Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

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Jeroen
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Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#1 Post by Jeroen »

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and to High Elves in general. Haven't played WHFB for many years and decided to give it a go again and buy the HE battallion and the army book.

While still busy painting core troops, i found out on this and other forums that Silver Hilms (that patiently wait uncut in their plastic sprues of my battallion box) are not considered a good option sice the 'new' book. I found some posts that discussed the Silver Helms role but most of these posts where written after the new book came out.

So my question: are there any people who still use them anyway?

And if so: do you mainly use them with bigger battles (since you have more special slots to spend and have the luxury to go ' diverse')
Or do you manly use them at small battles because they are a bit cheaper?
Or is it just a mather of the type of army you are up against?

Gonna paint them anyway, but i'm just curious how you people experience their role in a battle.

Thanx!

Jeroen
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Sturen
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#2 Post by Sturen »

Welcome to the forum and High Elves!

They are best in small games because lots of DPs are very expensive, however in large games they can be taken in large numbers (10+) for the static combat res. A similar unit of DPs would be far too expensive so that is a possiblility. However since you only have the battalion the you only have 8 you could proxy or convert them to DPs. I proxy my SHs all the time :D
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Jeroen
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#3 Post by Jeroen »

Ah, thanx! I'm sorry, im not English native. What is 'to proxy'? Saying they are DP's without the converting?
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Sturen
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#4 Post by Sturen »

Yeah, using the SHs as DPs without conversions is proxying :)
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#5 Post by Valeli »

Basically, if you don't armor them up all the way, you can get some (fairly) cheap cavalry with a not-awful (but not good) save that keeps good movement and has some strength five hits on the charge (which you still should be getting more often than not). If you armor them up fully, they end up costing almost as much as dragon princes, who are better in every possible way, and with both in the special section, that's just absurd.

Keeping them cheap is nice, since it frees up options elsewhere in the list. And while dragon princes are clearly better point for point, silver helms can still do some of the same tasks equally well (ramming into flanks, taking out lighter flankers the enemy is sending at you, ramming into war machines, etc). You just loose the ability to run into certain units head on and expect a win. You also loose the ability to ignore flaming attacks, which can proove to be an absolutely fantastic attribute against tzeench lists, etc. They are cheap enough you can possibly use them as a bait and flee unit with some success. And they won't make you grimace as much when a bolt thrower or warmachine lands on top of them.

If you're playing defensively and want a few fast counter charge units, maybe they'll be helpful. You don't have to be as frustrated about keeping them behind forests or cover somewhere while the enemy approaches you since they're taking up less points in your list. Those points can find you an extra small unit of sword masters, or a bolt thrower maybe.

But honestly, I've almost always just used mine as dragon princes.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#6 Post by Wildling04 »

5 silver helms (w/shield) with no command can be useful and aren't terrible. They're not nearly as point efficient as 5 dragon princes with no command, but if you are trying to save a few points, it can be done.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

I run a unit of 5 with a 3+ Save and full command which is simply a less efficient version of 5 naked DP's. I still find them effective in a medium comped environment however. On the extreme of my attacking flank they generally beat what they're up against and cause trouble.

If you want to do this more cost-effectively, the 115pt unit specified by Wildling is all good.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#8 Post by Siegfried VII »

In my opinion the 2+ armour save is the only way to go with Silver Helms, since it's their only quality.

If I were to go with less armour I would prefer a unit of Ellyrian Reavers.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#9 Post by Griffon Prince »

Hey there

Every time I fielded a unit of 5 helms with shields, I tended to win more often than not. I have never once regretted fielding them. They are a great troubleshooting unit. They aren't as expensive as Dps and have far better armor saves than Reavers. I've used them to flank, hunt warmachines even bait.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#10 Post by Valeli »

far better armor saves than Reavers
That's definitely something medium cavalry has going for it. I like reavers, and their ease of move is lovely, but they die sooo easily to a goblin short bow on up. And reavers aren't exactly cheap units either.

