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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:19 am 
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First off: did i spell that right?

Sceondly: Hello and welcome to February's enemy of the month thread, sorry its a day late, life got in the way of warhammer (unnacceptable!). This month we will be discussing the Bretonians. Dealing with pillars of knights that come crashing into our lines.

I will start by stating the obvious: While either of our sandard lord choices: an archmage or a stardragon are very useful here as either can dismantle entire lances on his own (spirit of the forge and flank charges respectively), other elements of our lists are also helpful. White lions perform a sterling role since if they do fail on the charge, brets have little other than ranks and armour saves, so with the help of a flank charge we can break them relatively quickly. Also, bolt throwers are pretty effective since they deny the bret's 5+ wardsave (instead only allowing a 6+)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:48 am 
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White lions perform a sterling role for two reasons, firstly if they kill a knight with their asf attacks (not unlikely with s6) they have lots less attacks at them (by the wording of the lance rule since you have killed one knight, the knights behind him are no longer eligible to strike either).


Where do you read this in the Bretonnia army book?
Should the armybook be "interpreted" like this:
Under "The Lance in Combat": "In addition to this, every Knight model in the flanks of the unit is allowed to fight, as long as they are directly behind a model in the front rank which is engaged in close combat to its front", so if you kill a model with you ASF guy, you would theoretically remove the model from the front row, and therefore the models in the flank are no longer "behind a model which is engaged in close combat to its front", and therefore the models in the flank can no longer fight? Right?

I've never played this way, so my elves always gets massacred by charging knights even if they kill a few, since the rest of the knights got to attack anyway. But if we've been playing it wrong, then is's only good news! =D>


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Even if you kill the knight in the front, the ones behind him still strike.

Still, WL are great against them. The major skill you need to learn is how to re-direct with eagles and SW.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:45 pm 
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corrected above, good catch, my apologies.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Tactics:

Redirect and flank charge. Easy as that :)
White lions are excellent because of stubborn, but i would leave PG and especially SM at home.

For the lord choice the Star Dragon is much better, even double dragon is a pain to Brets since they have very low leadership and very few ways to deal with the dragon.

When firing Bolt throwers always shoot 6 shots, much greater chances of wounding.

Beware of the flying circus! 4 units of pegasus! Those things are the first thing you should kill.

And don`t get suprised if you don`t kill anything on the charge since Bretonnian players are good at rolling saves :)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:35 pm 
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geoguswrek wrote:
Also, bolt throwers are pretty effective since they deny the bret's 5+ wardsave (instead only allowing a 6+)


Having never played them why does an RBT knock a tick off the ward? How are they in the magic phase? Anything to look out for there?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Based on real play experience : White Lions.
I used to run multiple units of 10 or so against Bretts...if you have BSB near, you certainly win the game.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
geoguswrek wrote:
Also, bolt throwers are pretty effective since they deny the bret's 5+ wardsave (instead only allowing a 6+)


Having never played them why does an RBT knock a tick off the ward? How are they in the magic phase? Anything to look out for there?


Bretonnians have a 5+ ward save against strength 5 or more hits and 6+ ward save for strength 4 or less hits, ergo rbt shots (strength 4 armour piercing) is the way to go.

As for magic I must say that there is no magic in Bretonnian armies. If by any accident you see a bretonnian list with magic rejoice, for it will be not a very powerful list.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:40 pm 
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Quote:
corrected above, good catch, my apologies.


well, it was almoste tooooo good to be true!

But yeah, stubborn WL rock against brets. Except when they flee due to trebuchet shots, because they fail a LD 9 panic test :S

Really, Trebuchets are a pain in the ass, but maybe my opponent is just too lucky with those things.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:41 pm 
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lucky it is really hard to Brets to catch an eagle heading just about anywhere, their shooting is too bad in general, not to mention not wanting to move because of the stakes in the ground and sometimes the bow fire will be flaming, which is even better for us. Just bend to the knights, usually you can let them go where they want but sometiems you'll want to sacrifice a unit of archers and mow down a units of knights, easily managable in turns of combat with our ASF (we always do well against armies that need the charge to win)

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:12 pm 
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I may well be playing a Bretts player fairly soon, so this is very timely. We are only at fairly small games atm though, so no lords. I was going to try and make the most of my magic, since I know he always has hardly any. Have used Lore of Beasts successfully against him in the past, when picking my spells and taking Beast Cowers, although I thought I may try Lore of Metal this time (worked against Chaos knights) although he is very good at making ward saves! Sadly he always has a few dispell scrolls at the ready these days but could still be worth a try.

