Ulthuan

Dual charge with chariot and big DP unit.

You position the chariot as much possible in base contact with the Hydra leaving the DP to position to take out the Handlers.

If he get past Monster reaction and targets the chariot he gets 4cr. While you got 2kills+Outnumber+banner+rank from DP thats 5 not counting wounds on the hydra if you manage any. So a break on a 5 at least .

The only downside is if he gets unbreakable on monster reaction

except if you fail the leadership test on either unit the one that succeeds will bounce of the hydra when it goes in solo.

If anyone takes a 10man DP unit and doesn`t put Lion of Balance standard on them then he deserves to bounce off!

That and a Lion Chariot.

But that 3-4 result on the monster reaction worries me.

JTFCUP wrote:
You position the chariot as much possible in base contact with the Hydra leaving the DP to position to take out the Handlers.

Dont think you can target the handlers, special rule with the hydra.

U can attack handler if u only have base contact with them. If u have base contact also to hydra u have to attack hydra.

Somone should borrow you their dark elve armybook... so u can read tho, thats a tip for many ppl her posting on this topic.. too many assumptions and "have heard this or that"

you would understand their strenght and weakness and especially some of their rules way faster! or just use search function heh

Psykrunner: please endeavour to post in real english, we dislike text-speak here.

If you're going to charge the Hydra and beat them on CR then you shouldn't kill the handlers are it forces a monster reaction test. If the Hydra fails the test and rolls a 3 - 4 you'll get bogged down...

Just smash into the hydra with 5 DP with Battle Banner and you should win combat and run it down....

Chances are he'll kill the bsb.

you just have to put him in the far left or right of the dragon princes unit, so hes unreachable for hydra or handlers..

I've had success with a Star Dragon against Dark Elves, but have not played the Archmage against them much. Star Dragon + 3 RBTs has always been enough shooting to kill them over 6 turns. I think that I've put the Star Dragon in combat only once or twice against dark elves, and only repeater crossbows or RBTs. Charging the dragon into the hydra, the black gaurd or corsairs w/ assassin, or the cauldron is just too risky for the prince on top. The most effective weapon you have is dragon breath. Black Guard + Dragon Breath = a lot of dead darkies.

I'll need more games before I can comment on getting around the ring of hotek. Theoryhammer against the Ring was part of the reason that I've stayed away from magic heavy armies.

I have played only a few games against dark elves - never won a single game though :-/
I also find them extremly hard to fight

One thing that can always upset my opponent is when I launch a cheap unit of reavers (with champ, single column) into one of his support units. They will ofcause break and the DE's have to follow. This can actually be quite an advantage. The ill behaved DE unit can serve to block line of sight for mages and shooting and might get into a position to be flank charged.

(note that the unit has to have a champ. - only he will be (in base contact) killed while the rest of the unit lives and can flee)

The guy I play likes to control his units and move them very strategic - so this is often a great frustration for him. Also the fact that I reroll all physc. tests saves me a lot of pain

fielding a lot of shooters also work quite nice I think.

In the end - when we get to the real close combat in turn 3-4 his assasins and hydra are a real pain and have cost me victory in all my battles with DE. I always sit back with the feeling "hmm I should have won - luck was balanced and I played a good game ????!?!?"=()("/)("&%&%¤%¤#!#¤#!%¤&!" *DAMN*

Thats my experience..

Regards

I don't really see how that's all that effective a tactic? Sure you hit them, lose combat, run away, the Dark Elves follow... but then it's their next turn and they can just move the unit that pursued. While you've lost a 100 point unit...

=()("/)("&%&%¤%¤#!#¤#!%¤&!" *DAMN* about sums it up, but I don't do too bad against the Dark Elves any more. It's when I decide things like, "Oh looks a Black Guard unit, I think I'll flank them with my elite infantry, Lord and BSB" which is invariably followed by me removing my own unit and characters from the table...

