizen Militia]

(some one do the maths for me?)

If we assume that no effort is made by either player to make an army with sufficently few deployments, skeinsliver is not taken and were not fighting brettonians, then the chance of taking the 1st turn is obviously 1/2

if we make an army with sufficiently few deployments that we guarantee we get plus one for this then the chance of taking the 1st turn is equal to 21/31

if we make an effort make our army sufficiently small AND bring skeinsliver then the chance of taking the 1st turn goes up to 13/16

Hence the last alternative if we make no effort to make our army sufficiently small and we bring skeinsliver. Then there is a 1/2 chance of it being a simple roll off, and 1/2 chance of us having plus 2. This is the difference between us having fewer deployments and our opponent having fewer deployments.

This is therefore 1/4+13/32=21/32 so roughly equal to taking sufficiently low deployments but actually slightly worse.

My best advice from the probability side of things is if you really need the first turn bring as few deployments as possible and bring skeinsliver.

[Angel]

I think it depends on what sort of player you are. Some people like to go second and some like to go first. If you belong to the later the Skeinsliver is a great item, especially if you have few drops so that you will have the +2.
Personally I like to go first because I want to take the initiative and try to make the opponent react to my moves.

[SpellArcher]

the skeinsilver isn't forcing you to go first

This is an important point. You can take it, win the roll off and go second. If your opponent wins it, he can choose to go second.

if you let your opponent go first theres only so far he can move forward with out giving you a charge with your princes/chariots/dragons.

This may not be a problem if you can profitably flee or if you are an infantry block that can take the charge.

you only know where teh advantageous postions for your units truely are after you have seen where your opponent plans to move is my opinion

I disagree. It's very hard to prove it one way or the other IMHO.

[pk-ng]

Valeli pointed out alot of counter-arguements and good points.

I heartily disagree with your deployment/reactive theory. If I go first I can push my heavy cav out to a max of 8" into the middle area while you can hardily move from your depolyment zone. I've effectively taken control of the middle forcing you to counter act me thereby setting the tone of the battle. I've limited your area of movement thereby not giving you the most desirable locations. And if I'm smart I can use your eagles/diverters to move into positions where you are forced to charged otherwise they would charge you and threat something valuable. Thereby pulling you units out of positions. I can also shutdown your magic/shooting earlier thereby punching a bigger hole with my magic/shooting with your minimal response...

grant it really depends on who you play and what is your playstyle...

if i vs other elfs i'll mostly likely want first turn...

[SpellArcher]

to make our army sufficiently small

Although this may often go with few drops it isn't a given.

Shadow Warriors, characters who are fighting units in themselves, multiple war machines for example are all ways of making your army bigger wihout increasing your number of deployments. Of course you will still finish first and hence may well be out-deployed.

You are just banking on the good chance of first turn outweighing this.

[geoguswrek]

it isn't abad item per se, i just find it difficult to find a place for it. my characters generally have items that make them more effective and i can't justify the 45 points to put it on a champion.

[SpellArcher]

It's always what to cut isn't it?

I think of games that would have gone much better if I'd had first turn and hence I'll include it. I wouldn't if it meant dropping Radiant Gem though, for example.

[Wildling04]

SpellA

It's always what to cut isn't it?

Hehe, it most certainly is.

Since going first is never certain, I never take it. I always assume, when crafting my strategy, the possibility that I'll be going second. Part of it is my philosophy as well, that I tend to like to have more drops than my opponent in deployment (though this may change with my new list), so it ends up just being a 50/50 at best with the item.

[Pash]

it isn't abad item per se, i just find it difficult to find a place for it. my characters generally have items that make them more effective and i can't justify the 45 points to put it on a champion.

The Skeinsilver is 25pts therefore perfect for that champion that's sitting in your bunker

I found myself using it for the first time last night against DE. I was able to get the +2 and take the first turn. This let me destroy his 2 RBTs and whittle down some Repeater Crossbows. This also allowed me an extra turn of shooting at the hydra.

I think the Skeinsilver is very situational. As said, it's best against other Elves but can be adapted to use in your main strategy. Having said that, I probably wouldn't take it in an all-comers list.

[SpellArcher]

I found myself using it for the first time last night against DE. I was able to get the +2 and take the first turn. This let me destroy his 2 RBTs and whittle down some Repeater Crossbows. This also allowed me an extra turn of shooting at the hydra.

Let's face it, that's who we need it against most.

[Pash]

I found myself using it for the first time last night against DE. I was able to get the +2 and take the first turn. This let me destroy his 2 RBTs and whittle down some Repeater Crossbows. This also allowed me an extra turn of shooting at the hydra.

Let's face it, that's who we need it against most.

True. Mostly, we'll be getting the +1 due to our low unit count anyway so unless your strategy focuses heavily on having the first turn (gunline/magic spam) or you have those extra 25pts (unlikely) sitting about, then I probably wouldn't bother with it.