Other than white lions who have been mentioned a bit, are any other infantry units any good at handling a charge from a unit of 6-8 knights? And anyone have experience of how dragon princes do? I didn't have many units last time I played him so have no idea how they would fare on average.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:34 am 
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big lances of bret knights have a rule, it is "only charge our flanks or rear" Obey that and anything in the list is fine. no unit in our list can reliably take the charge from a lance of knights, except maybe white lions with their stubborn.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:54 am 
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Palinux wrote:
stubborn WL rock against brets. Except when they flee due to trebuchet shots, because they fail a LD 9 panic test

Standard of Balance is your friend!

Anyone been stung by the Mirror?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:02 pm 
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Remember they'll have scroll caddys which will give the unit they join MR so take that into consideration.

In general if you receive a charge head-on you're pretty much screwed unless he/she fluff her rolls (apart from WLs).

Flank and use beast cowers to your advantage. Out maneuvre him as best you can and flank charge him.

His PKs will be a big threat to your Bolt Throwers so deploy them into forest if possible. It'll take them at least 3 turns to get to you.

From experience DP do OK against Bret in a front charge (obviously you need to get the charge off). Against a unit of 9 knights you should do OKish but anymore you might have a problem. I know I have a friend who has a group of 12 KEs and damn they hurt. Esp with banners that gives +1S to the knights and another to horses it's crazy!

If you go the magic path most likely go metal and beast which will do you wonders.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:56 pm 
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ok basically:

- good bret armies will have enough peasant bowmen and trebs to outshoot us. they may not be so accurate, but they will hurt anything they hit. so while most brett armies will rush forward right away, the experienced players wont always do so. so dont count on it.

- peg knights are automatically your first target, simply because of their mobility, speed and hitting power. if he has a lord on peg try to kill the peg from under him

- while lions are good, the brett player isnt just going to charge into them with a single unit in the middle of the board. relying on this won't end well because he'll end up throwing 2 lances and a characters into them and will have enough hitting power to drop a unit of 10 lions in 1 round or 2.

- static combat res is important for us. the hidden danger of brett lances is the amount of CR characters can produce. numbers, ranks, banner, bsb, warbanner, and duties. I once had 14 swords in the flank of one of those units and I couldnt break him in time. spear elf support is necessary but dont let them take a charge.

- important point #1: fight the game around terrain. lances really struggle to move around forests. our infantry go through faster and white lions dont care. eagle redirections into terrain will stop a lance for number of turns and leave it liable to a charge.

-eagles can prevent charges by stopping the back end of the lance from wheeling.

- magic is unreliable. I find that brett players have 2 caddies most of the time.

- so to recap: shooting/magic into pegs, redirect big lances, elite infantry solo small lances, forests are your friends, spear elves are good support but not for solo fighting.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:51 am 
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Lord Anathir wrote:
important point #1: fight the game around terrain. lances really struggle to move around forests. our infantry go through faster and white lions dont care. eagle redirections into terrain will stop a lance for number of turns and leave it liable to a charge

I used to fight Bretonnians with Wood Elves. Theoretically it's a bad match-up as they are fast and arrow-resistant but in practice terrain and adroit use of skirmishers let me outmaneouvre them more often than not. They simply hated the Acorn, that let you create a wood mid-game.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:53 am 
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Of all the armies, Brets like the charge more than any others. Of any, we care the least about being charged. Doesn't mean we should let our guards down, or be lax. If we can take a charge against one of their lances, we go from simply beating them to absolutely messing the feckers up. (depending on our unit)

I would generally put my chips down in a one on one with the heroes of their army, in duels between theirs and ours. As such, I lore of metal their champions that are accompanying the bigger characters. It's a spell that they are more likely to let through when compared to many of our other, bigger spells. This way, for at least a round, I can keep his characters away from mine, use mine to mow down his knights, and hopefully break his unit. If I can't manage that, I would rather destroy regiments with mages or no characters. (though good luck finding a poorly defended mage)

Limiting their lines of fire is important if they took a lot of shooting, but if they won't move forward, you can charge units of archers with eagles or other fast movers. You'll probably lose, but they stand a good chance of losing a round of shooting while you sprint forward. You can probably tie them up for 1-2 rounds before the turkey dies or gets CRd to fleeing.

Being stuck in in melee against Brets is one of the best places you can be. Don't be too intimidated by them, and be more agressive than they would expect.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:21 am 
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they are afraid of rubber lance syndrome so if you can hold 'em up for more then 1 turn you should be able to beat them eventually if they don't charge you in the rear/flank

one thing peoeple should know that if you issue a challenge brettonia (usually) need to accept because if they don't the unit (yes the unit) loses their blessing!

