Just keep on whinning over the skaven!

[Dreadlord Blooay]

So yes, this topic you can whine all you want over the new skaven list. I am skaven player myself, so before you start to WHINE so much, maybe you want to take a look at the new army list from the skaven eyes? You fear something you should simply NOT fear.

So, I will give this topic some blocks. They won't be large, but sufficient enough to give the skaven view onto it.

Block 1- Unbreakable blocks! Ahhh, whine time! Ahhh!

YES WE HAVE UNBREAKABLE BLOCKS. But you will probably only find two of those unbreakable blocks in our army, and if there are more, the army will be small and thus, YOU WIN. Now you might think, yeah yeah, how the hell do I deal with unbreakable stuff? I can't break them! It is impossible!

Answer time: No, your correct, you cannot break a clanrat/stormvermin unit with a bell or a plague monk unit with a furnace. However, when we see the rule "unbreakable" high elven players starts to think, oh god their unbeatable!

Your wrong, so so so wrong there. Cause, even when their coupled up with the unbreakable rule, and a bell/furnace, THEIR STILL SKAVEN. And skaven have no elite, at all. Even your spearmen will outmatch them in any match. Look at the bell unit. It is easy a unit there is good for around, 600 points. How do I, as a high elf player defeat this opponent, at a lower cost? Answer: SM. Or properly called, Sword master. You will probably say, hey why not shoot it, but you will probably see him with the stormbanner. But this also gives your SM protection from their shooting. Back to the SM... As long as the bell does not charge you, (dangerous impact hits) even 7 SM will outclass the bell unit. Yes, you might lose the SM to the rat ogre, but having another SM unit to wait or just flank charge, will give you the even better advantage. The rat ogre cannot attack you now, the skaven does not have their precious ranks, the bell's unit will slowly get chopped down, piece by piece, by the SM's. The only think you have to look out for, is getting flanked or rear charged yourself.

Short answer: You outclass the skaven bell unit. A SM unit in the flank will chop the bell's unit down slowly.

The furnace unbreakable block: You might not believe it, but this is an EASY unbreakable block. How on earth can an unbreakable block become easy? They have plague monks with tons of attacks, they have a dangerous furnace which can tuck out, very dangerous gas hits, how on earth can this be easy!?

Answer time: Frenzy. Yes, the very thing which adds the danger to plague monks, is their greatest weakness. You will probably find yourself with a slave block, making sure this frenzied unbreakable block won't go anywhere. But, slaves is easy to beat, and you should just flee if the furnace charges you. Now, the hard thing is to get rid of the slave block safely, once that done, the easy part begins. Every high elf army should have an eagle. Use this eagle. The plague monks will easily become a 500 points block. Make them follow the eagle. Avoid this unit. Don't try and beat it, it is simply too dangerous. If you can't lure it out, LEARN IT.

The A bomb, better known as, Hell pit Abomination: Uhhh... Now this isn't an unbreakable block. But in the skaven point of view, it is much more deadly. Why? It hits hard. It got impact, it got attacks, IT CAN REVIVE, it can regenerate, it is awesome. And it moves in the compus movement face, so can be slow, but also very fast, and very mobile. I don't think this one have gotten enough attention on here!

Answer: The high elf army doesn't have a really good answer to this monster. Our dragon princes probably will suffer from lance rubber syndrome and thus, fail after first round. Our SM will probably die to its superior attack power. Our shooting will be thwarted by stormbanner. The only REAL option is to either, flame with your dragon if you have it, or magic it if you have archmage. But, the high elves, simply just doesn't have a REALLY good option against this. Avoid or wear down, our only options.

So, this might not be the most strategic or large post, but its what I thought over reading over all the whine people have said around the new skaven book. Now I know all new books need a whine round, and I ain't tugging down on you people doing it, hell if it weren't because I were a skaven player myself I WOULD WHINE. But, let us start thinking over it shall we? Feel free to whine on this post, or ask questions.

[langbaobao]

So your point is that out of the three units you've mentioned two are to be avoided because there's no combat answer to them in the HE arsenal? I see a pattern emerging in the last few ABs as far as HE answers to them. More and more things to be avoided in combat...

[Dreadlord Blooay]

So your point is that out of the three units you've mentioned two are to be avoided because there's no combat answer to them in the HE arsenal? I see a pattern emerging in the last few ABs as far as HE answers to them. More and more things to be avoided in combat...

Yes, but high elf magic can be devastating, maybe you can clear out of that just through sheer power. (Though skaven usually have very powerful magic with them as well.) However, if you flank a furnace unit? What do you know, you can plow through it as well. Perhaps even with spearmen. There just aren't a whole fucking lot there can deal with the abomination though. Not much...

[Stormie]

You mean all we have to do is flank those big blocks? Isn't that what everyone tries to do anyway?

[Musashi]

Avoidance is easier if you have plenty of space on the table, and if you're allowed to booby-trap it during terrain setup.

