White Lions or Swordmsasters?

Discuss your tactics for the 7th Ed army book here, together with tactics for other races.

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Athanoes
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White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#1 Post by Athanoes »

greetings my fellow warriors, it has been quite some time since I have posted here,
but now I return to you with this interesting dilemma.....

I am to fight a 6000 point battle on the eve on the new year (6000 points each) and I will face the dreaded a combination of Chaos and Dark Elves, as per the agreed limit I am allowed either 4000pts WE and 2000pts HE OR 3000pts WE and 3000pts HE I have decided 3000 a piece. I am to face average size DE units (20-25 infantry and 10 COK) he has several units of these his chaos differs some what he has small units Marauder horsemen a BIG unit of 12 Chaos Knights led by a lord and a Massive 40 Strong unit of chaos warriors w/shields deployed 10 wide 4 deep again led by a Chaos Lord they have the Blasted Standard (ward save versus shooting)
they are realistically to large to avoid however i may be able to engage them on my terms to this end I ask that question of questions: White Lions or Sword masters? and with what combo of magic items?

any other suggestions are welcome!
Last edited by Athanoes on Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Musashi
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#2 Post by Musashi »

Primary Directive - always try to have your allies face-off the Dark Elves.

And if you know what strategy and tactics your enemy will be employing, come up with stuff that will frustrate him.- A DE force that cannot come to grips with your primary forces is going to be wasting it's time, which is where the Treehuggers come in.
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Alathenar
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#3 Post by Alathenar »

Personally I would take both WL's and SM's :D . Keep the SM's clear from DE and their shooting(however possible) and if he takes Black Guard there probly ASF so DO NOT ENGAGE THEM! but make a pincussion out of them :D . And try not to miscast if the chaos have puppet...puppet=dead mages.
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Athanoes
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#4 Post by Athanoes »

my opponent is my dad who has been playing wargames longer than my life span though he is relatively new to WHFB he plays very much like a general playing games with large formations, he never fields infantry smaller than 25 and cavalry less than 10 (hes been known to field 2 units of 15 COK) because of the size of his units ive had to rethink how i play warhammer, a favored tactic of our armies if to deploy small units of 7 SM and such like, a tactic that just wont work on a plus he purchases DE Core differently (or at least with a different plan)
he likes to buy 25-30 spears and 2 units of 10 Crossbows with shields which he uses very similar to an empire detachment (in base contact with the flanks of spears) i charge 1, i charge them all

due to the LARGE BLOCKS of troops what would anyone suggest?
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Alathenar
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#5 Post by Alathenar »

Perhaps our own spearmen could finally shine with about 25 of them. Add a Noble for good measure and ur good to go!
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Athanoes
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#6 Post by Athanoes »

thanks! :D
ive recently finished putting together a LSG noble as my core units are all LSG or archers, my list is starting to take shape with that suggestion! =D>
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#7 Post by geoguswrek »

I disagree, lsg aren't the way to go. I'd say use the two armies strengths. something like:
WoodElves:

Treeman Ancient, annoyance of netlings
Weaver, level 4, calaingor's 3 scrolls (don't worry, i'm going somewhere with this one)

Alter, helm of hunt, HoDA, la, shield, great weapon
BSB, both sniper items, horse, la (shoot at DE wizards)

3x10 Archers
3x 8 dryads

9 wardancers, champion
6 wild riders warbanner
2x5 wild riders
3 warhawk riders

2 more treemen.

High elves:

Archmage, level 4, silver wand, ring of fury, 2 powerstones, horse
Mage, level 2, seerstaff, powerstone, horse,
mage, level 2, ring of corin, powerstone, horse
BSB, DP kit, helm of fortune, sword of might

20 spears, banner, muso, warbanner
2x18 spears, banner

14 swordmasters, champion, tal of loec, banner, banner of balance
6 DP, banner, banner of sorc
6 DP, banner, banner of elyrion
14 white lions, banner, lion standard

4 bolters
2 eagles.

Basically they should get no decent turns of shooting, since you can screen everything with dryads and charge the warmachines with your wild riders, then i'd use the ancient into the big unit of chaos knights,a nd throw the other treemen at the other units, each time aiming to open a flank to a charge from some of the heavy hitters.

