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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:42 pm 
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So i was looking at the high elves lore again today and i want to try it out on an archmage/teclis, i think it may be a waste since i normally play offensively with these characters and theres only one MM and FoP in high magic, altho vauls unmaking can be nasty if used well

What are peoples opinions on high magic on archmage(silver wand+other)/teclis and on l2 mages aswell??

I could see arrow attraction being quite nice obviously having the archers as cores and a couple RBT's, i normally play DE or LM so it could be gd against those skinks, or even those single RBT shots on nasty cold one riders.

Love to hear some personal opinions and experiences with it if anyone has any and against which armies

Thanks for reading


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:52 pm 
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Mostly I only take high magic when I think I need drain magic. It's not to say that I don't think it is a good lore. It has a lot of utility, but other lores are often more useful against specific opponents. I often take high magic on one mage against vamps and lizards regularly. Whether it is on my level 4 or level 2 depends on what other spells I need. For example, if I go against a lizard army, beast cowers is one I always like to have, so my archmage takes high magic and my level 2 takes beasts since he often has the seerstaff.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:03 pm 
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i agree, its good against undead, for obvious reasons (and vauls unmaking makes the vampire lord just mildly vulnerable, which is nice), and sometimes against magic heavy armies. other than that i barely ever take it, preferring metal, death or beasts most of the time (and sometimes fire for against those skaven armies).

Ps use six shooting from an rbt on 2+ save cav. (unless you have a flank shot and need to remove a lot of the unit at once)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:18 am 
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High on a Seermage gives you a nice pick of Drain, Curse and Fury for example.

If I were facing a Dragon though I'd go straight for Beasts. Against twin Stank I'd go straight for Heavens.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:43 am 
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heaven? :P lore of metal! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:22 am 
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High magic to me is more an archmage's lore than a lvl 2. The reason being is what it takes to get the spells off. An archmage (or Teclis) have the ability to throw enough dice at the lore to make it as effective as possible. If you must take it a lvl 2, I'd say only stick with Curse and Fury to make the mage play a role in something other than the magic phase.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:47 am 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
High magic to me is more an archmage's lore than a lvl 2. The reason being is what it takes to get the spells off. An archmage (or Teclis) have the ability to throw enough dice at the lore to make it as effective as possible. If you must take it a lvl 2, I'd say only stick with Curse and Fury to make the mage play a role in something other than the magic phase.



Though if you simply know you are going for Drain Magic or have the seerstaff (as you should) it can easily work on a level 2, as there are still several spells that he can get off, as you mentioned.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:59 am 
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This weekend I've tried flames of phoenix+drain magic combo and the result was hot! Also, shield of Saphery offers good protection. And Vaul's unmaking can be very useful in certain situations.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:43 am 
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I almost always use the high lore on at least one of my mages. Either on the L.2 with seerstaff so that he can pick what's useful or on the L.4 with the silver wand. High Magic has so many useful spells so there is always something to cast from it.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:18 am 
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Wow thanks for the quick and numerous replies guys =D>

I agree with the seerstaff lvl2 idea i might give it a go, maybe even have teclis take it aswell just so hes not too overpowered and blasting half the enemy army alone haha

So another 2 questions then...Which are your two prefered spells for a lvl 2?
........................................Which two/three spells per turn would you try with archmage/teclis?

Thanks for replies again, keep em coming


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:00 am 
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For level 2: fury of Khaine, shield of Saphery/arrow attraction
For archmage: flames of phoenix + drain magic, as I've already mentioned. Or fury+flames. Or something else :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:02 am 
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Aderyn wrote:
heaven? lore of metal!

That holds for an Archmage who can throw four dice at Spirit IMHO. The Seermage is my main caster, so he needs spells he can get off on three dice. That makes Portent and Second Sign the best bet to help my RBT chew through Stanks.

High is also a good choice for a level 1. Shield is good because it's 18", no LOS and usually benefits something. Drain on 2 dice is chancy but it's a useful option for those rare times Shield is no good or your level 2 only has one useful cast.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:54 pm 
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I really like Forked Lightning and Uronan's Thunderbolt on a Seer lvl2. Unlimitid range is just too good to miss. Ofc they are just magic missiles, but I really enjoy the "range", and no as is also great!


