Hi all I recently did my third game against dwarfs (its a friend of mine who recently started to collect dwarfs)
First game we played was on 500points and it was a total massacre to his advantage since nothing I fielded came in close combat except 2modells of spearmens and 1modell of phoenix guard (y)
and I've played 2 games of 1500 wich is the size we usually run with the people I play with (that and 2000) havent tried out 2000yet but figure it will be a bit easier due to dragon but we will se.
However today when I played him I decided to try some new units out that I had never tried before (and since our last 1500I also got shoot down to pieces) since the other 1500list I tried was with 3magicians I wanted to try completly reverse this time.
My list was as following;
characters:
Noble BSB HA GW with battle banner
Noble with shadow armour with GW and talisman of loec.
Noble with barded steed blade of sea gold Heavy armour (HA) shield and gem of courage.
Core
20spearmens full command and war banner (bsb was here)
Special;
8shadow warriors with champion (noble with shadow armour was here)
6dragon princes full command and ellyrion banner. (mounted general was here)
Ellyrion reavers 6x with a musician
Swordmasters 10x with champ
5white lions.
Rare:
eagle.
this was the list I was running and it got utterly smashed to pieces (altho all the infantery died because he had a copper that I didnt even knew he had the modell for)
His list was something like:
characters:
1Rune "guy"
1close combat guy
1 engineer:
other stuff:
20warriors (his general was here)
15hammerers (his runedude was here)
10thunderers ith shields.
10quarellers with shield.
1grudge thrower (engineer was here)
2bolt throwers
and the copper (think that was all)
How on earth do people deal with dwarfs?
Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters
Re: How on earth do people deal with dwarfs?
oh forgot to say 
anyone got any tip on how to fight dwarfs or have any suggestions on what to bring or anything because right now he basicly just shoots up everything I use (the modells that aint there that I got is the following)
15PG's with full command
3mage on foot
1mage on horse
1mage on dragon
1prince on star dragon
1noble/prince on foot
10archers
1lion chariot
1Bolt thrower
anyone got any tip on how to fight dwarfs or have any suggestions on what to bring or anything because right now he basicly just shoots up everything I use (the modells that aint there that I got is the following)15PG's with full command
3mage on foot
1mage on horse
1mage on dragon
1prince on star dragon
1noble/prince on foot
10archers
1lion chariot
1Bolt thrower
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Eagle_Claw
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:25 pm
Re: How on earth do people deal with dwarfs?
Well since I play dwarves as well as elves I'll try to tell you the best I can. It looks like he is playing a complete gunline list, all bullets and warmachines so he probably just sits back and shoots you. Against that kind of list it is going to be hard to win without something hard hitting and fast. I see that you have some of this in your list plus the shadow warriors.
The thing to remember about the list he is playing is that you will have a VP advantage when it comes to the table quarters. After all he probably will never leave his side of the board, so something you may want to consider is bringing some ranged. I know it is hard when our archers aren't that great but RBTs work great agasint dwarves, exspecially hammers. Going through the ranks as well as getting rid of the armor save on the first two. Plus he is never going to threaten them except with the gyrocopter so they are alost completely safe.
Second don't expect to get much magic off. In small games dwarves have a big advantage in spell defense. So unless you are taking all mages you aren't going to bust through that.
Third I know most people will scream sacralige but dwarves have a hard time killing any skirmishers without organ guns. They just can't shoot them to death. It is expensive but if you can strech them out you can give yourself a bit of protection versus his guns for a couple of turns. Expensive I know but shadow warriors have a hard time with dwarf gun crews anyway.
So the basics behind us lets talk about the list. The heros look okay though you might want to look at the shadow armor lord. While it does give your shadow warriors some punch in melee he is quite vulnerable. For the mounted lord just remember that if you take a magic weapon you don't get to use the lance and the sword at the same time.
Your core might want to replace with archers. They can hold a table quarter and while they might not kill much with their arrows just the quarter prettty up makes their points just by themselves. Just aim them at something without a ton of armor.
For specials you need things that can survive shooting, this tends toward pheonix guard and white lions for infantry and an of the cavelry. So I would either bring more white lions or pheonix guard. They might actually survive getting to the enemy intact. Cavelry is in general great because you can get to the enemy and hit them hard.
For the rares I actually don't like the eagle against dwarves. The reason being that dwarves are some of the hardest warmachine crews out there. Eagles can't always take them alone and you can't arch block dwarves. A RBT from you can take the other table quarter and fire at any of those ranked only okay armored dwarves.