[Hoof&Mouth]

I think that the scariest units are the PCB's and the furnace. The bell unit you can outfight with....anything. The A-Bomb has to be dealt with with magic ( as I see it ). This thing really is rediculous.

[SpellArcher]

Skaven magic is destructive but their phase lacks many tools. Spell selection, range(plague lore), bound items, miscast protection. Ours is better IMHO.

Can the Abom not be shot despite the banner? It's a large target and yes it regens but no AS I believe? I guess there are other things like the Furnace competing for RBT attention.

Speaking of which, there was an amusing recent bit from the UK Masters where VC's engaged the Furnace as a learning exercise. The conclusion..."don't!"

[dabber]

However, if you flank a furnace unit? What do you know, you can plow through it as well. Perhaps even with spearmen. There just aren't a whole fucking lot there can deal with the abomination though. Not much...

You'll plow through it ... until you get in contact with the furnace itself. Then you die. I've seen Dwarfs and Saurus (both T4) steadily killed off just from being in base contact with a furnace.

[Stormie]

Speaking of which, there was an amusing recent bit from the UK Masters where VC's engaged the Furnace as a learning exercise. The conclusion..."don't!"

Not so much a learning exercise as an exercise in "I'm gonna spam VHD until I get the charge... whoops miscast!" fail, from what I heard

I've only engaged the Furnace once, with a unit of around ~50 Zombies. He also charged with the A-bomb, and wiped them all out with maybe 10 to spare, then the Furnace over-ran into my big Grave Guard unit that was already fighting some rats (it was a bit of an iffy overrun that aligned through his own unit). The Grave Guard had a Vampire hero and a Wight King with a D3 wound great weapon and they still annihilated all my unit within two combat phases. Although my opponent did botch the rules by swinging the Censer in my turn which killed the Wight King and helped finish off the unit in time for them to turn and move on, might have had a chance at taking down the Furnace with something with S6D3 wounds fighting it. But next time I think I'll just avoid

[WarpPhoenix]

I notice a running trend in your "answers" and they seem to be that we can either avoid the problem or throw swordmasters at it, what if I dont have swordmasters? Can I whine now?

When we look at the main problems as a whole we can see tha main problems are not bell and furnace units, they're just a point sink unit and will iether take a lot to be taken out or they wont earn their points back, its a bad investment as a whoel for a skaven player to make unless your opponent decides to engage your bad stock investment.

The main problems are one model unit destroyers, a few key magical items, the spells you have and the way to book is writen.

Abominations are a problem because they can and DO massacre units very easily. You said to avoid it but its not exactly a slow moving beast, it isnt dictated by line of sight and its stubborn on leadership 8 (and if I was a skaven player id realyl try to get a BSB In there to make that rerollable). Another stubborn terror causer is the steggadon, its only leadership 6 but you 3 dice it so its basically leadership 8-9. Thats fine for the points cost except when we wander over to abomination territory we find it can really handle itself in combat, so you've got the staying power, the break protection AND you're damn hard to kill, harder to kill than a giant, it can also be given magical attacks and MR (1) for damn cheap too! Everyone who plays the game has the right to complain about it but I'm not saying to get rid of it, its not part of the game and it CAN be taken out and it does have weakness's just like every other model in the game, I just wouldnt take it in friendly games if I were you, not if you wanted to make friends anyway.

Doomwheels! Oh boy I love this guy, one of his misfire results means he gets better, isnt it wonderful? The main problem with this guy is that he's about as tough as a greater daemon (jsut with no 5+ ward save) and he's a mobile weapon platform, you gain the the old warp lgihtning cannon in a mobile form that shoots 3 times except it wont penetrate a unit like a cannon, but the main thing about warplightning is that it does D6 wounds, meaning just park yourself next to a wood and watch all the local mages in such woods (a tried and true Elf magic user tactic) they're going to be tasty tasty meat for the next skaven all Elf BBQ chilli cookout. But the foremost problem iwth the doomwheel is its badly writen rules, they're too inaccurately written and need revising, until then im only concerned about its shooting phase (and that it does it in combat).

Stormbanner. If its true that its NOT one use only then its way underpriced for affecting the entire board and needs to be banned in every major tournament. However if it is one use only then its just a little cheap for what it does and should be included in every power skaven army list, much like a hydra.

The plague lore, I dont know what they were thinking on making an 8+ cast spell that lowers a units toughness FOR GOOD by one that can go off multiple times but its not a good way to take advantage of all the toughness tests you make the opponent make, the low strength no armour save spells you have really hurt Elves hard, we have the right to complain about it, but that doesnt mean you should lose it, it just means that we've been given another rock to our scissors and we have to fight even harder now, accept it.