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:45 pm 
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my seermage takes beasts most of the time, since if he is the main caster he'll be on a chariot, it gives him something to cast wolf hunts at every turn.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:06 pm 
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i only ever take it for drain magic. the other lores just offer spells that can be far more devestationg to your opponent. spirt, pit, lurker, wall of fire etc etc generally i take fire when i just want lots of damage or shadows - which i personally rate as the best law if you build your army for it. steed on my battle banner bsb, pit, lurker on dragon princes, cause fear when you need immunity :D

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:20 am 
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Most of these are 11+ spells.

Do you think an Archmage is needed or would you throw three dice at them on the 50/50 of getting a powerful spell off?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:37 am 
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Palinux wrote:
I really like Forked Lightning and Uronan's Thunderbolt on a Seer lvl2. Unlimitid range is just too good to miss. Ofc they are just magic missiles, but I really enjoy the "range", and no as is also great!


They aren't magic missile. They are just spells. So you can still cast it if you're in combat!

High magic is pretty good. Like I got double high sometimes and caster either Fury of Khaine twice with also
2 drain magic (if i get 11 PD)s + i have ring of fury. it's devastating. I once shutdown this HEs magic with 2 drain magic and he had 1x AM 2x Lvl 2.

High Magic is more of a defensive lore with some offensive spell which can help alot if used properly. E.G Vaul's Unmaking on Black Guard! bye bye ASF banner!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:19 am 
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[quote="pk-ng"]
They aren't magic missile. They are just spells. So you can still cast it if you're in combat!/quote]

i'm not sure if thats true i dont have my rulebook on me. but even so you still need line of sight to cast them, which you cant get out of the combat.


as for the big spells. yes and no. i would throw three dice from a lvl 2 at them if either - my opponent had no defense left and getting it off was worthwhile, or if i had the same spell on a lvl 4, once on 4/5dice once on 3.

you have to be lucky to cast the big spells with lvl2's, was this up against failing an therefore both not casting anything and leaving your opponent with more dispel dice to use agaisnt other spells, from my opinion its rarely worth attempting it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:28 am 
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mike newman wrote:
pk-ng wrote:
They aren't magic missile. They are just spells. So you can still cast it if you're in combat!/quote]

i'm not sure if thats true i dont have my rulebook on me. but even so you still need line of sight to cast them, which you cant get out of the combat.


I think the original post on this was regarding a steam tank which you actually can since it is a large target. They aren't magic missiles.


mike newman wrote:
as for the big spells. yes and no. i would throw three dice from a lvl 2 at them if either - my opponent had no defense left and getting it off was worthwhile, or if i had the same spell on a lvl 4, once on 4/5dice once on 3.

you have to be lucky to cast the big spells with lvl2's, was this up against failing an therefore both not casting anything and leaving your opponent with more dispel dice to use agaisnt other spells, from my opinion its rarely worth attempting it.


I'll often take a 8+ or lower and a 10+ or higher with the seerstaff and not necessarily cast the higher one. However, the threat of the big one often allows me to get off other spells.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:37 am 
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I take a seermage for pretty much one sole reason: when i come up against a dragon i need the reliable double casting of beast cowers.

Oh and if you have a lot of cavalry in your army, wolf hunts is a really nasty spell.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:47 am 
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Since my usual games are 3K plus, usually at least 5K per side, magic becomes are huge factor, and my magic phase strategy is usually based around Drain Magic, while waiting either for the point when my opponent's magic potential falls to the point where our side's Dispel Die can accommodate any of their spellcasting, or a situation that makes using Vaul's Unhappiness and Kentucky Fried Chicken worth dropping the magic shield.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:59 am 
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So it may be that High Magic is a good utility Lore for hero level casters. With an Archmage only certain enemies require Flames or Vaul's so he may be better off going for a book lore against the others.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:47 pm 
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High magic definitely has some good aspects. I agree that it is primarily useful versus counts or other magic heavy armies where drain magic is a very threatening spell. I would almost always take it on one mage versus magic focused vc, and usually the archmage if i can reasonably assume that my opponent has the helm of command, drakenhoff, or the skull staff, all of which are very nasty and decrease the VC effectiveness significantly if disenchanted.
High magic is also of not for the high number of long range spells requiring no line of sight. 6 of the 7 spells are 18 or more inch range with no line of sight. There is a lot to be said for non los spells as they allow you to hide and protect the mage without having to significantly alter your maneuvers The exception is a standard magic missile which is frequently somewhat useful itself. Aside from VC, I've used it to good effect vs dark elves actually. Flames of the phoenix is very dangerous for shades trying to march block and harass on the flanks or to hunt warmachines. Because of the 24 inch range the archmage can hit shades pretty much regardless of where they strike from. Shield of saphery can also be good vs the dark elves. I once had a unit of swords with a foltharith's robe archmage hold up a unit for 20 black guard with bsb for 3-4 turns until a phoenix guard unit with my bsb flanked them and slowly ground them down. Without shield they would have died much earlier and not had retaliatory attacks with which to kill the hotek champ. My opponent almost had to let it off, because my lvl 2 had cowers and hunts and would have taken allowed my dps to take down the hydra and circle around to the rear of the DE line.

