Dealing with the Screaming Bell

Discuss your tactics for the 7th Ed army book here, together with tactics for other races.

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Fwum
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Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#1 Post by Fwum »

Met my friends Skaven earlier this week, and for the first time he tried out the screaming bell in a unit of storm vermin. I thought the game went very well for me, it ending with him only having the bell unit and a few clanrats left, but the game ended in a draw as the bell unit was about half of his army, pointwise. I really had no idea how to deal with it in a good way, it just have all these really good special rules that together makes it such a pain to deal with. MR negates magic, and with the unbreakable rats around it close combat is really no good idea (especially if the bell strikes 13...). Shooting the unit might be the best option, but as of now skaven have so many other high priority targets, like the Doomwheel, and that damnable storm banner effectively removes at least one round of shooting. The problem is not only that the Bell in itself was very dangerous, but that it denied so much points the total annahilation of the rest of his army just didn't matter for victory.

Advice how to deal with it greatly appreciated!
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

You can target the Grey Seer in close combat. The Bell is not the threat here that a Furnace is so you can afford to engage it. White Lions should hold it up but have you tried just charging it with Swordmasters?
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#3 Post by WarpPhoenix »

Unit of white lions in the front (they'll hold the line) and sword masters on the side, they'll just keep chomping through the vermin until it cant bep ushed anymore.
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Fwum
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#4 Post by Fwum »

Swordmasters might actually work quite well, as they statistically kill the seer if in base contact. Then again, I really don't see them coming into combat, as they would die if only even one weapon team looked at them in an funny way. I don't have any right now, but they're on my wish list, and i'd love to try them. That combine charge with WL also sound great, but if you (like me) don't have any large numbers of our elite infantery, what should you do?
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Flame of the Asuryan
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#5 Post by Flame of the Asuryan »

I would ask you what kind of list you have and what your modelrange is, thats what I should do.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#6 Post by SpellArcher »

What about a big unit of spears with maybe a combat BSB in?
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Alathenar
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#7 Post by Alathenar »

And don't forget the Rat Ogre that rings the bell aswell, he gets to attack :D
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#8 Post by Fwum »

Got mostly core and cavalry, nothing very exciting. The list I used (2250):

Lords and Heroes
Archmage: Lv 4, Silver Wand, Folariath's Robe, Ring of Fury
Mage: Lv2, Seerstaff, scroll, elven steed
Noble: BSB, barded steed, DA, shield, Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, Talisman of loec

Core
23 Spearelves: Full cmd, Banner of Arcane Protection
21 Spearelves
10 Archers

Special
6 Dragon princes: Champ, skeinsliver, Standard, Banner of Sorcery
5 Silver Helms x2
Tiranoc chariot
5 Shadow Warriors

Rare
2 Bold throwers
Eagle


I play mostly core heavy armies as my model range is sort of limited, this list have most of my models. I know my lack of elite infantry is a weakness as they are great, planning to get some as soon as possible.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#9 Post by Hoof&Mouth »

I also play skaven and Sword Masters are the best thing to throw at it. The Rat ogre will kill one or 2 a round, but with 4 SM's and 8 attacks a turn, the seer dies in like 2 turns.
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Tethlis
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#10 Post by Tethlis »

Shoot the Bell with bolt throwers, especially once the Storm Banner fires up and cripples your shooting. The Large Target means your Bolt Throwers will still have a good chance to hit, and there's a great likelihood that you'll hit the Greyseer and kill him off. Once some wounds have been knocked off, you can charge with some Strength 6 to kill off the Bell and immediately make the Bell's unit vulnerable to being broken. Long-term combat with the Bell is risky, because some of the Bell rolls can utterly ream lightly-armored Elven infantry. Free rounds of combat with re-rolls, or letting the entire unit attack at once (25+ Storm Vermin) can shatter most units you use to tank the Bell.
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Hoof&Mouth
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#11 Post by Hoof&Mouth »

Shooting the sear off the bell is almost impossible. Once you hit the bell only 1/6 will hit the sear, only 1/2 these will wound ( assuming str 4 bolts ) and then 1/2 of these will get ward saved. thats 24 Repeater Bolt HITS for one wound. Not to mention the unsual kit for sears included skalm to heal him. HE dont have the artillery to one shot the sear and that leaves HtH.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#12 Post by Tethlis »

