A way past the Plague Censer Toughness tests.

[yellowcommissar]

If I am doing this correctly, I think this tactic is effective.

The Plague Censer tests are taken "at the beginning of any Close Combat phase". Refering to page 32 BRB, this appears to happen before I "pick one of the combats on the table and resolve it". Therefore only the unit in base contact at the beginning of the phase must take toughness tests. If this were say, an Eagle that would be 1 test.

If I then resolve a different combat first and happen to overrun or pursue into the combat with the Censer Bearers, I get to fight but do not need to take any toughness tests.

Now, of course I need to set up a favorable overrun or pursuit path to effect this, but if I can manage it, I think the tactical advantage is large.

[Sturen]

That seems correct, though tough (lol pun) to set up. And of course your opponent wouldn't like it much

You could mash you way through the whole battleline with a large DP BB unit if lots of enemies relied on toughness tests to deal their damage, I'm not sure if that's the case though.

And of course you would need to take a toughness test from the combat you overrun from

[yellowcommissar]

If I am correct, this would seem to also work with the Shroud of Dripping Death, and the Banner of the Under-Empire. Maybe this is not intended to work this way, I'm not sure. Going to have to discuss with my Skaven opponents, I think.

[geoguswrek]

nice, i'd missed that one.

[NoOoDLe]

I think your Skaven opponent might try to shove a plague censer down your throat if you explain this to him..

[geoguswrek]

Nooooooooodle: whats wrong with it? the rules are pretty specific, they gain protection from chariots and so on because of it, so they have to just deal with losing out a little bit.

[NoOoDLe]

Still.. It's nitpicking the rules.. =P You never receive gratitude of that. ;]

[WarpPhoenix]

personally I wouldnt use this against any skaven player under the strict agreement that the storm banner is one use only ;p

[yellowcommissar]

I think your Skaven opponent might try to shove a plague censer down your throat if you explain this to him..

Not likely.

I really don't see how playing by the rules is nitpicking.

I didn't really enjoy hearing that my Standard of Balance didn't work against the Banner of Rage or whatever its called. It wasn't pleasant watching my Swordmasters get overrun and wiped out, but the rule read pretty clear to me. I didn't tell my opponent he was "nitpicking", and I certainly didn't try to shove his standard bearer down his throat. I simply finished the game. I lost that game, but it was awfully close and still fun.

Sometimes rules work in my favor, sometimes they do not. I don't pick and choose which ones to follow, that would be "nitpicking".

[chris_havoc]

I'd say unless it's FAQ'd otherwise it's legitimate. If you have the prowess to be in this situation you've outplayed the rules effectiveness. Like forcing Dark Elves to pursue to take advantage of their hatred.

[Keith]

This is not correct. Censer hits are handled just like impact hits. You don't do them until you go to resolve that specific combat.

[Stormie]

Indeed this is what the rules say, but the game is FAR smoother if you consider each "resolve at the start of the combat phase" action to mean at the start of each round of combat. If you really want to play it this way, consider everything else you must do at the start of the combat phase- impact hits have been mentioned, but also challenges should be declared at the same time. If an opponent tried to deny me censer/ impact hits because of this rule I would begrudgingly accept- but ONLY if he has been playing by the rules for the start of the combat phase for the rest of the game.

[Keith]

I would zero someone's sportsmanship if they pulled this on me in a tournament.

So we have a lot of things that happen 'at the start of close combat'

Impact hits
Challenges
war dancers choose their dances
plague censer hits.
Units with multiple weapon choices must choose what they are fighting with.


Does this all happen at the same time, before any combat is chosen?


Seems pretty stupid to me. and hard to keep track of. Or you can play like a sane person not trying to rules lawyer themselves out of a bad situation and resolve each fight as you get to it.



The rules support this. If you have a unit of knights beat a small detachement of empire swordsmen and overrun into the flank of a steam tank who is already engaged with a unit of spearelves. When that fight happens the tank randomizes it hits into the two units. I don't recall where that ruling is, but it might be one of the BRB FAQs.

[geoguswrek]

Keith: "at the start of close combat" and "at the start of the combat phase" are different things.

[Wildling04]

Yep, start of the close combat phase is much different than the start of close combat.

[yellowcommissar]

I would zero someone's sportsmanship if they pulled this on me in a tournament.

My, sir, what a good sport you are!

Excuse me for playing by the rules.

[Alathenar]

If 2 people during a game can't come to an agreement, just have a roll off. on a 4+ whatever you think should happen will happen. Done. I've done that many times and we both just accepted the dice roll when we came to things that were iffy.

[Keith]

I would zero someone's sportsmanship if they pulled this on me in a tournament.

My, sir, what a good sport you are!

Excuse me for playing by the rules.

