Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
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Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Hi boys and girls,
This months topic of discussion is wood elves.
How do you deal with the race that basically doesn't play the same game as everyone else?
This months topic of discussion is wood elves.
How do you deal with the race that basically doesn't play the same game as everyone else?
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=44127
Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
anti-magic (to prevent treesinging), fire magic to kill ancient treeman, maybe even life lore with seerstaff to get master of the woods (to kill stuff hiding in forests) and boltthrowers to kill fast cav that's running around your troops.
The big part is NOT getting flanked. They almost only have fast cav so it's extremly important that you got your flanks covered with fear immune units. Wild riders cause fear on charge (and the round after charge).
The big part is NOT getting flanked. They almost only have fast cav so it's extremly important that you got your flanks covered with fear immune units. Wild riders cause fear on charge (and the round after charge).
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Depends pretty highly on what the woodies are doing. They could be all evasive, in which case my dragon princes with the banner of ellyrion, LSG and bolt throwers have to do all the dirty work, or they go for a heavy hitting melee threat.
The former case, I move my elites back and to the flanks to keep them somewhat out of their field of fire, and just take out targets of opportunity. I minimize the lanes of fire that the enemy can use, such that they either are in a shooting match in small groups, or they aren't shooting at me. I use my unit of dragon princes, keeping them away from the treemen, and blow through as many shooty units that are in the woods as possible.
Against the latter type, I just pretend I'm facing demons, and use my ASF and superior combat resolution to draw out initial combats, and to win every other round. I use my dragon princes to clear one of my flanks and move up the other into their army while firing at big threats like tree men.
The former case, I move my elites back and to the flanks to keep them somewhat out of their field of fire, and just take out targets of opportunity. I minimize the lanes of fire that the enemy can use, such that they either are in a shooting match in small groups, or they aren't shooting at me. I use my unit of dragon princes, keeping them away from the treemen, and blow through as many shooty units that are in the woods as possible.
Against the latter type, I just pretend I'm facing demons, and use my ASF and superior combat resolution to draw out initial combats, and to win every other round. I use my dragon princes to clear one of my flanks and move up the other into their army while firing at big threats like tree men.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Wild Riders only cause fear the turn they charge. They and there mounts get an exrta attack any turn they do not charge.
Shooting is good against the Asrai. I know, I play them as well. Be mindfull of any Alters lurking about as they are faster then the High elves, save dragons and Tiranoc Chariots. Any WE worth there salt will not allow you many shots at his treeman. As a high elf player make sure your pricey Elites are protected against his shooting.
I frequently weight my flanks as WE so I can get your flanks. I will use the Hail of Doom arrow plus my archers, which are better then the HE archers because mine move every turn without penalty. I have no problem firing my HOD arrow at DP's and bolt throwers.
The biggest advantage we have against the WE is ASF. This is lethal against most of the WE units. When I play the WE do not plan on seeing me charge you until turn 4-5. I will dodge and weave and be annoying for quite some time while I shoot at you. This increases my chances of winning later. I will indeed come after you when I see opportunities to kill the mages.
Shooting is good against the Asrai. I know, I play them as well. Be mindfull of any Alters lurking about as they are faster then the High elves, save dragons and Tiranoc Chariots. Any WE worth there salt will not allow you many shots at his treeman. As a high elf player make sure your pricey Elites are protected against his shooting.
I frequently weight my flanks as WE so I can get your flanks. I will use the Hail of Doom arrow plus my archers, which are better then the HE archers because mine move every turn without penalty. I have no problem firing my HOD arrow at DP's and bolt throwers.
The biggest advantage we have against the WE is ASF. This is lethal against most of the WE units. When I play the WE do not plan on seeing me charge you until turn 4-5. I will dodge and weave and be annoying for quite some time while I shoot at you. This increases my chances of winning later. I will indeed come after you when I see opportunities to kill the mages.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Its been many games since I've gotten in combat with anything other then a treeman. Basically they have lots of cheap (under 150pt) untis that sprawl from edge to edge. Even if you get to their bowline and you break through you get one, maybe two units worth under 150 while you're taking 40 shots a turn to your t3 guys.
so here it is: wood elves, along with dark elves and daemons are one of the reasons I've started taking big lsg units. why? because you cant go chasing 10 wood elf units with 8 high elf ones. you need to engage them in a firefight, and lsg are great for that because you have the 5+ save and extra wounds. the 24 inch range on the bows is a hassle, which is why I have 1 unit of archers and 1 unit of lsg. along with 2 rbt you can focus fire on a unit of archers a turn and put lots of hurt on them (10 archers and 2 rbt average 6-7 wounds a turn).
keep rbts near the edges of your missile units for protection against the full brunt of their missile power. so either they try to shoot the rbt with half a unit and waste other shots, or they shoot your own lsg/archers which is what you want.
so even if you contest the missile fight it encourages the wood elf player to come out to play, which is what you want.