Well - you make a good point

My example was a bad one I admit but with some imagination you might be able to see how my tactic could work very well.
The goal is to stir up his battle line. You can make one of his units move i an unwanted direction. In a particullar battle it might not serve a purpose (so you don't do it) but you have the option and he is forced to follow....
One important note that might not be clear - you wont loose the unit you will loose a champion. He will die and the unit is actually out of combat - no more casualties. The combat is resolved and the reavers flee.. The DE unit must follow (your charge decides the direction)

All i'm saying is that hate has a down side - we should be aware of it and use it to our advantage.. We don't have many advantages over DE - this is (though it seems insignificant) one of them and can be of use..

Stormie wrote:I don't really see how that's all that effective a tactic? Sure you hit them, lose combat, run away, the Dark Elves follow... but then it's their next turn and they can just move the unit that pursued. While you've lost a 100 point unit...

=()("/)("&%&%¤%¤#!#¤#!%¤&!" *DAMN* about sums it up, but I don't do too bad against the Dark Elves any more. It's when I decide things like, "Oh looks a Black Guard unit, I think I'll flank them with my elite infantry, Lord and BSB" which is invariably followed by me removing my own unit and characters from the table...

the reason is because to pull a particular unit out of position and possible take advantage of a flank charge. but it's a hard move to pull.

pk-ng wrote:the reason is because to pull a particular unit out of position and possible take advantage of a flank charge. but it's a hard move to pull.

You won't get a flank charge with that move because the next turn is the Dark Elves'. What you get is making the target unit (aka Black Guard) waste a turn turning around. Which since you probably cannot kill them, is well worthwhile.

I agree that it is worthwhile if you are getting the battle line significantly broken. My elves are most successful when they are tampering with the opponents strategy i.e. screwing up movement plans in this example, draining VC magic phase, etc. Creating those holes and then striking at the right moment against the right target seems the best course of action.

You better have in mind that Dark elves are still elves having the same weaknesses with you.
Yeah i am talking about the almost none armour saves.
The only hard hitting unit that you need to worry about is hydra.She is almost undying creature with the 4+ regeneration.
Better have her countered by a unit of Phoenix guards and won with static combat resolution.
As for all the others shoot them to death.
The only thing that HE are better on is the range of our core missile units and that means archers with a range of 30'' instead of DE crossbowmen with range of 24''.If you deploy our archers not at 12'' but at lets say 10 or 9 you have a great advantage for the first round of shooting.
Give in mind that hitting hydra with shooting is a waste of time if you have other targets that can be shot.
So use your shooting on our low armor opponents (try to kill first fast cavalry, and then crossbowmen).
After that any infantry or cavalry that is close to you and your last choice is hydra.
Our magic users are better than them.
Use high magic to counter them and boost your units defense.
The current DE strategy is simple, they are using a lot of supporting units x-bows and dark riders to weaken enemies ranks while having their hard hitting cc units charging at them to finish the job.
An advantage of their short range shooting and low armor is your key to win.

ok, me n my friends play quite regularyly. And as a high elf player i wn most of the time, however one of my mates is DE and yes i feel your pain.

Heres the good news. On a normal 48 inch table, 10 inch depolyment rar ra ra. Anyways, all you have to do is get a unit of long bow archer line em up against their repeated cross bow and fuck em up. Firstly they only shoot 24 whilst our archers do 36, so by the time their men are in range (24) Their light armour would have faulterd and they would either be all dead or wont hav enough to do damage.
Thats one of their core units coverd.
thenlets assume they have the equivilant of lothern sea gaurds (not spear man the other one, i forgot the name) anyway, no DE player give them a 8 inch cross bow, no they giv em two swrods so they have 3 attacks. With a re roll, that fuckin deadly, however, if you get lotherns you shoot them until they get to you, that lets say 3 of their men dead. (lothern suck at shootint) anyway, they charge you and you stand and shoot them, killing 1-2 men then you get attck first 3 rank attack, killing 3-4 ment. that means all your shooting and shit killed about seven (inclu close combat) then you out rank out number over kill and they cant attck back because they lost front row. You smash them in combat rez, hopfully they break, i have had 100% sucess with that.
Anywayz, then you get your special, its quite simple, you cheat, get 2 tironics and a lion, that more hard hitting (if they are togeher) then anything anyone could throw at you, i mean that 3 d6 on a 4 n up you kill, then you haave 4 w5 s5 then 4w3s3 then 4 w4s3 thats sic!!! the dark elves oown nothing to comabt that. Thenhopefully they get a hydra, cuz then you throw at them some dragon prince, only 5 needed they never loose.