In the High elf book high magic seems to be portrayed as some kind of meta-magic able to control matter, energy, and space-time generally, as opposed to locally controlling a specific kind of matter or energy like the rulebook lores. In practice there is little to support this fluff, and high magic is not really as potent in fulfilling any of its roles as a dedicated rulebook lore is. In a lot of situations rulebook lores will be a superior choice. Beasts against dragons or monsters if you have a good amount of cav, Metal vs Wizards of Chaos, shadow vs dwarves, death for general destruction, or heavens for RBT support on a seer lvl 2.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:08 pm 
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Cythis wrote:
High magic is also of not for the high number of long range spells requiring no line of sight.

This is why for me in isolation High Magic is a good Lore and Skaven Plague for instance, isn't. It is also key to a minimalist phase with hero level casters. Such a phase has a limited spell repertoire, so it's very important to get spells you can cast to effect every phase.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:46 pm 
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Cythis wrote:
High magic definitely has some good aspects. I agree that it is primarily useful versus counts or other magic heavy armies where drain magic is a very threatening spell.
Drain magic is never threatening, it is purely defensive.


Flames of the phoenix is very dangerous for shades trying to march block and harass on the flanks or to hunt warmachines. Because of the 24 inch range the archmage can hit shades pretty much regardless of where they strike from.
Wait... you cast a 12+ spell to do 5 s3 hits?
.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:12 pm 
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I think that drain magic is a very threatening spell to VC. Essentially, that spell kills half of their skeletons (since they can't raise as many!). I assume by threatening, he means worriesome to an opponent?


Last edited by Wildling04 on Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Fury of Khaine is much better against light units than Flamesof the Phoenix, keep it for his large blocks.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:24 pm 
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I don't think it is at all true that drain is purely defensive. You aren't considering the fight versus VC in the holistic view where if they cannot easily heal units damaged from magic/shooting and prolonged combats they loose very quickly. This is less true with vamps who have a lot of combat oriented characters, but I was talking about magic focused VC as an application for high magic. Vs magic heavy VC drain is a high threat spell like spirit vs warriors or what have you. I mean that they can't afford to ignore it in the slightest so they are more likely to let other spells through.

As for shades, dark elves have only 4 special slots and shades are not necessarily fielded in minimum size because of this. Larger shade units can also be carriers of assassins. I found flames a effective vs a larger unit of them because I was fighting a caddy + hotek setup (very common). In this case my opponent had to scroll flames or let it go as he had beast cowers and hunts to worry about, and I was 4 dicing it (flames). I never got it off but I did get off cowers, hunts, and shield, as he was trying to dice cowers and scroll flames.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:17 pm 
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unless you have the book of hoeth or teclis, you won't get drain off until turn 3 against vc (excepting irresistables) by which point, if they are magic focussed, they will have enough models that it won't really matter if you reduce their casting potential a little bit, they'll still be mainly casting van-hels.

The correct way to play a ring of hotek army is to take metal on everyone, and mass casts of rule of burning iron at who ever has the ring.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:48 pm 
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geoguswrek wrote:
Wait... you cast a 12+ spell to do 5 s3 hits?

Well...it's half the unit and a panic test on something that can be hard to touch.

orka wrote:
Fury of Khaine is much better against light units than Flamesof the Phoenix, keep it for his large blocks.

But Fury needs LOS.

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