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:58 pm 
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So I have a 2250 battle against Brets who whipped me last game. Our lists are set (escalation league). I am wondering what people would suggest bringing for magic. I have a L4 w/Silver Wand, Fury, Power Stone and a L2 w/ Seer, scroll. He has a L1 w/ extra DD.

For the rest of his army, he has a treb, 18 archers, 3 peg knights, 3 blocks of KoR/KE, 1 Grail Knights, 2 small fast cav knights, Grail Rel.
I have, 3 RBT, Eagle, 13 WL, 14 PG w/ Sorc. 14 SM w/ Balance, Tir Ch. 10 spears, 10 archers, noble w/ ench. sh and Blade of Sea Gold

I can't decide between Metal, High (for CoAA and ward) and Beasts. Or some other combo. Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Gildor777 wrote:
I can't decide between Metal, High (for CoAA and ward) and Beasts. Or some other combo. Thoughts?

Maybe Metal on the Archmage (Spirit of the Forge on a Knight unit, Rule of Burning Iron on a Paladin, Transmutation of Lead to guarantee an acute case of Rubber Lance Syndrome :D) Maybe Beasts for the Mage, pick Beast Cowers and Hunters Spear.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:22 am 
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first off i would swap the arcane items around. give your AM the DS and give your Seermage the PS. As Kethnae has said pick metal on your AM and pick beast on your Seermage.

Assuming you get first turn deploy as far back as possible. Let him come to you. Deploy your RBTs in trees if you can to give them some protection against the PKs. Archers shoot the fast cav then archers then probably the Grail Rel. Ignore the treb it'll probably blow up by turn 3 if not use your eagle to kill it only IF you don't need to redirect charges (which you probably will). Spirit oh forge his KoR/KE on turn 1 and Beast cowers the PKs (assuming he deployed his PKs out of LoS). Multi-shot on his knights and try and cause a panic test. Stay as far back and out of LoS as possible for your infrantry units (apart from your PGs which should be deploy right up into your deployment zone so on turn 1 the unit and move up 1" - 5" and your mage has good LoS and with range for his spells). Shoot shoot magic magic as much as possible. Bait with your WLs and Eagle for the impetitous charges. He'll be minorly afraid of the Tir chariot as it has a longer charging arch so make sure you are deployed at the flank and try and flank a group of knights so you can front charge with your infantry. First few turns you'll should really cast Rule of Burning Iron, Spirit of Forge and Beast Cowers. Once his PKs are in the open. Shoot it, magic it down asap. At this point it'll come down to how much you kill before he has charged.... and how well you re-directed :P

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:18 am 
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Yup, that is the basic idea. It sounds like metal and beasts is the way to go. A lot will depend on the terrain--we usually have another person set it out for our games. If I can get some constriction points I might be ok, if its wide open I am in trouble. I can probably knock off a couple knight blocks, but more than that before he hits my lines is going to be tough. I have always hated playing Brets.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:37 am 
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I once versused a Bret army in a tournament which had like 6 blocks of knights 7 including PKs. Luckily I had 2 eagles and fast cav to do alot of much need redirecting!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Most Bretonnian lists are cavalry heavy so they will try to close in fast and punch holes in our lines, their knights hit hard and are hard to kill.

As a Brett player in the past I usually pray to get the Ward Save on the Knights.

We can use this to our advantage by moving first which helps with our Magic & Shooting phases as well as positioning our re-directing units.

Bretonnians peasants have Longbows with the same range as us, and what they lack in Ballistic skill they will make up for in numbers (they cost half our archers price). These archers are a genuine nuisance to High Elf armies with our T3 and low AS's. So keep SM's well protected our out of sight/range until the Brett archers are dealt with. Panic tests on their archers will make them run unless a knight unit is close by.

High Elf Magic
The Bretonnian Magic phase is usually weak and most Bretonnians will go Magic Defence.

Watch out for the Silver Mirror as it reflects a Strength 6 hit on the Mage that casts a spell at that unit.

Avoid casting spells at units with Damsels as they have Magic Resistance (unless you have enough dice to overcome this). Use RBTs single bolts on these units.

Lore of Heavens is actually pretty good for a shooty HE army and it also has a spell that ignores Armour saves.

Lore of Beasts is good for Beast Cowers & the Magic Bolt thrower

Lore of Metal is also good vs. 2+ Armour saves

You probably don't need High Magic vs. Bretonnians unless they have the Fey Enchantress.

Watch out for the green knight a pesky Ethereal Special Character.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:04 pm 
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Multi shot is better than single bolt, as the 5+ ward save could stop your bolt at the first knight.

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