But none of these things compare to my biggest and most admired unit in the skaven book. The Plague censor bearers. These guys can and WILL kill more than swordmasters, they will break anything thats not stubborn in the first round of combat quite easily unless they get decimated because they didnt charge or because the opponent strikes first, but for 16 points they are well worth every drop of their points, but I wont complain about them, i am mearly praising them, i believe that they should be a backbone of every skaven list.

[Wildling04]

When we look at the main problems as a whole we can see tha main problems are not bell and furnace units, they're just a point sink unit and will iether take a lot to be taken out or they wont earn their points back, its a bad investment as a whoel for a skaven player to make unless your opponent decides to engage your bad stock investment.

I don't know that they are a bad investment. They are good point denial if you avoid them. The seer and the bell itself will be causing damage if you do avoid them.

The main problems are one model unit destroyers, a few key magical items, the spells you have and the way to book is writen

.

Agreed. In addition I think that all of their weaknesses are essentially covered, and that's what bugs me. They can and probably will have around 20 high wound/high toughness models or more. One of the major weaknesses of such an army is usually low number of support elements and vulnerability to shooting. Skaven have neither, thanks to cheap troops and the Storm Banner.

To top that off, their leadership, which is supposed to be a weakness is essentially better than any army that has to take leadership checks, perhaps with the exception of dwarves and lizards.

Abominations are a problem because they can and DO massacre units very easily. You said to avoid it but its not exactly a slow moving beast, it isnt dictated by line of sight and its stubborn on leadership 8 (and if I was a skaven player id realyl try to get a BSB In there to make that rerollable). Another stubborn terror causer is the steggadon, its only leadership 6 but you 3 dice it so its basically leadership 8-9. Thats fine for the points cost except when we wander over to abomination territory we find it can really handle itself in combat, so you've got the staying power, the break protection AND you're damn hard to kill, harder to kill than a giant, it can also be given magical attacks and MR (1) for damn cheap too! Everyone who plays the game has the right to complain about it but I'm not saying to get rid of it, its not part of the game and it CAN be taken out and it does have weakness's just like every other model in the game, I just wouldnt take it in friendly games if I were you, not if you wanted to make friends anyway

Well said, and I'm still shocked that people tend to think that random movement is a bad thing. The lack of facing means it can't be drawn anywhere and shouldn't be out of the fight for too long. If an opponent manages to keep it out of the fight for so long, it's because you're lucky, not because you've used good tactics.

Doomwheels! Oh boy I love this guy, one of his misfire results means he gets better, isnt it wonderful? The main problem with this guy is that he's about as tough as a greater daemon (jsut with no 5+ ward save) and he's a mobile weapon platform, you gain the the old warp lgihtning cannon in a mobile form that shoots 3 times except it wont penetrate a unit like a cannon, but the main thing about warplightning is that it does D6 wounds, meaning just park yourself next to a wood and watch all the local mages in such woods (a tried and true Elf magic user tactic) they're going to be tasty tasty meat for the next skaven all Elf BBQ chilli cookout. But the foremost problem iwth the doomwheel is its badly writen rules, they're too inaccurately written and need revising, until then im only concerned about its shooting phase (and that it does it in combat).

This thing is scary, and while I have no problem seeing one of these types of models, the fact that it is supported by other deadly, difficult to kill things, make it tough.

[Aethyr]

Doom and Darkness would be ideal vs a abomination, and the spells might be ok vs a mainly T3 enemy, plus making some of our units cause terror or fear is a nice supplement, but i guess, by no means the answer.

[SpellArcher]

Wither is a powerful spell.

It has a short range though and unless the Skaven player is repeatedly hitting you with must-dispel casts you'll have the resources to stop it.

[geoguswrek]

Make them follow the eagle. Avoid this unit. Don't try and beat it, it is simply too dangerous. If you can't lure it out, LEARN IT.

So the 500 point furnace unit doesn't die, it doesn't go below half strength, In other words all that happens is it goes off and eventually claims a table quarter? in an army that is ridiculously good at non engagement and points denial.

The A bomb, better known as, Hell pit Abomination: Avoid or wear down, our only options.

Again, doesn't die, just goes and acumulates a few points = win.

[Stormie]

You cynic! You're right, of course.

It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't get bonus MR on the Furnace. I did quite jammily manage to get Curse of Years off on the Furnace unit in my game and my opponent was even unfortunate enough to roll a 1-1 in his RiP dispel attempt, to get me half the unit. It'd be the perfect unit for a Flames of the Phoenix otherwise.

[orka]

My view at 2000/2250 against Skaven would be:

archmage/mage/bsb list with a few light units
change to Teclis/scroll caddy/Battle Banner if he isn't a friend of yours

But I haven't played against Skaven yet.

[Dreadlord Blooay]

My view at 2000/2250 against Skaven would be:

archmage/mage/bsb list with a few light units
change to Teclis/scroll caddy/Battle Banner if he isn't a friend of yours

But I haven't played against Skaven yet.

Skaven is slightly like wood elves, fight against them in fair terms, you should usually win, but you will probably always find them... on your flank.