Read the description of the item, it is clear that the toughness tests are for anyone in btb with them AT ALL. The Skaven book has already been recognized as extremely poorly editted and written with rules incorrect or unclear.

So I guess you won't mind when my Doomwheel charges 36 inches and you don't get a reaction to it... strickly speaking, that is how its rules are worded.

[Stormie]

Keith: "at the start of close combat" and "at the start of the combat phase" are different things.

Yep, start of the close combat phase is much different than the start of close combat.

Why are you quoting sections of the rules that don't exist? I might not agree with keith's bombastic zero-sports response, but he is basically right on the rules. You can tell because the content of his post was identical to my own.

Some actual rules quotes for you, rather than ones you've misremembered to support your argument:
Challenges: "In each turn before working out any close combat, each side is allowed to issue challenges", P76. So yes, this too should happen at the same time as Plague censer tests, at the very start of the phase...
Impact hits: "These hits are inflicted at the very beginning of the combat, even before challenges are declared and before any model gets to attack", P63. So, before challenges, which happen before choosing a fight to resolve.
Interestingly, weapon choice is only decided at the start of a combat, rather than at the start of the phase as with the other two, which indicates that since an enemy would not get a chance to choose his hand weapon and shield until after the impact hits have happened, so they should not gain the +1 armour save for parrying.

So, in conclusion, if you do want to "play by the rules" and only count PCB tests as being as the start of the phase, I won't condemn you for it- but you better be declaring all challenges and resolving all impact hits at the start of the combat phase as well...

[Foxbat]

Stormie, maybe GW wants the Plague Censer attacks to be resolved even before impact hits. If this is true, then the wording of the Plague Censer rule would be specific and should use “close combat phase” rather than the more general “each combat” or “any close combat” as noted in the references you have noted.

Are we sure that the Plague Censer rule does not say “start of any close combat phase”?

If this is not the intent (i.e. censer hits before impact), then how do you suggest resolving impact hits and Plague Censer hits?

[Keith]

It just seems so un-needed to me. If you got PCB's to charge an eagle, then overrun/pursue into them, they are already engaged and then have flanks/rears. If you flank them you are basing at most, what two? Seems unsporting to take advantage of unclear rules when you can beat them easily with tactics... do you know what rocks PCBs? Chariots, and you don't even need the lion variety to do so.

[SpellArcher]

Feels a bit odd to me. I'm with Keith and Stomie on a gameplay basis.

[Foxbat]

Agreed it’s odd, but not without precedent as demonstrated by the ToL.

BTW, I announce I'm using the ToL at the start of the CC phase (i.e. before any combats etc).

[Keith]

Agreed it’s odd, but not without precedent as demonstrated by the ToL.

BTW, I announce I'm using the ToL at the start of the CC phase (i.e. before any combats etc).

Most people announce it at the start of the relevant combat.


But I don't see any logical reason why anything should be at the start of the phase rather than at the start of the combat involving the bearer, or the model inflicting impact hits. etc.


For everyone nit picking the rules. Would you rather skaven players play the doomwheel the way its rules currently dictate? Where it doesn't charge at all it just contacts you and you are in combat with it. It can circle around you and rear charge you even though it started in the front because it doesn't actually charge, and you get no reaction!!!

Also, the storm banner is not one use only. Also, neither are warpstone tokens. Are you really encouraging people to play a book as written when it needs an FAQ/Errata more than any other army book GW has produced for fantasy?

Or would you rather use common sense and try an have an enjoyable game?

[Foxbat]

... Would you rather skaven players play the doomwheel the way its rules currently dictate? Where it doesn't charge at all it just contacts you and you are in combat with it. It can circle around you and rear charge you even though it started in the front because it doesn't actually charge, and you get no reaction!!!

Until there is a more a fulsome erratum on this or FAQ, I only require that the model charge the same facing that it started its movement from.

Also, the storm banner is not one use only.

No, its one time use item as that is how I read it.

Or would you rather use common sense and try and have an enjoyable game?

Try playing with the above interpretations and see if you have an enjoyable game, I know that I do.

[Wildling04]

I'm not arguing one way or another for the toughness tests as I don't know the wording of the rule. My point was simply that there is a difference between "at the start of the close combat phase" and "at the start of close/combat." There are, as mentioned rules to support this as some items/effects do take place at the start of the close combat phase. ToL is one and Word of Agony for Chaos is another iirc. Those are two off the top of my head.

@Stormie, you perfectly illustrated the point and you should read the posts more carefully. We were saying that "close combat" is DIFFERENT from "close combat phase." Impact hits and challenges don't use the word "phase" in them. IE: close combat = each separate fight, close combat phase = the entire phase, all of the fights combined. Again, I'm not arguing on the skaven point as I haven't read it. All I'm saying is there is precedent and language to support the difference between "close combat" and "close combat phase."