You wouldn't want to use the multiple shot, but the single shot instead. I dropped a Greyseer on Turn 2 in my last game, but that's not the point. The probability for killing the Greyseer is small, but it's still possible. Overall though, killing the Seer isn't the point of shooting at the bell, it's simply an added bonus. As soon as the Storm Banner becomes active, bolt throwers won't have much to shoot at anyway. The first priority for shooting will likely be an HPA or Doomwheel, but since those will be dashing in-and-out of combat and cruising up the flanks with 3D6 movement, they won't always be a visible target. The Bell and Furnace will be centrally located, almost always visible, and are much easier to tackle from range than in close combat (the Furnace especially, since it doesn't have a Ward save.) If you manage to pick the Greyseer or Plague Priest off the top, then that's even better. By eradicating the bell/furnace, then suddenly the entire unit (bell/furnace character, and the 25+ models pushing it) becomes an easy target. Keeping in mind that the Greyseer has a tremendous probability of wounding himself through other means (Warpstone Tokens, miscasts) it's rare you'll see a Greyseer with full wounds in the later turns of the game. As soon as Stormbanner expires, there may be more worthwhile targets. While that -2 is active though, the Bell/Furnace is a safe default to still get efficient use out of your shooting phase.
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Hoof&Mouth
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#13 Post by Hoof&Mouth »

I wish you nothing but the best in shooting up the bell. Your killing of the seer with a single bolt was a shot blessed by the everqueen, as you had a 1/66 chance of doing so.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#14 Post by SpellArcher »

I'd go for the Furnace every time.

No Ward and you really don't want to engage it.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#15 Post by Tethlis »

Hoof&Mouth wrote:I wish you nothing but the best in shooting up the bell. Your killing of the seer with a single bolt was a shot blessed by the everqueen, as you had a 1/66 chance of doing so.
You're still missing the point. People who toss out probability often fail to acknowledge that unlikely events are still possible. Yes, outright killing a Grey Seer with a single shot is a small chance. However, what are some of the other results that can come from firing at the bell? If you take the chance to kill the Seer outright, add in the chance of doing one wound to the Seer, add in the chance of doing two wounds, then add in the chance of doing Wounds to the Bell itself, then compare that to what happens when you shoot at other likely targets when Storm banner is active, and suddenly shooting at the Bell/Furnace during Storm Banner makes a lot more sense.

When Storm Banner is active, the Bell is a good target because your shooting will do nothing versus most other Skaven targets. Since High Elves don't have a satisfactory way of killing the Bell/Furnace in close combat short of a Star Dragon, a few single shots at either of these contraptions are shooting phases well-spent. It's an intermediary step for the period of time that the Storm Banner's active.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#16 Post by geoguswrek »

Tethlis wrote: You're still missing the point. People who toss out probability often fail to acknowledge that unlikely events are still possible. Yes, outright killing a Grey Seer with a single shot is a small chance. However, what are some of the other results that can come from firing at the bell? If you take the chance to kill the Seer outright, add in the chance of doing one wound to the Seer, add in the chance of doing two wounds, then add in the chance of doing Wounds to the Bell itself, then compare that to what happens when you shoot at other likely targets when Storm banner is active, and suddenly shooting at the Bell/Furnace during Storm Banner makes a lot more sense.

Even if you do succesfully hit and wound the GS you do an average of one wound, similarly for the Bell (that ward save is the killer). i'd shoot the furnace, but it just isn't efficient to shoot the bell. The reason for this is because it isn't worth wasting a bolt thrower on a very low probability unless you don't have another choice. For example if you single bolt the bell in hopes of the 1/66 of killing outright and you do this 66 times it will work out once (ignoring the possibility of otherwise wounding the seer). Now you have used 6600 points to kill 200(i know, you get six turns, but even then it is 1100 to 200). hardly a winning option. There are much more efficient targets, and often ones that are more helpful to kill (the infantry say)

When Storm Banner is active, the Bell is a good target because your shooting will do nothing versus most other Skaven targets. Since High Elves don't have a satisfactory way of killing the Bell/Furnace in close combat short of a Star Dragon, a few single shots at either of these contraptions are shooting phases well-spent. It's an intermediary step for the period of time that the Storm Banner's active

The Furnace is much more effective to shoot at when the banner is on, unbreakable plague priests are more annoying, since they are expensive, and otherwise, easy to kill. The Doomwheel and the warmachines are also options, even with storm in play.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#17 Post by Tethlis »

I still think the point is being missed here.
Even if you do succesfully hit and wound the GS you do an average of one wound, similarly for the Bell (that ward save is the killer). i'd shoot the furnace, but it just isn't efficient to shoot the bell. The reason for this is because it isn't worth wasting a bolt thrower on a very low probability unless you don't have another choice. For example if you single bolt the bell in hopes of the 1/66 of killing outright and you do this 66 times it will work out once (ignoring the possibility of otherwise wounding the seer). Now you have used 6600 points to kill 200(i know, you get six turns, but even then it is 1100 to 200). hardly a winning option. There are much more efficient targets, and often ones that are more helpful to kill (the infantry say)
Why are you calculating the probability of killing the Seer outright? That's not the purpose of shooting at the Bell. If you inflict any wound on the Seer, whether it be one wound, two wounds, or three wounds, that's a succesful use of a bolt thrower. If you inflict any wound on the Bell, whether it be one wound, two wounds or three wounds, that's a successful use of a bolt thrower. If you kill the Seer, fabulous. If you manage to inflict a wound on any part of that model, also fabulous.