To be honest there arent many fights you can win. This ASF is too good stuff wood elf players come up is a pile of bullcrap because the truth is there shouldnt ever be a 1v1 fight. Even with it their dryads, dancers, treemen + alter beat most of the stuff we have. so there are only a few matchups that work for us: lions with amulet into treemen, swordmasters (1 rank) into dryads or wardancers, spears into treekin or wild riders.
Regarding magic, I find wood elf players are very paranoid about losing models so they will stock up on excess magic defense so that doesnt do squat.
So thats my 2cents.
LA
so here it is: wood elves, along with dark elves and daemons are one of the reasons I've started taking big lsg units. why? because you cant go chasing 10 wood elf units with 8 high elf ones. you need to engage them in a firefight, and lsg are great for that because you have the 5+ save and extra wounds. the 24 inch range on the bows is a hassle, which is why I have 1 unit of archers and 1 unit of lsg. along with 2 rbt you can focus fire on a unit of archers a turn and put lots of hurt on them (10 archers and 2 rbt average 6-7 wounds a turn).
keep rbts near the edges of your missile units for protection against the full brunt of their missile power. so either they try to shoot the rbt with half a unit and waste other shots, or they shoot your own lsg/archers which is what you want.
so even if you contest the missile fight it encourages the wood elf player to come out to play, which is what you want.
To be honest there arent many fights you can win. This ASF is too good stuff wood elf players come up is a pile of bullcrap because the truth is there shouldnt ever be a 1v1 fight. Even with it their dryads, dancers, treemen + alter beat most of the stuff we have. so there are only a few matchups that work for us: lions with amulet into treemen, swordmasters (1 rank) into dryads or wardancers, spears into treekin or wild riders.
Regarding magic, I find wood elf players are very paranoid about losing models so they will stock up on excess magic defense so that doesnt do squat.
So thats my 2cents.
LA
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
a 1+ rerolling save BSB goes a long way. The only units you have to avoid are the wardancers (because of killingblow) and the trees, everything else he'll beat or at least hold up.
DAMN THE VENOM SWORD
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
I've had a few different experiences against wood elves and can't add a lot to what others have said. My first experience taking them on is everything is either Fast Cavalry or skirmish. This means it is nearly impossible to marchblock them as their skirmish units, which they usually have quite a few of, will be able to charge 360 line of sight. So you might be able to redirect a unit. Though I guess if your opponent leaves treekin, cavalry or the treeman in a place you can sit your eagle it would be worth march blocking. Otherwise the WE player will likely not care about being march blocked as he will be dancing around avoiding combat anyway.
Most games I've played against wood elves I've played against a friend of mine who despises their magic lore so usually only brings a spell caddy. In games where I've brought my Dragon Mage (and kept him alive) he's brought down a lot of pain on to everything. Magic missiles are a great way of taking out skirmishers that hide in trees for -2 to our shooting.
Some special things to watch out for. Highborn with Bow of Loren and Arcane bodkins. He'll be sending 4 str 3 shots with no armor saves at your cavalry.
Be careful of getting within 19" of Glade guard as they can move 5" and then shoot you at short range which is then Str 4.
RBT's are great against all armies but even more so against wood elves because of their T3 and minimal to 0 armor saves.
All forest spirits are immune to psychology so keep that in mind if you are ever charging them you know they can't flee. They also lose their 5+ ward save if you hit them with a magical weapon, or ranged magic attack. Amulet of light as stated earlier is great to have somewhere in your army to remove their ward saves. Another reason why magic missiles are so good.
If your opponent does go the magic route be careful when travelling into trees even with the Ellyrion banner as their Default spell Treesinging can be cast to do damage as well as move the trees.
In general I tend to find them very annoying to fight as I do all skirmishers but High Elves do well in combat with any of their elves and try and pick your battles against their monsters.