One issue with silverhelms in their current incarnation is that it's just really hard to put a specific value on the "flexibility" afforded by taking them over dragon princes, whereas it's much much simpler to associate values with specific statistics like attacks, or attributes like being immune to fire. I think that people (myself included) tend to shy away from things they can't easily evaluate when an alternative that's easily evaluated positively is present.

Does the flexibility of helms make up for the attribute dragon princes have? I don't really know. I've generally assumed not, but it's been an assumption.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#11 Post by Luna Guardian »

Personally, I find the only cavalry unit we have to be of use to be the Ellyrian Reavers. The Silver Helms are victims of competition (and dull background) and the dragon boys...yeah, the dragon boys.

If you want a fast, hard hitting unit, take the White Lion Chariot
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#12 Post by Wildling04 »

Valeli wrote:

Does the flexibility of helms make up for the attribute dragon princes have? I don't really know. I've generally assumed not, but it's been an assumption.
Really? It's not even close. I've said 5 helms can be useful only if you are looking to save points in your army list. Otherwise, look at what you get for 154 points of silver helms (shields and a high helm) vs. 150 points of dragon princes (as close to comparable points values as you can get).

The dragon princes have LD 9, 3 more attacks from the DPs at WS 5 (which in the current army book situation, is a huge advantage), and immunity to fire. The silver helms have one more wound while everything else (MV, AS, S, etc..) is even.

This alone should tell you that the only reason to take silver helms is because you are trying to save some points for something somewhere else. Are they an awful unit? No, but as has been pointed out many times before, they've essentially been made obsolete.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#13 Post by Siegfried VII »

To be clear I only use Silver Helms in addition to Dragon Princes and not instead of them. In ETC format you can only use the same special choice twice, so after two units of Dragon Princes Silver Helms come as a nice addition to increase your fast hard hiting units.

@Luna: Lion Chariots are cool but calling them a fast unit when they can't march is wrong. Sure they have 16 inches charge, but they cannot effectively chase enemy units.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#14 Post by Luna Guardian »

Siegfried VII wrote:@Luna: Lion Chariots are cool but calling them a fast unit when they can't march is wrong. Sure they have 16 inches charge, but they cannot effectively chase enemy units.
I think this is a matter of opinion. While it's true that their mobility is hampered by difficult terrain (but to be honest, who's going to take even normal cavalry into difficult terrain?) and that they can't march, in my books the 16" charge makes them a fast unit. THere aren't that many units in the game (save for cavalry and flying critters) that can run away from a WLC
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#15 Post by Siegfried VII »

When I wrote the word "chase" I meant that a chariot needs more time to reach its target than a cavalry unit that can march. Especially if the enemy unit wants to get away from it. I did not mean when it charges but during its approach. :wink:
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#16 Post by Valeli »

Really? It's not even close. I've said 5 helms can be useful only if you are looking to save points in your army list. Otherwise, look at what you get for 154 points of silver helms (shields and a high helm) vs. 150 points of dragon princes (as close to comparable points values as you can get).
This is basically exactly the type of comparison I'm talking about, though. If you compare the two units point by point like this, you're absolutely right. There's no good reason to take silver helms. My point is that this isn't necesarily the only way to compare them - it's just that the other type of comparison is really amorphous and hard to come to grips with, so people tend not to make it.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

I think the reason for taking Silver Helms is when you have 115pts free in your list and not 150.

Chariots do have the pivot maneouvrability going for them.

Helms are also worth a look if you're building a big bus unit with characters.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#18 Post by Jeroen »

Thanx for all your comments and input. Like i said, i'm going to paint them anyway and i will think i will use them in a big bus unit. With shields :-)
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#19 Post by Aderyn »

big bus unit of silverhelms... sounds expensive, use dragonprinces instead.

A little tip is that you can buy greenstuff and "pimp up" the silverhelms so that they look more "dragonprincy". Or put the riders on cold one's :P.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#20 Post by Wildling04 »

Aderyn wrote:big bus unit of silverhelms... sounds expensive, use dragonprinces instead.