If the Doomwheel is an available and viable target, then you should be shooting at the Doomwheel. Given that most Skaven players will probably NOT have their Doomwheels hanging around a lot as bolt thrower fodder, whereas the Screaming Bell WILL almost always be visible, the Screaming Bell is a good back-up option. If there's an HPA or Doomwheel bearing down on you, then by all means fire at them.

As for the option of "shooting infantry", I don't see the appeal of firing 6 shots (hitting on a 5+ with Storm banner modifier) at a unit of Skaven infantry. You're going to kill a mighty... One Plague rat. Does that seem like a more efficient use of your shooting phase than potentially softening up the Bell?

If you're a Dark Elf player, and you're shooting repeater crossbows at someone, you have to resolve whether you're shooting double-shots or single shots. Probability dictates that the outcome of both single-shot and double-shot are pretty close, and likely to yield the exact same result. However, double shot is still the best choice. Why? You're allowing room for luck. If you fire 10 single shots, and they all hit and they all wound, then you've inflicted ten wounds. However, if you fire 20 shots, that's a maximum possibility of 20 wounds. By creating more opportunities for good luck to come into play, you have the opportunity to create a more devastating shooting phase.

The same applies for the Bell. Yes, if you have targets that you think are better (and I don't consider Skaven infantry a better target while the Storm Banner's active) then by all means shoot at the better target. However, I still wouldn't discard the idea of shooting single-bolt shots at the Bell, especially if you plan on attacking it close combat later.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#18 Post by GobbladasSquig »

I'd say the key is to pick one target and concentrate on it. The new skaven can look very very intimidating with several large toughness 5-6 thingies pushed at you. The worst possible scenario is that you panic and throw one single bolt here and another there, not really reducing the effectiveness of any of them. Start with one and bring it down, then pick another. If your army relies on single models doing damage (dragons, chariots, other monsters) I'd start with the Doomwheel. If you have a lot of magic and the grey seer is preventing you from flaming the abomination or whatever, I'd blast the Bell with everything. And I mean everything, archers, bolt throwers, shadow warriors, everything.

Good deployment and march blocking are essential against the new skaven.

'Squiggedit: Oh yeah, and I'd probably single bolt too. But if the seer/bell only had 1 wound left, then I'd fire volleys.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#19 Post by Hoof&Mouth »

Agree with Georgus, shooting up the furnace is a good idea, shoooting up the bell a bad idea.
attacking the furnace in Hth is bad attcking the bell in hth is good. Just about every infantry
unit in the high elf list should win against the bell unit.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#20 Post by Lord Aenarion »

I would like to point out that the list you used is illegal. Your Archmage can only have one enchanted item.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#21 Post by Tethlis »

Hoof&Mouth wrote:Just about every infantry
unit in the high elf list should win against the bell unit.
And be stuck there the rest of the game. Watch out for an HPA, Doomwheel, Censer Bearers, Giant Rats, Rat Ogres, Doomflayer in the flank.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#22 Post by geoguswrek »

Tethlis wrote:I still think the point is being missed here.

Why are you calculating the probability of killing the Seer outright? That's not the purpose of shooting at the Bell. If you inflict any wound on the Seer, whether it be one wound, two wounds, or three wounds, that's a succesful use of a bolt thrower. If you inflict any wound on the Bell, whether it be one wound, two wounds or three wounds, that's a successful use of a bolt thrower. If you kill the Seer, fabulous. If you manage to inflict a wound on any part of that model, also fabulous.

First off, i was not calculating any probabilities, merely pointing out some obvious averages and questioning whether this is an efficient use of bolters. Secondly: Why is it fabulous? you need to kill the bell for it to be worth shooting it in the first place (it is certainly not worth 100 VP's for half wounds) And to kill it you need to do six wounds, which is an average of 12 bolt throwers hits, which means 3-4 turns at least. If by this point your opponent has failed to either protect the bell from shooting or to kill your warmachines when his troops are moving unmolested by shooting, you probably would win shooting other stuff anyway. Honestly, if you are shooting the Bell, why aren't you shooting an HPA which is easier to wound than the bell and a bigger threat. Even with the banner there are many better targets, indeed the other three large targets would be ahead of it on the list, along with the warmachines and some of the infantry (even with storm in play, i'd go for the jezzails over the GS on bell with bolters. THe GS is BEGGING to be shot with archers.