The thing to remember about the list he is playing is that you will have a VP advantage when it comes to the table quarters. After all he probably will never leave his side of the board, so something you may want to consider is bringing some ranged. I know it is hard when our archers aren't that great but RBTs work great agasint dwarves, exspecially hammers. Going through the ranks as well as getting rid of the armor save on the first two. Plus he is never going to threaten them except with the gyrocopter so they are alost completely safe.
Second don't expect to get much magic off. In small games dwarves have a big advantage in spell defense. So unless you are taking all mages you aren't going to bust through that.
Third I know most people will scream sacralige but dwarves have a hard time killing any skirmishers without organ guns. They just can't shoot them to death. It is expensive but if you can strech them out you can give yourself a bit of protection versus his guns for a couple of turns. Expensive I know but shadow warriors have a hard time with dwarf gun crews anyway.
So the basics behind us lets talk about the list. The heros look okay though you might want to look at the shadow armor lord. While it does give your shadow warriors some punch in melee he is quite vulnerable. For the mounted lord just remember that if you take a magic weapon you don't get to use the lance and the sword at the same time.
Your core might want to replace with archers. They can hold a table quarter and while they might not kill much with their arrows just the quarter prettty up makes their points just by themselves. Just aim them at something without a ton of armor.
For specials you need things that can survive shooting, this tends toward pheonix guard and white lions for infantry and an of the cavelry. So I would either bring more white lions or pheonix guard. They might actually survive getting to the enemy intact. Cavelry is in general great because you can get to the enemy and hit them hard.
For the rares I actually don't like the eagle against dwarves. The reason being that dwarves are some of the hardest warmachine crews out there. Eagles can't always take them alone and you can't arch block dwarves. A RBT from you can take the other table quarter and fire at any of those ranked only okay armored dwarves.
Re: How on earth do people deal with dwarfs?
Can't capture or contest table quarters with an RBT as it is not Unit Strength 5.
RBT's do work well against dwarves. Use them to take out his shooting units like thunderers and quarrelers who will have at best a 5+ armor save vs shooting which will be negated. They can also be used to try and take out artillery crew but this is much less effective with 2/3 of all shots falling on the machine. Dwarves also rely on big blocks to protect their war machines but they're extremely SLOW!! Use this to your advantage by avoiding his ranked units and hitting his war machines with your cavalry. Make sure to avoid showing your flank to a bolt thrower or cannon though. A dwarf player will usually deploy in a tight formation. By Deploying on a flank with cavalry you may force your opponent to place his combat units further to a flank. Use this by sending your much faster cavalry across the field forcing his big block to spend the next 3-4 turns trying to make it back to where the battle will be happening.
Also, his thunderers and quarrelers are move or fire. Stay out of their line of sight as best you can forcing them to move and thus waste a turn to shoot. I agree about the eagles. An eagle is going to get beat time and again by dwarven crewmen. Even if it does manage to kill one they'll be testing as stubborn leadership 9.
Avoid Organ Guns like the plague! Especially with Cavalry as the Str 5, -3 to AS is brutal.
RBT's do work well against dwarves. Use them to take out his shooting units like thunderers and quarrelers who will have at best a 5+ armor save vs shooting which will be negated. They can also be used to try and take out artillery crew but this is much less effective with 2/3 of all shots falling on the machine. Dwarves also rely on big blocks to protect their war machines but they're extremely SLOW!! Use this to your advantage by avoiding his ranked units and hitting his war machines with your cavalry. Make sure to avoid showing your flank to a bolt thrower or cannon though. A dwarf player will usually deploy in a tight formation. By Deploying on a flank with cavalry you may force your opponent to place his combat units further to a flank. Use this by sending your much faster cavalry across the field forcing his big block to spend the next 3-4 turns trying to make it back to where the battle will be happening.
Also, his thunderers and quarrelers are move or fire. Stay out of their line of sight as best you can forcing them to move and thus waste a turn to shoot. I agree about the eagles. An eagle is going to get beat time and again by dwarven crewmen. Even if it does manage to kill one they'll be testing as stubborn leadership 9.
Avoid Organ Guns like the plague! Especially with Cavalry as the Str 5, -3 to AS is brutal.
Midnight Legion Painting Blog: http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30693
Re: How on earth do people deal with dwarfs?
Well, I take it you guys aren't playing with lords. If he brings the anvil you have a whole new problem on your hands, but as for what it seems like he is running I would try some sneaky stuff.