A little tip is that you can buy greenstuff and "pimp up" the silverhelms so that they look more "dragonprincy". Or put the riders on cold one's :P.
If you are building a big bus (for numbers/banners with a hero), silver helms are probably the way to go as at that size, dps get way to expensive for what you are paying for.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#21 Post by Citizen Militia »

I'm with seigfried on this one, suppose in the extreme case where we are facing a gunline and are trying to assult it as fast as possible before they rip us to shreds... We want to build a fast paced army and deploy as far forward as we can and take skeinsliver ect, but what units should it include?

Dragon princes and silver helms, in 2 turns can move and charge up to a total of 32 inches...

Tiranocs, in 2 turns can move and then charge up to a total of 27 inches...

The white lion chariot is falling hopelessly short of its target having only managed to get 24 inches...

I admit the WLC isn't bad; it hits hard and it causes fear, but to call it a 'fast' unit is I think flattering it somewhat, I would say its only really good if you can force the enemy into charge range. Dragon princes can actively cross the board and go on the hunt for their intended target, if you put the ellyrion banner on them they can move and even charge through difficult terrain

What were you saying about useless dragonboys luna? [-X they are probably the best unit we have
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#22 Post by Finreir of chrace »

I use them against gunlines since they will be able to break units easily and have a 2+ save.
They are also much cheaper than dragon princes so when they eventually die, my opponent gets less points... :roll:
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#23 Post by Luna Guardian »

Aderyn wrote:big bus unit of silverhelms... sounds expensive, use dragonprinces instead.
A big unit of Dragon boys? Sounds vainglorious, use White Lion Chariots instead :wink:
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#24 Post by geoguswrek »

if silverhelms couldtake a banner they would be takeable, without they frustrate me just a little bit.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#25 Post by Flame of the Asuryan »

Finreir of chrace wrote:I use them against gunlines since they will be able to break units easily and have a 2+ save.
They are also much cheaper than dragon princes so when they eventually die, my opponent gets less points... :roll:

Problem is: When they reach the archers, they do not have as much as an impact as dragon princes...
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#26 Post by Larkspire »

One thing I have noticed about SH is that they are our cheapest form of heavily armored mobile unit strength.
You get US 10 for 115 pts, a better deal than any other unit in the army.
you can reliably break ranks from up to 16",and are tough enough to deprive the enemy of easy wounds.
If you've got'em stuck in,the extra US may even give outnumber,that plus the flank will likely roll up a great deal of of non-stubborn/unbreakable folk.
They're also cheap enough to be disposable.use'em to kamikaze gunlines.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#27 Post by Aderyn »

i can't see how anyone would want to use silverhelms over dragon princes for pointcost in any kind of game apart from really really really low point games.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#28 Post by pk-ng »

I've seen this HE gneeral brought in 2x 5 SH and 1x 6 DP for his tourny and came first.
He also had the usual Prince Star Dragon setup.

Bit surprised he had them but goes to show that SH might have some value?
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#29 Post by Griffon Prince »

I stand by my Silver boys, they've never let me down. I started using them again about a year and a half ago and while I don't field them in every game, I tend to do better with them than not. I'm a fan of having more boots on the ground than the standard HE list. Helms give me the points I need to take more troops.
Now, if you want 2 knight units in your list, try this; 6 DPs, Banner of Ellyrion and 5 Helms with shields. This gives you a solid hammer and a cheap, resilient troubleshooter.
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Re: Er... Silver Helms, anybody?

#30 Post by Wildling04 »

pk-ng wrote:I've seen this HE gneeral brought in 2x 5 SH and 1x 6 DP for his tourny and came first.
He also had the usual Prince Star Dragon setup.

Bit surprised he had them but goes to show that SH might have some value?

It makes for a fast army and two very cheap units that can move fast and take out warmachines or flank charge with the DPs/SD. With the Star Dragon out and three units of heavy cav (and whatever else) it makes for quite few targets and only one turn to take them out in.
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