Most games I've played against wood elves I've played against a friend of mine who despises their magic lore so usually only brings a spell caddy. In games where I've brought my Dragon Mage (and kept him alive) he's brought down a lot of pain on to everything. Magic missiles are a great way of taking out skirmishers that hide in trees for -2 to our shooting.
Some special things to watch out for. Highborn with Bow of Loren and Arcane bodkins. He'll be sending 4 str 3 shots with no armor saves at your cavalry.
Be careful of getting within 19" of Glade guard as they can move 5" and then shoot you at short range which is then Str 4.
RBT's are great against all armies but even more so against wood elves because of their T3 and minimal to 0 armor saves.
All forest spirits are immune to psychology so keep that in mind if you are ever charging them you know they can't flee. They also lose their 5+ ward save if you hit them with a magical weapon, or ranged magic attack. Amulet of light as stated earlier is great to have somewhere in your army to remove their ward saves. Another reason why magic missiles are so good.
If your opponent does go the magic route be careful when travelling into trees even with the Ellyrion banner as their Default spell Treesinging can be cast to do damage as well as move the trees.
In general I tend to find them very annoying to fight as I do all skirmishers but High Elves do well in combat with any of their elves and try and pick your battles against their monsters.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
I won two fights in a row against two different wood elf players with big sea guard units and lots of magic bows. I can't add much that hasn't been said except that if you stick curse of arrow attraction you can take down a big unit of dryads with one decent turn of shooting. Wardancers can't seem to deal with seaguard very well either. I believe treesinging has a max range that isn't really ridiculous. The first guy I played stuck both his mages in an archer unit, I guess he figured the dryad spam, treeman and big wardancer mob would draw all fire but I saved an RBT and panicked them right out of usefulness, which left his treeman unable to move his bush he was hiding in, which left him getting shot to pieces in turn 2. that game went pretty good I gotta say. Facing 10+ units with lots of archers and stuff seems like a pain. Maybe you can't marchblock with your eagles too usefully but against panzy fellow elves maybe you could double them up or team a single eagle with another unit to hit something and make it hurt, or at least draw some fire. Do you guys think Heavens Lore might be worthwhile against them? that celestial shield spell could be pretty useful.
Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Our magic bows are really good against them, some say our bows are better then there's! And they are the so called archery experts!
I havn't versed them in quite awhile but i remember that if you put an RBT or 2 on each flank it can help funnel them in to the center more and prevent all the flanking they need to do to win combats, not that they need to be in combat. I wouldn't recommend SM's against them as they will vanish really quickly. WL's and PG are the best bet for infantry against them. WL's with AoL can chip away at a Treeman.
I havn't versed them in quite awhile but i remember that if you put an RBT or 2 on each flank it can help funnel them in to the center more and prevent all the flanking they need to do to win combats, not that they need to be in combat. I wouldn't recommend SM's against them as they will vanish really quickly. WL's and PG are the best bet for infantry against them. WL's with AoL can chip away at a Treeman.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
My arch enemy is WE, as I in the local club always tends up to fight against the same player, who always has hes trustworthy WE. Always a good match, but we're also learned a lot from each others armies.
WE can go, many a route actually. There is the forest spirit, which is a mental breakdown between you, trying to shoot them to crap, and them, moving closer and closer for the kill. However, they won't beat swordmasters if they hit their front. And they can't flee, so charge away (not always, only if a good opportunity shows.) Locking your own force on a minimal area and creating no flanks, makes the enemy chose between getting shot to pieces, or try and concentrate all of hes forces on one unit, let that unit be swordmasters. There is also the shooty, which generally won't have you see any combat, at all. Now we can try and outshoot them and probably get a good kill out of it, including our magic and arrow attraction. However, you might also just want get in close and personal. You will naturally need blocks of a somewhat feel of big, cause once you get close enough they will open hell. Dragon princes, phoenix guard (yes really!) and white lions excel at this job. A good note is, magic is really good against the Asrai, can never go truly wrong. Also, fast movement and static res can beat them, as long as you doesn't get them outmaneuvered. (Note this is much harder to achieve than it sounds, since WE are practically made to exploit peoples flanks and rears.) Swordmasters are a good idea against dryads, as well as the lore of heaven, just to make a 4+ ward shield against their shooting.
Yeah, or just try and play against them. You learn much more from that...