As for the option of "shooting infantry", I don't see the appeal of firing 6 shots (hitting on a 5+ with Storm banner modifier) at a unit of Skaven infantry. You're going to kill a mighty... One Plague rat. Does that seem like a more efficient use of your shooting phase than potentially softening up the Bell?

Plague rats? i'd be firing at the units where i'm removing ranks, or where concentrated fire can cause a panic test. Where 3 bolters will cause an average of half a wound to a Bell, it'll cause an average of 4 wounds to a unit of infatnry, on the smaller units, this is a panic test. Besides, i won't kill the bell with bolters, so it is wasted, the chipping of a few rats will eventually be useful to me, wounds on the bell less so.

If you're a Dark Elf player, and you're shooting repeater crossbows at someone, you have to resolve whether you're shooting double-shots or single shots. Probability dictates that the outcome of both single-shot and double-shot are pretty close, and likely to yield the exact same result. However, double shot is still the best choice. Why? You're allowing room for luck. If you fire 10 single shots, and they all hit and they all wound, then you've inflicted ten wounds. However, if you fire 20 shots, that's a maximum possibility of 20 wounds. By creating more opportunities for good luck to come into play, you have the opportunity to create a more devastating shooting phase.

this isn't always true. Alot of the time the double shot has a higher average. for example when hitting on 3's you have a 2/3 of hitting, when double-shooting gives you hitting on 4's, meaning half hitting, but with twice as many shots = average of 2/3:1 ratio. What you are actually doing in the case where it is truly the same average is playing with variance. By having more shots, you insure yourself against a bad roll (it is less likely you get way below average on a lot of dice than on a few) as well as giving the opportunity to get a good roll. Your plan allows the opportunity for good rolls, but does not insure against bad ones, so the dark elf analogy doesn't fit.

The same applies for the Bell. Yes, if you have targets that you think are better (and I don't consider Skaven infantry a better target while the Storm Banner's active) then by all means shoot at the better target. However, I still wouldn't discard the idea of shooting single-bolt shots at the Bell, especially if you plan on attacking it close combat later.
I don't believe the banner changes what is a good target and what is not. The ratios of damage will remain relatively similar for each unit and shooting option for when the banner is on and off, the only difference is he effect: instead of 3 infantry: 1/2 wound on the bell, we see 1 infantry: 1/6 wounds on the bell for example.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#23 Post by Fwum »

Lord Aenarion wrote:I would like to point out that the list you used is illegal. Your Archmage can only have one enchanted item.
Thanks, stupid mistake of me. Still, he never saw combat, so no real damage was done to the game.

Personally I think it is a waste to shoot the bell, as some posters have pointed out. The chance of actually doing damage is very small, and with all the new scary high priority targets, a turn you can afford shooting single bolts at a bell is a novelty at best. And not to forget is that the bell gets a free one die ring every high strength wound, moving it forward at a much faster rate. Seems more viable to shoot at the unit bringing them down to 10 models or less to slow it down, and then engage at your own terms, if you have the firepower to spare. Especially with storm vermin, who die almost as easily to volleys as clanrats, but often have a lower body count.

A thought I have been entertaining is a prince with Sword of leaping gold, armour of stars and the talisman of loec. In close combat he reliably kills the seer and then teleports away to avoid being stuck with the bell unit. Sure, its not what you would call an optimal build, but it would be quite fun to try.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#24 Post by Alathenar »

Furnace, Doomwheel, Hellpit > Bell.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#25 Post by Keith »

I would like to point out that elven infantry only really beat the bell on a turn when it doesn't charge you. up to 6 dead elves from impact hits before you get to attack can lead to the elven infrantry losing very quickly. since you are also probably down static combat rez, you might end up losing by a lot, and running (unless you are white lions.)

Considering how many more units the skaven player is likely to have, i would imagine he would get the charge on you more often than not.
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Tethlis
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#26 Post by Tethlis »

Fighting the Bell with infantry isn't a good idea, unless the game is virtually over. They'll either be there the rest of the game, until they get flanked and destroyed by another Skaven unit, or until the Bell rolls the result that allows the entire Bell unit to make their attacks.
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Re: Dealing with the Screaming Bell

#27 Post by Hoof&Mouth »

As I see it there are 3 targets in the skaven list that must be dealt with at range in the following order.
AbominationF, Plauge censer bearers, and to a much lesser extent, Furnace.

The abomination should draw every power dice you have with fireball, firey blast ect.....
The PCB's and furnace can both be shot up with bows and RBT's, but I have found it pretty frustrating
trying to slip any shooting wounds in on the HPA.
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