Dealing with Doomwheel is small games

[Gildor777]

I played in a tournament this weekend, 500 pts. I was doing pretty well until my last game against skaven. The guy took a block of slaves, a block of rats and 3 packmasters, a unit of clan rats, a level 2 mage, and a doomwheel. I had a level 1 with reaver bow, and RBT, 10 archers, an eagle and 6 swordmasters.

Anyways, he hid the doomwheel behind units for the first 2 turns (there were no hills on the board). He never got the doomwheel into combat, and I was able to kill off his clanrats with shooting and over half the rats/masters. I also kept the slaves out of combat. I still lost 20-0. He killed absolutely everything on the board with the damned wheel.

In small games (I have to play him next week at 1000pts.) what can you do against this thing? You can't redirect or marchblock it with the eagle. I was marchblocking other units for a bit with the eagle until he got close and blasted it apart with warplighting. You can't fly a noble of eagle with starlance in to auto-kill it (it acts like a chariot except in the one way that would be a weakness). At toughness 6, its damn hard to wound. Oh, and its potentially fast as hell. HELP!

[Wildling04]

I'd love a clarification on how this thing moves, too. I was hoping as a last ditch effort that I could throw an eagle between it and something I didn't want it to charge. Does it have a special rule that allows it to pivot or wheel twice?

[Flame of the Asuryan]

Should move in a straight line. But nothing is clear. Skaven book is more based on sole interpretation than the bible, so we reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaallly want that FAQ....

[Gildor777]

Wildling, as far as I understand it (and my opponent played it), it can pivot once then must move in a straight line from there.

[Siegfried VII]

...Skaven book is more based on sole interpretation than the bible...

LOL

[Lantheya]

[...]
Anyways, he hid the doomwheel behind units for the first 2 turns (there were no hills on the board). He never got the doomwheel into combat, and I was able to kill off his clanrats with shooting and over half the rats/masters. I also kept the slaves out of combat. I still lost 20-0. He killed absolutely everything on the board with the damned wheel.

Maybe I am wrong, but I am sure the Doonwheel is a large target, so you would always be able to shoot at it. And as soon as you wound it, he has to roll for fail function. I would suggest singe shots from the boltthrower to deal with it.
Beside that, did he pass every leadership test so he did not fire in his own units?

[Greenman]

doomwheel is a large target and has 45 degree charge arc,like other units...i played 2000pts against dem dirty rats last week-got absolutely yammered.my oppo had quite a shooty army too.i came to the conclusion you can't have too many bolt throwers.

[Gildor777]

Yes, the doomwheel is a large target, but it hid behind a hill for a turn, and I had a crapload of rats headed toward the RBT in the meantime. He either passed the LD check, or he fried a couple slaves which was no big deal to him. As long as he got it close to me, his warp-lightning could hit my targets (how the hell it doesn't require LOS or distance is freaking beyond me). I am taking two RBT and 10 LSG against it next week at 1000, along with a L2 Mage, but that is a ton of points to put into stopping a 150 monstrosity. It either wrecks me, or is enough of a distraction that his other 850 pts. can ruin my day.

I don't think he will take a lot of magic in our 1000 pt. game, so I am thinking ring of fury and heavens on the L2 might be a good combination (hoping to get the D6 S4 no AS spell).

[Alathenar]

Anyways, he hid the doomwheel behind units for the first 2 turns (there were no hills on the board).

Yes, the doomwheel is a large target, but it hid behind a hill for a turn

...What?

[Tethli§§]

Where I play it is ruled as a monster since it doesnt have the chariot rule, but skaven players
object to this so I am not quite sure.

But bottomline for me atleast is that beast cowers can keep it away for enough turn that you
can shoot it(it is large target).

Check out how they define it where you play.

[Prince of Spires]

But bottomline for me atleast is that beast cowers can keep it away for enough turn that you
can shoot it(it is large target).

IIRC the doomwheel has a rule that if it doesn't move in its turn, it is automatically destroyed. That would mean that beast cowers would auto-destroy it in your turn. (not sure if it is also destroyed when it doesn't move because it is in combat).

Rod

[Gildor777]

Sorry Swiftswordmaster--I meant to say no hills on my side of the board.

[Alathenar]

No problem. In my first game against the new Skaven, my first RBT shot took 3 wounds off it, then it went out of control into my WL's then i finished it off with a Lion Chariot in the flank. so RBT fire good against it(RBT good against everything ).just watch out with putting things like Chariots and multi wound things near it, S 6,8 or 10 warp lightning bolts can be very painful.

[WarpPhoenix]

The thing that jumped out at me was your Level 1 with the REAVER BOW. He's only BS 4 and should always be either moving or marching around. Drop the reaver bow and take up seerstaff and, since its a monster, you can probably beast cowers it to keep it in place to zap his own guys.

And the way I interprit the movement of the Doomwheel seems pretty simple to me. It moves like a chariot, a chariot must declare charges and such and is allowed ONE wheel during a charge and all chargable targets must be in charge sight, however due to its random movement it is allowed to roll for his movement first and then declare charges, much like a frenzied charge except you dont premeasure, allowing charge reactions on the target as normal. For any Skaven player to try and wheel AROUND you during a charge to flank you with a doomwheel is more than pushing the limit, its down right cheating the system, and no one is having fun that way. Its like activating the storm banner every turn, wheres the fun in that for christs sake?