WE can go, many a route actually. There is the forest spirit, which is a mental breakdown between you, trying to shoot them to crap, and them, moving closer and closer for the kill. However, they won't beat swordmasters if they hit their front. And they can't flee, so charge away (not always, only if a good opportunity shows.) Locking your own force on a minimal area and creating no flanks, makes the enemy chose between getting shot to pieces, or try and concentrate all of hes forces on one unit, let that unit be swordmasters. There is also the shooty, which generally won't have you see any combat, at all. Now we can try and outshoot them and probably get a good kill out of it, including our magic and arrow attraction. However, you might also just want get in close and personal. You will naturally need blocks of a somewhat feel of big, cause once you get close enough they will open hell. Dragon princes, phoenix guard (yes really!) and white lions excel at this job. A good note is, magic is really good against the Asrai, can never go truly wrong. Also, fast movement and static res can beat them, as long as you doesn't get them outmaneuvered. (Note this is much harder to achieve than it sounds, since WE are practically made to exploit peoples flanks and rears.) Swordmasters are a good idea against dryads, as well as the lore of heaven, just to make a 4+ ward shield against their shooting.
Yeah, or just try and play against them. You learn much more from that...
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Lore of Metal FTW. I find that Lore of Fire doesn't help all that much against Treemen/Treekin since they are T6/5. Spirit of the Forge can drop a Tree in 1-2 turns.
Castle up and kill off their support units with shooting and magic (molten silver, even Spirit can work on Wild Riders wounding them on 5's). I never engage the enemy, I wait for them to approach me. White Lions chop down the Treeman and my PG will fight Treekin, Dryads etc.
I would never bring chariots against them as these are easily destroyed. Screen Swordmasters if you bring them.
If you've got space for it, Annulian Crystal is pretty good agains them as most WE lsits nowadays bring a Spellweaver backed by 2 casters and a Treeman (with his bound spell).
If they bring Eternal Guard with a BSB, kill him off and they lose their stubborn. That unit is so overcosted right now it's not funny. If they have a Highborn with them, then he probably has the Rhymer's Harp, (giving them all a 5+Ward) and the Annoyance of Netlings (which means he can only be hit on 6's in a challenge). Snipe him with Rule of Burning Iron, it might not do much but every bit of damage counts. Unleash the Talisman of Loec on him and win the day.
Castle up and kill off their support units with shooting and magic (molten silver, even Spirit can work on Wild Riders wounding them on 5's). I never engage the enemy, I wait for them to approach me. White Lions chop down the Treeman and my PG will fight Treekin, Dryads etc.
I would never bring chariots against them as these are easily destroyed. Screen Swordmasters if you bring them.
If you've got space for it, Annulian Crystal is pretty good agains them as most WE lsits nowadays bring a Spellweaver backed by 2 casters and a Treeman (with his bound spell).
If they bring Eternal Guard with a BSB, kill him off and they lose their stubborn. That unit is so overcosted right now it's not funny. If they have a Highborn with them, then he probably has the Rhymer's Harp, (giving them all a 5+Ward) and the Annoyance of Netlings (which means he can only be hit on 6's in a challenge). Snipe him with Rule of Burning Iron, it might not do much but every bit of damage counts. Unleash the Talisman of Loec on him and win the day.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
GP: i don't know about the magic-users in a wood elf army, seems to me that they take level 4, bsb +/- alter.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Yeah we do have better magic bows, lol!
They have a lot of magic defence items.
They have a lot of magic defence items.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
@Geoguswrek I tend to face a Level 4 Weaver, a Level 2 Singer and a Level 1 Branchy (along with an Alter). With a Treeman, they can spam Treesinging about 6-7 times per phase. I let them get the spell off a few times, stopping them when the forest would interfere with my plans. It's Call of the Hunt (movement spell) and Ariel's Blessing (regen) that I need to dispel.
It's different from place to place from what I've seen. My old WE setup was the same from above.
It's different from place to place from what I've seen. My old WE setup was the same from above.
Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
I'm mainly a WE player. I have brought them to about 6 GT's so far. I will be playing High Elves for at least the next year.
There are a number of thing that High Elves players have use that gave me trouble. I played a mixed WE army but it primarily was focused on Close Combat so I advanced aggresively.