Bring cheap eagles. and a few units of FC (Fast Cav). Run them together right at his war machines. He has to choose one. You can place your FC where minimal guys in his gunlines can see them, so he might shoot the eagle. Either way, stay at long range so he isn't as effective and make sure both units (eagle and FC) can see his unit to charge next round. If he takes the eagle, great! 50 points and you are now killing his offense. It isn't how many points you get for his unit, it is how many points you are stopping him from killing. If you have 2 eagles and 2 FC you have 4 targets he needs to take out. If you have your shadow warriors in there, even better. If you do things right you can set it up where you can overcharge right into the next unit without ever being out of combat for him to shoot you again.
Other than that, bring magic and heavy shooting! If he has big blocks of dwarfs with a 2+ armor save, bring lore of metal with Teclis. Cast the Spirit of the Forge spell and get 2D6 hits at str 6. It might be an armor save of 3+ but that is still str5.
Then use all your bolts to take out his gun lines. Bring the Skeinsliver item to try to go first and take those guys out. All you have to do is kill 25% of his unit to get it to panic. They have high ld, but still happens. If you get the gunline taken care of, do what I said with the eagle and FC unit. He can only target so much.
Bring cheap eagles. and a few units of FC (Fast Cav). Run them together right at his war machines. He has to choose one. You can place your FC where minimal guys in his gunlines can see them, so he might shoot the eagle. Either way, stay at long range so he isn't as effective and make sure both units (eagle and FC) can see his unit to charge next round. If he takes the eagle, great! 50 points and you are now killing his offense. It isn't how many points you get for his unit, it is how many points you are stopping him from killing. If you have 2 eagles and 2 FC you have 4 targets he needs to take out. If you have your shadow warriors in there, even better. If you do things right you can set it up where you can overcharge right into the next unit without ever being out of combat for him to shoot you again.
Other than that, bring magic and heavy shooting! If he has big blocks of dwarfs with a 2+ armor save, bring lore of metal with Teclis. Cast the Spirit of the Forge spell and get 2D6 hits at str 6. It might be an armor save of 3+ but that is still str5.
Then use all your bolts to take out his gun lines. Bring the Skeinsliver item to try to go first and take those guys out. All you have to do is kill 25% of his unit to get it to panic. They have high ld, but still happens. If you get the gunline taken care of, do what I said with the eagle and FC unit. He can only target so much.
Re: How on earth do people deal with dwarfs?
archers struggle REALLY hard to kill dwarfs of any kind, I recommend finding some points to bump those spears to sea guard, then they can shoot while they advance, even dwarfs start to feel it when they dwell on a hill and you can have your whole unit shooting at them. if they put a war machine on a hill so much the better, with the whole unit firing some arrows are going to find the crew. avoid ironbreakers like the plague. The best you can do in toe to toe with them is if if your white lions kill as many of them as you lose, which is dicey at best. even with the battle banner you will get boned if they have a thane with an oath stone in the unit.
don't plan to fight dwarf crews to win, if you fight them in close combat the benefit is that they aren't shooting you. If your boys win that's a bonus. the best one of my eagles ever did against dwarfs was it refused to be killed by an organ gun crew, my opponent didn't want his organ gun tied up so he used his runesmith general to leave his unit and attack the eagle, at which point my general shot him through the head with the seafarer bow. The moral of that story is that dwarfs don't like their machines to be tied up (most of the time, my dwarf friend is a madman who now feels his machines are expendable in every way) and if you can threaten them with that then hopefully you can throw their plans out of whack. I wouldn't bother with magic south of 2K at all against dwarfs. not worth it, the only way to counter their defense is to throw big piles of dice and then you run the risk of miscasting.
don't plan to fight dwarf crews to win, if you fight them in close combat the benefit is that they aren't shooting you. If your boys win that's a bonus. the best one of my eagles ever did against dwarfs was it refused to be killed by an organ gun crew, my opponent didn't want his organ gun tied up so he used his runesmith general to leave his unit and attack the eagle, at which point my general shot him through the head with the seafarer bow. The moral of that story is that dwarfs don't like their machines to be tied up (most of the time, my dwarf friend is a madman who now feels his machines are expendable in every way) and if you can threaten them with that then hopefully you can throw their plans out of whack. I wouldn't bother with magic south of 2K at all against dwarfs. not worth it, the only way to counter their defense is to throw big piles of dice and then you run the risk of miscasting.