Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

Discuss your tactics for the 7th Ed army book here, together with tactics for other races.

Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters

Message
Author
pk-ng
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:39 pm
Location: Cathy

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#61 Post by pk-ng »

Why don't you discuss with your enemy before the game starts
a) can it shoot in combat (yes or no)
b) is it classified as a chariot or war machine
c) can it shoot into fleeing units (yes or no)
d) can it shoot whilst it flees (yes or no)

If you can't agree just D6 it.
Until the FAQ comes it the rules are unclear and pretty much open to interpretation and PoV.

and as geo has pointed out correctly asuitandty "out of control" rules doesn't help.

Most of my skaven oppoents play.

a) no
b) chariot
c) yes
d) no

just a thought...
ETC WHFB Team Singapore
2014 - Chaos Dwarfs & Most Favoured Enemy
2015 - High Elves & Top HE

T9A
Highborn Elves - Army Book Committee
Balancing Board
Highborn Elves - ex-Army Support
Keith
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:08 pm

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#62 Post by Keith »

I don't understand the question about shooting fleeing units.... when is there ever a restriction on that?
Defender of Ulthuan
kingwrynn
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:46 am

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#63 Post by kingwrynn »

I think PK misunderstood the question. The question isnt "can it fire into fleeing units?", what people wanted to know is either "does it fire while it is fleeing?" or "can the doomwheel fire on the turn it rallies?"
chris_havoc
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:33 pm
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#64 Post by chris_havoc »

OK! Um... to go back to the issue of fleeing from contact with an abomination/doomwheel. If they charge it means that it has to go from centre-to-centre from my understanding which means while the abomination still moves it's full 3d6 inches if it has charged it still must charge down the line of the unit it charged otherwise how does the unit fleeing flee? If you follow the fleeing rules and flee from the centre of the random move creature you may actually end up fleeing almost 90 degrees from where the charge started which doesn't make sense. I agree with wildling if the rules concerning it's move omit charging then you should follow the BRB rules for charging. On top of this the movement distance is random not the direction (if it is then the point is void). So firstly a legal charge must be declared (line of sight, charge arc) and the reaction stated, then compulsory movement happens. Also I would say that the doomwheel can shoot whilst fleeing because its rules do say it shoots every turn. For shooting into combat I think this is also the case, however, the target is the closest unit. I'm not sure of the Skaven rules for shooting into combat but if the closest target is a Skaven unit in combat then the enemy unit should be counted as the 'friendly unit' in the shooting into combat rules for determining unintentional shooting into combat if that makes sense?
This war will tear apart the sky,
Letting through the light and we will survive!
And we'll sing!
Marching onward, we're singing for our freedom!
Brian Mage
Posts: 537
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:28 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#65 Post by Brian Mage »

Just a thought, (however i don't have the BRB to hand to check this) #-o

But are shooty shots on chariots worked out against the toughness of the chariot and not the crew etc???

If so, wouldn't charging Lion chariots into PCB's and/or the furnace dilute the effectivness of Plague and even the odds out a little? :?:

Fear causing enemy, would prob do more damage then recieved, combat won!?!?!? :?
[color=#FF0000][url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32214]The Order of the Mage Knights[/url][/color]
[url=http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=31665]My Painting Blog - High Elf Storm Troopers & Tree Hugging Hippies[/url]

It's the Schrodinger's Cat of rules. Until the FAQ, the interpretation can be inferred as both true and false correctly
User avatar
Baerion
Posts: 552
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:57 pm
Location: Minneosta, USA

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#66 Post by Baerion »

Is there anything else in the skaven army besides the Hellpit and the Doomwheel?

What about Rat Ogres, Rat Packs, Assassins, Gutter Runners, does anyone have any advice on how to deal with them? Any tactics they usually employ with these units that need to be avoided? Any nasty assassin combos to watch out for?
Midnight Legion Painting Blog: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30693
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#67 Post by Fwum »

The truth is that we can pretty much handle everything else in their army except those under discussion. Their assassins is cool but not very good, compared to the other hero choices (why they didn't make it not counting as a hero like in the DE book is beyond me). They have no really killy combos to talk about, but it is still an assassin, so if your opponent only deploys three characters you should be a little wary, but glad that he didn't max out on plague priests or engineers. Gutter Runners is like any other infiltrator, and is nothing special. It is possible to give them poisoned slings which is quite dangerous, but it costs a lot.