@Keith, unless an army book rule specifically contradicts the BRB, then you should still have to follow rules for the BRB as in the case of the doomwheel. Again I haven't read it, but unless it says that it can charge any location, it needs to obey the rules all other units have.

[Stormie]

Wildling, did you not bother to read my post, with the quotes laid out nicely for you? You're either misreading or misinterpreting the rules horribly. I didn't write the rules out for my own amusement you know Go back and look again, you'll see those rules do say to do those things "before working out any close combat", which is the same thing as if they said to do them at the start of the phase. Declare ALL challenges for the phase, and do impacts before that, then pick a fight and work out the rest. It certainly doesn't mean "at the start of each combat you resolve", although we do all play the game as if it did, for sanity's sake. And so we ought to with all similar effects, IMO. To re-iterate, they say to perform the actions before working out combat- which would mean you only do them at the beginning of the phase...

[Keith]

I'm not arguing one way or another for the toughness tests as I don't know the wording of the rule. My point was simply that there is a difference between "at the start of the close combat phase" and "at the start of close/combat." There are, as mentioned rules to support this as some items/effects do take place at the start of the close combat phase. ToL is one and Word of Agony for Chaos is another iirc. Those are two off the top of my head.

@Stormie, you perfectly illustrated the point and you should read the posts more carefully. We were saying that "close combat" is DIFFERENT from "close combat phase." Impact hits and challenges don't use the word "phase" in them. IE: close combat = each separate fight, close combat phase = the entire phase, all of the fights combined. Again, I'm not arguing on the skaven point as I haven't read it. All I'm saying is there is precedent and language to support the difference between "close combat" and "close combat phase."

@Keith, unless an army book rule specifically contradicts the BRB, then you should still have to follow rules for the BRB as in the case of the doomwheel. Again I haven't read it, but unless it says that it can charge any location, it needs to obey the rules all other units have.

The doomwheel states that if it contacts an enemy model it counts as having charged in the following close combat phase... It never says it actually charged you, I enter combat by contacting!! You never get a reaction, I can 'contact' you on any side of your unit provided i have the movement. An example game including it on GW website has it shooting into its own combat even though it doesn't have any rule that allows it to do so. It is a mess rules wise.

The other thing is even if you play as if you charge normally, it 'moves like a chariot' so do you double the distance rolled to determine its movement value to charge?

The Storm banner doesn't state 'one use only' so how can you argue it is. I get that it intended to be. But it isn't that clear text wise.

In any case guys. Win with tactics, not rules. The censer gas thing seems to me to be the latter.

[Foxbat]

Stormie, I think the problem is that he meaning of “any close combat” in the challenge rule noted, which can be read as “any and all close combats” or “any particular close combat”. Unfortunately, to make the former work, “combat” would have to be pluralised. As this is not as written, one really has to take it to mean the latter and that challenges should be done within the sequence (i.e. combat-by-combat) and not at the start of the phase.

As for impact hits, the rule would just follow along with the logic you had originally pointed out, so in this case the impact hits would be done on a combat-by-combat and not at the start of the phase.

[Wildling04]

Wildling, did you not bother to read my post, with the quotes laid out nicely for you? You're either misreading or misinterpreting the rules horribly. I didn't write the rules out for my own amusement you know Go back and look again, you'll see those rules do say to do those things "before working out any close combat", which is the same thing as if they said to do them at the start of the phase. Declare ALL challenges for the phase, and do impacts before that, then pick a fight and work out the rest. It certainly doesn't mean "at the start of each combat you resolve", although we do all play the game as if it did, for sanity's sake. And so we ought to with all similar effects, IMO. To re-iterate, they say to perform the actions before working out combat- which would mean you only do them at the beginning of the phase...

Not to belabor the point, as Foxbat makes it clearer, hopefully, but you aren't seeing the nuance.

You mention "combat" which again, is each individual battle in the phase. Please read p. 32. "A combat is a fight between a single unit of troops from each side...." It then goes on to explain that multiple units may be involved in a single combat. Thus, you should be extrapolating "combat" to the other rules you have quoted; ie a single fight. The chariot rule says" Hits are inflicted at the beginning of the combat." In other words, hits are inflicted at the beginning of that specific fight. The same is true of challenges, which uses the language "each combat." This would make no sense if you take it to mean the entire phase.

The reason I said your argument supports the point is due the idea that:

combat/close combat = each individual fight within a combat phase.
close combat phase = the sum total of all close combats (fights) in a player's turn.

Ok, I did belabor the point, but again the definition of "combat" is very clear on p.32. In no way should combat or something relating to close combat, be interpreted to mean the entire phase.