Anyway the best way to take out a doomwheel for us is really just a bolt thrower or if you can pull it off without getting zapped a dragon with a lord ontop with a star lance. At 1k points id probably suggest 2 level 2s, one with seerstaff the other with silver wand and getting beast cowers with the seerstaff and some damage spells with the other one, and taking banner of sorcer on a dragon prince unit of 5, getting the most out of our strong magic items. core can be whatever you want really and if you can fit 2 bolt throwers in without your list getting too low on troops then great, but you'll probably need to only have 1 at 1k points, maybe you could take two if you dont mind all your troops being spearelves.

[saintjon]

If it stops moving it dies so if you can target it with beast cowers then it's cooked. might as well start picking out your other beast lore spells right now since if beast cowers can be cast on a doomwheel then you will want it every single game against skaven.

[WarpPhoenix]

Well it moves like a chariot but it MUST be classed as a monster if it's on a larger than 40x40mm base and isnt classed as anything, it will be a monster with the US of its wounds, thus a monster. At least thats my interpritation anyway. Besides it would make perfect sense, stop the rats with beast cowers and the wheel stops moving, no?

And depending on your own setup you'll probably want either Bears anger (depending on how many avalible targets are in the list for this) or Wolf Hunts for your cavalry if you have any, if not you might as well go with Crows feast for globadiers and to a lesser extent all kinds of runners and censer bearers.

EDIT: Also it doesnt die if it stops moving, it only dies if the amount of dice it can roll for its movement reaches zero, which i wouldnt count as happening. Because he could still roll those dice to see how far he would have moved and then just not be able to use it. Beasts would also be nice on the Abomb and anything like that. The problem is also that it can still shoot its laser beam which does D6 wounds (amazing). I also wonder if howler wind would work on all shots that roll a strength 4 or less.

[saintjon]

Wow those rules are wacky. So what affects the amount of dice it can roll for movement then?

[WarpPhoenix]

When it misfires a 1-2 result means something... somewhat bad. One of the effects is that you roll one less D6 for the rest of the game for its movement, when that reaches zero it falls over and presumably everyone involved with the doomwheel gets the hell out of there.

[saintjon]

Man that's strange. Almost not worth bothering having the rule since it sounds like it will hardly ever come up.

[Gildor777]

There is no way I can run 2 level 2s plus the banner in a unit of dragon princes at 1000 pts and have anything left over to deal with the rest of the army (he still has 850 pts left remember). Those units plus a unit of 10 archers already puts me close to 800 points, which is enough for basically a 22 spears and thats it.

The reason for the reaver bow was that it was a tournament, and the 3 S5 shots with the RBT and a unit of archers really put the hurt on Chaos Warriors and DE. I also got CoAA against the DE, which after I sent an eagle to eat the sorceress worked VERY well.

[WarpPhoenix]

Then you could just take a level 2 with seerstaff, or take a noble to use the reaver bow. Its a lot better of a bow when it hits on 2s instead of 4s. You're never going to find something to deal with the doomwheel for its points, you're going to have to accept that one.

And putting the hurt on Chaos warriors with shooting? I assume you mean against their marauders. Because a unit of warriors shouldnt get dented by your shooting (unless you were lucky). Its just a waste of points on the mage is all im saying.

[Gildor777]

I actually was quite happy with the Bow and Silver wand combination. at 150 points, it gave me some magic defense, 2 spells to choose from (hopefully a 2 dice and potentially a 1 dice try), and added to my shooting each round. I was usually hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s or 3s, so 1-2 kills a turn really starts knocking off ranks. I got a couple DE COR with it, along with a couple marauder horsemen and some rats. I would have taken the noble with it, but I was afraid of VC showing up and not having any defense (turns out they never did show).

I accept I probably can't point for point kill the doomwheel. I am probably going to take next week:
L2 w/Seer, PS
Noble w/GW, DA, Ring of Fury in PG unit
10 LSG w/ sh.
RBT
15 Spears w/SB and Mus.
11 PG w/ SB and Warbanner
6 Swordmasters

[Gildor777]

Just thought I would give an update. I played the skaven player today and managed a 20-0 massacre. I got really lucky on the doomwheel. He hid him behind a wood my first turn, second turn moved up but was closer to his units than mine. Third turn I got a wound on him through the RBT, but he rolled on the miscast that the damn thing sped up. His 3rd turn he rolled a 2,1,1,1 for movement my fourth turn i got one more wound through, and the thing ended up charging his own clanrat unit in the flank, killed 5 and helped me win the combat that was ongoing between the clanrats, and my 11 PG and 15 Spears. I then ran off the clanrats, ran into the wheel, and then broke it in combat and ran it down.

It really comes down to rolling on that thing. A bit better dice and he could have really done me some harm. He got 3 strength 8 shots onto my one RBT, but only caused 1 wound to the machine. Had he killed it, I would not have wounded it the next turn causing it to crash into his own unit. He also got very unlucky with the 4 dice only moving 5 inches (BTW, how the hell does that miscast result actually HELP him?!)

[Alathenar]

(BTW, how the hell does that miscast result actually HELP him?!)

Skaven either do things all the way or screw up all the way, none of this in-between business.