Rat packs are kind of interesting, as they count as core and a minimum size unit is cheap as dirt. Often the opponent might bring three or four of these just to get a lot of drops, and they are a real pain with their speed. Played a game yesterday where when I was finished deploying my opponent had only placed four regiments of slaves and four rat packs, about 1/10 of his army cost! One way to punish this is to completely destroy one rat pack over US 5 in either the magic or shooting phase (shouldn't be to hard), thus forcing a panic test 6'' around it, which in the beginning might be affecting a lot of units.
I don't have any experience with rat ogres, but with T4, 3 wound and frenzy they should be quite easy to shoot and redirect.

Another thing to remember is that all warpstone weapons is magical. My Archmage with Folariath's Robe learnt it the hard way when he was charged turn 2 by some Censor bearers... Still scored a massacre 8)
Last edited by Fwum on Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#68 Post by geoguswrek »

i've seen rat packs used to take the fire from the doomwheel when it was closer to my opponents stuff than to mine.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Wildling04
Posts: 465
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:43 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#69 Post by Wildling04 »

The reason the assassin has to be a hero in skaven army and not in a DE army is simply point cost of the rest of the troops. A single assassin could turn any skaven unit into a much more formidable fighting unit. You could throw a couple in your army, making it even better at CC and still having plenty left over for a lot of other stuff. Dark elf troops are so much more expensive that taking a couple of assassins is going to really limit your numbers.
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#70 Post by Fwum »

True. The problem is probably that the other choices are so superior, and it's a pity it doesn't get used more. I will always think of skaven as the true assassin army. Sneaky ninja ratmen with smoke bombs and mines just feels so right.
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#71 Post by geoguswrek »

Fwum: you are certainly right there, skaven should be the sneaky ninja army. Shame you can't really do a true eshin list.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Flash Felix
Posts: 35
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:45 am

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#72 Post by Flash Felix »

What Lores would you all suggest against Skaven? I'm thinking of playing a friend's Skaven, using magic heavy High Elves, and was wondering about this. He also plays magic heavy, with a Grey Seer, Plague Priest (on Furnace of course) and Warlock Engineer.

Some have suggested Lore of Death, for getting Doom and Darkness. I was thinking High Magic as well, using Drain Magic at the end of the phase to help limit his own (heavy) magic phase. Flames of the Phoenix on a Skaven unit would be lethal too, provided you got it off. The only other contender I could think of was Shadow, to allow movement, but then Pit of Shades is of limited use given the high initiative that Skaven have. If they have an abomination, then Fire would be handy too I guess.

So, any suggestions?
geoguswrek
Posts: 1974
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:44 pm

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#73 Post by geoguswrek »

Fire if there is an abomination (use fiery blast on the A-bomb, wall of fire on a big unit), otherwise death or high.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Fwum
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:04 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#74 Post by Fwum »

geoguswrek wrote:Fire if there is an abomination (use fiery blast on the A-bomb, wall of fire on a big unit), otherwise death or high.
QFT. I wouldn't recommend lore of Shadow, as they only spell you really want there is unseen lurker, and if you get it you are still stuck with a lot of bad spells.. All the three mentioned before have uses for almost all of their spells.
Sashimoto
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:54 am
Location: Russia, Yekaterinburg
Contact:

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#75 Post by Sashimoto »

Didn't try death against skaven, but, as geoguswrek already said, high and and fire are very effective against them.
TK_
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:02 pm

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#76 Post by TK_ »

Hey everyone - I could really use some help...

I've recently dusted off my old HE models and bought the new AB, because a friend of mine wanted to get started with WH. Obviously, he started with Skaven.

Now I've been playing against him for a couple of months now, and I have yet to win a battle... Maybe you can tell me why.

We've been playing small battles of 1500 points. He typically fields something like this:

A Plague Priest with PC in a unit of 20 Plague Monks with Full Command, Shroud of Dripping Death
30 Clanrats with handweapon and shield (FC)
30 Clanrats with spears (FC)
20 Stormvermin (FC), Stormbanner
20 Slaves
1 Doomwheel
10 Giants Rats + 2 packmasters
3 Warplock Jezzails
10 Nightrunners with Slings
10 Gutter Runners

I usually have a unit of Spears/LSG (20-25), a unit of WL, (12-18), a unit of SM (12-18) and I've been experimenting with the Phoenix Guard... but although they can take a ***load of attacks and still remain standing, they don't quite pack the punch I need to get through these big blocks of rats. Lately, I've been using two lvl 2's as Hero choices, to get Shield of Saphery in - the less he can kill, the higher the penalty on his break tests..
For support, I've tried everything from a lot of archers and RBT's, to Silver Helms or Reavers... it just won't work.