Oh and use the woodelf magic to put the woods in annoying places where all the woodies and two high elf units can charge.
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Athanoes
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#8 Post by Athanoes »

hmmm that's a good list....

though due to my model restrictions this list will need some modifications

here is a list of my collection for those with any suggetions:

42 Spearelves/LSG (2 CG)
28 Archers (2 CG)
14 SH/DP (converted to be used as both, 2 CG)
10 SW
15 PG (CG)
21 SM (CG)
19 WL (CG)
2 Bolt Throwers
1 Eagle
2 WL chariots

1 Dragon Lord
1 Dragon Mage
3 Mages
1 LSG noble
1 SM noble
1 BSB on foot
1 unbuilt nounted noble


WE:
50 Glade Guard (3 CG)
24 Eternal Guard (CG)
12 Dryads
8 Glade Riders (CG)
15 Wild Riders (2 CG)
24 wardancers (2 CG)
4 Warhawk Riders (CG)
4 Tree kin
14 Waywatchers (2 CG)
2 Treemen

1Alter
1Greatweapon
1 Wild Rider
2 wardancers
3 Spellsingers
1 Branch Nymph
BSB on foot

this close to XMAS i don't have a lot of spare funds but i may be able to add some bits
any suggestions are welcome!

this is what I defiantly know he has he will be adding more but i have no idea what:

40 Chaos Warriors w/shields, command and Shooty ward Save banner (he will field these as one unit)
2x5 Marauder Horsemen
2x5 warhounds
12 Knights (fielded as one unit)
25 Spearelves
2x10 Crossbowmen (he will use like detachments on the spears so maybe another 25 spear +2x10 crossbows)
12 Cold One Knights (one unit)
2 war hydras
20 Black Guard with Kouran & ASF banner
2x5 Dark Riders

3 sorceresses
1mounted Sorceress
Malus Darkblade
1 DE Dragon Lord
1chaos lord on foot
1chaos lord on Daemon mount (maybe using Archaon)
2 chaos mages
Valkia

as i said he will be adding more and leaving some things at home i can say he likes BIG blocks of infantry and Heavy Cavalry and uses lots of small units of Fast cavalry
Last edited by Athanoes on Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
geoguswrek
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#9 Post by geoguswrek »

I admit expecting you to have a million WR is a bit unrealistic.
Seems you can manage most of the HE list, near enough, shame you lose the third treeman, treemen are awesome. Just take more wizards instead.
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Athanoes
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#10 Post by Athanoes »

im only one WR short of your proposed list although i can spend the game avoiding the Chaos warriors but at over 1k in points i would have to slaughter just about every other thing in his army without suffereing massive casualtes myself
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#11 Post by geoguswrek »

put the ancient into the warriors once you have finished with the knights.
Treemen are VERY VERY VERY good with big units.
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Athanoes
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#12 Post by Athanoes »

I had thought to use the treemen to do just that.... use Treekin to hold off the BIG unit until the big trees can get stuck in!

all these tips are helping to form my list & tactics i will use the game is set for the 31st, so any tips? Keep em comin!

im gonna get out my Camera and report on the battle........

but until then! #-o my head will hurt will the many ideas im receiving
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#13 Post by geoguswrek »

Treekin will go down in one round to that big unit mate.
Treeman ancient is the only thing you can put into the two big chaos units. any normal trees should be looking at the Dark elf stuff (where they wound on 2's :) )
As to the big chaos units: stick a treeman ancient w/ annoyance into the knights, he'll eat them eventually, and with 9's with a reroll he should be ok. The warriors should become eagle bait followed by a charge from swordmasters into the flank (in the flank you'll win. Realise how far you can manipulate such a big unit with an eagle.
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#14 Post by ajpieri »

I agree the Treemen are a good way to hold up the big cav unit until you can get a flank, but I have a better way. It doesn't really require great units or military skill, but knowing the rules. I happen to play with a bunch of people that read the rules like a lawyer reads divorce papers and we discovered a crazy rule and an even crazier FAQ that goes along with it. Here it is....

If a unit has a hero on the flank of a unit and an enemy unit charges that unit in its flank and that hero is the only model that the enemy can physically touch, then they can only kill that guy!!! If it was a regular guy, then all wounds go against the unit and they kill a bunch, but not if it is a hero. NOW for the kicker. It states in the rules that champs are not considered heros except for the purpose of shooting. But, in the FAQ someone asked if this rule applied for champions and they said it does.

So, what does this all mean? This means, if they have some beefy unit like this cav unit, all you need to do is bring a unit of fast cav with a champion in it. Run it right up in front of this cav unit and give it the flank that your champ is in. He will not be able to get around you and will have to charge, but will only be able to kill the champ this round. Yes, he will kill the champ and the next round break your unit, so be ready to have a flank charge next round. If he causes fear or terror you might need to bring the immune to fear and terror banner in that unit.

So, shoot that unit the best you can, do this little sneaky move, and hit it hard in the flank with two WL chariots or a beefy unit of Dragon Princes and you might break it.