then for leaders, get korhil (in one game he took out Archon a deamon prince and a prince of slaneesh, no shitt hes da best, for his points)
Teclis, stick him with korhil for protection.
lvl 2 mage (this is for power dice that teclis can work with, also include the magic banner that give you an extra d3 power dice.)
noble, to go in the dragon princes.

any way, prt two, i just finished covering lords n heros (soz for all the spelling errors in the last post).

Now for tactiics. You cover a flank with all three chariots, whilst you line the dragon prince up with da hydra.
then inh the middle you have a unit of archers, lothens and thats it.
in the unit of lothen you put korhil n tecklis, in the unit of archers u put the other mage and in the unit of princes you put the noble.
then set an eagle up n two rbts then hav 6 sword masters as a pivotl unit and thats it. thats you army lined up.

they should b as shown the dots represents the units.

... . ....
. .
the units on the left r the chariots prince, the four dots with no spaces on the right are the rest of the army. then the two dots at bac r the RBTs.
Then you dont move foward with anything, let them come to you, march block them with the eagle, and hopefully in attempt to get to you faster the DE will have moved some of his units in an isolated spot, an akward spot or simply fucked up his battle lines, then you simply enjoy the show when they reach you, charge up the chariots at their biggest block, their infantry (after some effective fire) will b weakend so when they hit you you will attack first and hopfully kill whatever you need.
thats it done.

you will win if you do this. of course im happy for feed back my name is fabiankj and knock youself out with tryin to find flaws. so their you go fellow elven player DE's will have no hope now. yay.

Hydra smashes DP.
Assassin in Corsairs smashes Sea Guard.
Shades (possibly with Assassin) smash things in your backyard if you're not carefully.
ASF BG with Assassin smash everything you have.
Crossbowmen and Dark Riders munch elite infantry with their RXB.
Ring of Hotek fries any courageous spellcasters.
And if your unlucky they have an unkillable Dreadlord on top of that to add to the fun.

I just figured I'd add my own hate in with the OP about Helbrone, I hate that hag bitch, last week I played my WoC against some DE and that bitch riding her manticore, smashed through 3 units by herself (2 units of chaos knights, and a 12 man unit of chaos warriors), she killed my BSB in a duel, but worst of all, she killed Archaon himself in a duel before he got to swing back (I second the OP declaration that she's the hardest hitting cc character in the game, my first encounter ever with her, she ate Grimgor before he got to swing too, so there's 2 of the nastiest fighters in the game dead before they could even swing, who'll be next I wonder).

orka wrote:ASF BG with Assassin smash everything you have.

Which is why you never engage it.

ASF BG with Assassin smash everything you have.

Luckily theyre T3 elves in heavy armour. Nice targetpractice.

I just figured I'd add my own hate in with the OP about Helbrone,

Ask your 'friend' to field Hellebron against any army that can actually shoot (so not WoC or VC) and you'll find out how "not OP" the worlds biggest glasscannon is, especially if she rides a Manticore.

she killed Archaon himself in a duel before he got to swing back (I second the OP declaration that she's the hardest hitting cc character in the game, my first encounter ever with her, she ate Grimgor before he got to swing too, so there's 2 of the nastiest fighters in the game dead before they could even swing, who'll be next I wonder)

This all seems very unlikely. Either you lie or Hellebron was very lucky, and Archaon was extremely unlucky, seeing as Hellebron averages doing* 0,98~1 wound / turn to Archaon, while he averages doing** 2 wounds to her, ***5 wounds to her if he unleashed U'zhul.

*8 attacks at average, 4,44 hits, 2,96 wounds, 0,98 wounds after saves ~ 1 wound.
**4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 2,22 wounds ~ 2 wounds.
*** 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds.