I have to add that his dicerolls are above average, and mine are definately below - but that shouldn't lose me every single battle,right? :lol:

To me it seems that he has a counter for everything I can throw at him:
- With archers, I can't get enough kills in to force a Panic test before he reaches me - and they're useless in CC.
- LSG are nice, but are expensive, and I'm already facing A LOT of rats.
- If I field RBT's, he takes them out with his Gutter Runners in turn 2.
- If I field any kind of cavalry, it's Jezzail food.
- If I even get far enough to get through a unit of Clanrats, there's another (elite) unit standing behind it (so to speak), waiting for me :D

Is there something I'm missing? A great big gaping hole in his defences that I've overlooked? :P

Please let me know!
Kethnae
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:49 pm

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#77 Post by Kethnae »

TK_ wrote:I have to add that his dicerolls are above average, and mine are definately below - but that shouldn't lose me every single battle,right? :lol:
You might be surprised. But generally no.
TK_ wrote:- With archers, I can't get enough kills in to force a Panic test before he reaches me - and they're useless in CC.
- LSG are nice, but are expensive, and I'm already facing A LOT of rats.
- If I field RBT's, he takes them out with his Gutter Runners in turn 2.
- If I field any kind of cavalry, it's Jezzail food.
- If I even get far enough to get through a unit of Clanrats, there's another (elite) unit standing behind it (so to speak), waiting for me :D
As to the panic tests, that's Skaven. You need some seriously concentrated fire to get 25% of a 30 model unit, Burning Head from the Lore of Fire might seem useful, but Strength in Numbers means he's got a Leadership statistic that's the equal of an elf as long as he has full ranks.
LSG... too true, lots and lots of rats out there.
Gutter Runners are built to be rough on machine crew, but if you drop some Shadow Warriors or an eagle into your back field you might be able to beat them at their own game. On another note, Gutter Runners tend to be very prone to panic. Even a 10 rat unit only needs 3 kills to panic, and on Ld 7, their odds are less than stellar. With a quick Curse of Arrow Attraction a single volley from the Bolt Thrower would easily force a panic on them.
If its Dragon Princes consider the Banner of Ellyrion, try and keep them mostly concealed in a forest until the moment you want to charge. Silver Helms and Reavers can do similar things if they hide behind terrain for safety.
Skaven have elite units?!? :) Well, maybe the PCBs could be called elite. If it is PCBs, consider using an Eagle to bait them around. If they spend the game trying to catch the birdie they'll never get to hammer through something of greater value.

A few personal observations from both sides of the Skaven v. High Elves table:
Swordmasters. I've cracked fully ranked units of Dwarf Longbeards using about 7-12 Swordmasters fielded 7 wide. Skaven (ANY Skaven) have lower toughness and/or worse armor saves than Longbeards. A unit of Swordmasters should reduce a clanrat unit to ground meat in a matter of seconds.
Against the unit of Plague Monks, consider fielding the Standard of Balance. From personal experience, a Plague Monk unit needs the extra attacks from Frenzy and usually strike-first from the charge to succeed. Without the first-strike from the charge and with the Standard stealing their Frenzy it'll be quite difficult for them to get more than a wound or two in. It's the Priest and the Shroud that are the problems. I don't yet know how a High Elf would handle those. Were my Skaven army fighting a High Elf army, those are two things I would definitely include for some wholesale slaughter. With a Talisman of Loec on either a Bladelord or a Noble you might well manage to kill the Priest. Of course, with a Plague Censer on him the Priest might gas you to death before that can happen.
Dreadlord Blooay
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:00 pm

Re: Enemy of the Month: January 2010: Skaven

#78 Post by Dreadlord Blooay »

The most frightening for high elfs in a skaven army is abomination (but that counts for pretty much every army) and the plague furnace and its small disciples, pcb's. Clanrats, stormvermin, slaves, giant rats, everything else we can beat with our far surprior elite troops. (if we go into a fair fight that is.) Steamrolling clanrat units that are not unbreakable is terrible easy, and that is why skaven needs that anti armour jezzails, else it could quickly get ugly. My main army is skaven, and while panic tests is nice through shooting on them, a lot of my army couldn't care less. Stormbanner, numbers, high T and saves, expendable units, shooting defiantly is for pcb's and other small units, instead of wasting them on the big units that you could beat otherwise. For the plague furnace, I usually use its frenzy to gently guide it away from my He army, since, front, your dead, flank, your fine until you have killed enough to get into the furnace then your screwed again. Abomination, I think it is about feeding it crap, if we got any... usually don't. Seriously, hit it in the flank or the rear, it will beat you. There is not much we can do. Besides being lucky or going all out fire magic against it.
Post Reply