If you don't want to use this route, which I don't blame you if you don't, bring mages in fast cav units. Keep them away from DE shooting! Let the WEs take care of DE. All the skirmishers should own any shooting the DE have and the wardancers with killing blow and an extra attack from the Treeman's magic, you can take out their heros pretty easy. The Chaos Warriors won't have any shooting and your DPS (magic) is all in FC units running wherever you want. So, keep them out of sight and blast that cav unit with Lore of Metal. 1+ armor will be str7!!! Throw teclis in there, march block that cav unit with eagle. Give one mage the seerstaff and get the lvl6 metal spell. It is on a 12 plus, but you can get it off. With Teclis and the other mage casting The Spirit of the Forge on that cav unit, it will be gone quick. It is nice when they put all their points into one unit. Then Use most of the HE shooting to soften the WoC or depending on how much they have left, help the WEs. The WE should be able to deal with the DE pretty easily on their own.
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Alathenar
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#15 Post by Alathenar »

Athanoes wrote:12 Knights (fielded as one unit)
This just screams for Teclis to take Metal.
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#16 Post by Athanoes »

there's some VERY interesting tactics there! =D>

certainly some to think about, although i might B%$*&slapped by my old man for such an unscrupulous tactic (LOL ! :lol: )
but i would definitely consider metal (actually i'd already decided this was the lore to have) but thanks for comfirming!

keep em comin my list is getting there!
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#17 Post by ajpieri »

Yeah, you will probably have to do this with a unit of Silver Helm since FC can't take magical banners, but it should work. Just make sure you have enough room to wheel enough to expose your flank that has the champ on it lol. And good luck with the old man! I hope he doesn't smack you too hard for this one lol.
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#18 Post by Athanoes »

I wouldn't even try this tactic on him as i said previously he played historical wargames long before i was born ( hes played since he was 12 ) that kind of rule is very unrealistic ( he's see it as 40 elite heavy infantry against a few light cavalry being attacked in the flank which in his rule sets 'and in real life' would mean death for the LC, none of this 'but you are only in base contact with the champion so only he dies!' he has enough difficulty accepting the rule that says i attack first with my Swordmasters wipe out his front rank of men and he cant attack back cos he dead!

this kind of tactic would be good in tornys or such like where both players are using the exact rule set, but he has a lot of trouble converting over to GW's way of thinking......
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#19 Post by geoguswrek »

ajpieri: its an old tk trick, it works whent hey do it since they can afford to lose by 3-4 and not die. We can't. you can't lose by one, and with a flank, banner, rank etc, you WILL lose by 1. and be outnumbered by fear.
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#20 Post by ajpieri »

geoguswrek wrote:ajpieri: its an old tk trick, it works whent hey do it since they can afford to lose by 3-4 and not die. We can't. you can't lose by one, and with a flank, banner, rank etc, you WILL lose by 1. and be outnumbered by fear.
Which is why I said do it with Silver Helms and bring full guard and a magical banner that makes you immune to fear and terror. You should only lose by 2 because they killed the champ and have the flank. I guess in this case they have numbers too, so that is by 3, but it is rare that someone brings such a large unit of cav. Usually cav only has 1 rank because they are expensive and their real power is in the charge, which the second rank has nothing to do with. It is better to bring two units of 5 than 1 unit of 10 imo.
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#21 Post by geoguswrek »

for no apparent reason, silver helms can't have a magic banner. plus: 1 wound + flank + warbanner is up by 3, and you are unlikely to stand, meaning you give away 200 points plus.
Oh and its a chaos unit so it probably has a champion, and a challenge buggers your strategy.
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Athanoes
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#22 Post by Athanoes »

yep 1 chaos knights with full command definitely some funky magic banner and a chaos lord
and then 40 chaos warriors (10x4) with another character and the 5+ ward (vs shooting) banner

the man doesn't quite get the point of smaller units cos he's used to fighting with big units

so maybe this tactic is out?

i'm liking the idea of throwing a treeman at them though!
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#23 Post by JTFCUP »

Athanoes wrote:yep 1 chaos knights with full command definitely some funky magic banner and a chaos lord
and then 40 chaos warriors (10x4) with another character and the 5+ ward (vs shooting) banner
It`s all about the flank charge. No matter how big the unit is when you flank charge it it only gets an outnumber bonus (if you have the standard bearer)

Star Dragon in chaos knights flank and Battle banner + 9DP in warriors flank and you win yourself 2k+ points and game over :)
The best way of setting charges would be if the units are frenzy by pulling them out with eagles or reavers (wood elves do this better).

Dark elves... Shoot, shoot, shoot, make them pursue in the wrong direction (because of hatred) and shoot some more! :) Even 5 2+ Armour save cavalry will fail their save if they roll 20 (that`s WE job)
The Slaughter Now Ensues
Bodies Fall Like Rain
They Valiantly Pursue
Yet Doomed To Remain
At The Double Quick They Charge
The Canister Rips Through Them
To The Mouth Of hell They March
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Athanoes
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Re: White Lions or Swordmsasters?

#24 Post by Athanoes »

the WE will definitely be shooting theres 50 of them!

5 units of 10?
o a few bigger units?
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