Minsc wrote:This all seems very unlikely. Either you lie or Hellebron was very lucky, and Archaon was extremely unlucky, seeing as Hellebron averages doing* 0,98~1 wound / turn to Archaon, while he averages doing** 2 wounds to her, ***5 wounds to her if he unleashed U'zhul.

*8 attacks at average, 4,44 hits, 2,96 wounds, 0,98 wounds after saves ~ 1 wound.
**4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 2,22 wounds ~ 2 wounds.
*** 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 wounds.

I wish I could say it was a lie, I've fought her twice now, once with OnG, and once with WoC, she broke through my unit of knights on my left flank (by killing my bsb in a challenge), managed to flank charge a unit of 12 chaos warriors, and she then overran into the flank of Archaon's unit of knights (The flank Archaon was standing on), I issue my challenge because I have to (I figured Archaon should be able to take her), between her attacks, she a 3 for her d3 extra attacks, She caused 7 wounds, I passed 4 ward saves, failed 3, her Manticore hit 3 times, caused 1 killing blow, and 1 wound, I pass my armour save on the wound, fail my ward save on the killing blow, Archaon dies, unit breaks, Helebron wins him the game. Not the he needed Helebron, this is a player who frequently runs double hydra, ASFKB BG, big units of Shades, and every other nasty dirty trick he can get his hands onto, and when it isn't Helebone, it's the unkillable dreadlord. His list consists of as many internet cheese tourny combos he can fit into a legal list and nothing else, completely min maxed to be as painful as possible. The other time I fought Helebrone was against someone else just after the DE book came out, she was with a cauldron, I had no idea what to expect in that game, but I figured in cc Grimgor should be able to handle almost anyone, she was the exception apparently.
Luck may have something to do with it, the first one I claim ignorance (I honestly had no idea they had anyone that nasty previous to this), the second time however, was totally luck, his dice were hot, mine were not, but I still had to vent about her a bit.

She caused 7 wounds, I passed 4 ward saves, failed 3, her Manticore hit 3 times, caused 1 killing blow, and 1 wound, I pass my armour save on the wound, fail my ward save on the killing blow, Archaon dies,

While a lucky KB from the Manticores part is understandable, you don't forgot that Hellebron hits on 5+ with rerolls and wounds on 3+ due to Archaons specialrule. For her to hit and wound 7 out of her 9 attacks is...well...extraodinary...bordering to loaded dices.

Although I feel your pain, that guy sounds like a real douche. (Using Hellebron on a Manticore vs WoC is like the worst and most obvious kind of tailoring one can make.)

Minsc wrote:

She caused 7 wounds, I passed 4 ward saves, failed 3, her Manticore hit 3 times, caused 1 killing blow, and 1 wound, I pass my armour save on the wound, fail my ward save on the killing blow, Archaon dies,

While a lucky KB from the Manticores part is understandable, you don't forgot that Hellebron hits on 5+ with rerolls and wounds on 3+ due to Archaons specialrule. For her to hit and wound 7 out of her 9 attacks is...well...extraodinary...bordering to loaded dices.

Although I feel your pain, that guy sounds like a real douche. (Using Hellebron on a Manticore vs WoC is like the worst and most obvious kind of tailoring one can make.)

The only reason, come to think of it, that I even took Archaon was because I had a feeling he was going to pull out either Hellebron or his unkillable dreadlord, and one way or another, I figured Archaon was probably the most powerful character I could field as a Chaos player to deal with either of those characters. As for the dice, I would have said they were loaded, but in turn 1 Archaon cast flickering fire on his Cold One Knights, DE player let it go off because he didn't have very many dice (he only had one lvl 2 and the Ring of Hotek for magic defense), and I still had a bunch of dice, rolled 6 S7 hits, and the DE player failed all his armour saves losing the unit (who's champion I later discovered had been carrying the Ring of Hotek).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned which we can exploit to our advantage is the Dark elves Hatred.

If the DE Unit wins Combat it has to pursue with the Hatred rule.

This means we can use sacrificial units to lure the dark elves into bad positions where we might get flank charges etc...

Well our army wide rule re-rolling Psych Tests will also help vs DE's.

However I agree with the above comments that DE's are a bad match up for us.