1. Magic Missil spam. Lore of Fire. Concentrait on Wild Riders and Dryads 1st. A single d6 fireball really hurts these units. A 2d6 Fireball cast on a Treeman will probably do 2 wounds (flamming are doubled) but you'll need 6's to wound so target them last. If you have seer LIfe can be good (Master of Wood, Howler ect)
2. Cover your flanks(duh). Use terrain/units/board edge to prevent a 2 on 1s. Beware a Treekin(T5) and Dryad team up. Even to the front. They will have numbers and cause fear so auto-break could happen.
3. Protect your characters from Treemen. (Arch Mages ect) I would send mine right at an archmage. He can't be challanged and will kill alot of characters. If he loses he is stubborn on an 8 (with a bsb around thats a 96% to stay forever) so what. Get your mages out of there if posible. But don't go in a forrest . (Double Alters are good at killing characters as well)
4. Know what the Magic items do. Some of the best are:
Annoyence Of Nettlings-6's to hit in a challange(with a ward save almost no wounds will be scored)
Hail of Doom-3d6 st4 BS6 (2+ to hit) shots. You'll just have to eat this in most cases.
Wand of the Wych elm-reroll all dispels (great against bounds/anything)
C-Staff-spam treesinging
Amber Pendant-you go last no matter what
Bow of Loren+Arcane Bodkins-4/5 str3 no AS BS6 shots
Against Woodies I would sit back and project force and set up favorable combats/counter attacks. Protect my firebase RBT/Archers with chariots and DPs. Concentrait fire. Dispel Treesinging it's a mistake to let it go. what ever you do keep them to your front. Most of the WE units will suffer vs ASF.
There are a number of thing that High Elves players have use that gave me trouble. I played a mixed WE army but it primarily was focused on Close Combat so I advanced aggresively.
1. Magic Missil spam. Lore of Fire. Concentrait on Wild Riders and Dryads 1st. A single d6 fireball really hurts these units. A 2d6 Fireball cast on a Treeman will probably do 2 wounds (flamming are doubled) but you'll need 6's to wound so target them last. If you have seer LIfe can be good (Master of Wood, Howler ect)
2. Cover your flanks(duh). Use terrain/units/board edge to prevent a 2 on 1s. Beware a Treekin(T5) and Dryad team up. Even to the front. They will have numbers and cause fear so auto-break could happen.
3. Protect your characters from Treemen. (Arch Mages ect) I would send mine right at an archmage. He can't be challanged and will kill alot of characters. If he loses he is stubborn on an 8 (with a bsb around thats a 96% to stay forever) so what. Get your mages out of there if posible. But don't go in a forrest . (Double Alters are good at killing characters as well)
4. Know what the Magic items do. Some of the best are:
Annoyence Of Nettlings-6's to hit in a challange(with a ward save almost no wounds will be scored)
Hail of Doom-3d6 st4 BS6 (2+ to hit) shots. You'll just have to eat this in most cases.
Wand of the Wych elm-reroll all dispels (great against bounds/anything)
C-Staff-spam treesinging
Amber Pendant-you go last no matter what
Bow of Loren+Arcane Bodkins-4/5 str3 no AS BS6 shots
Against Woodies I would sit back and project force and set up favorable combats/counter attacks. Protect my firebase RBT/Archers with chariots and DPs. Concentrait fire. Dispel Treesinging it's a mistake to let it go. what ever you do keep them to your front. Most of the WE units will suffer vs ASF.
Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Any thoughts/advice against them in lower point games? I will be playing 1000pts. against them in an escalation league sometime in the next couple weeks.
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
A block white lions with amulet of light might help you. Combine that with 2 bolters and some shadow warriors. Also, I think Lothern Seaguard can have a role here. Wood Elves dont like static combat resolution. Use Dragon Princes with ellyrion banner as a finishing touch
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Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
Low points games are dominated by shooting/magic. Lion Guard will be a good choice because of there 3+ vs shooting and Woodsmen ability.
Items to think about are:
Reaver Bow
Ring Of Fury
Amulet of light
RBT's, DP's and T-Chariots are good choices as well. Magic D(caddy) will be low so you should be able to dominate that phase if you want.
Items to think about are:
Reaver Bow
Ring Of Fury
Amulet of light
RBT's, DP's and T-Chariots are good choices as well. Magic D(caddy) will be low so you should be able to dominate that phase if you want.
Re: Enemy of the Month: Wood Elves
I play wood elves A LOT (both my best mate and g/f play them) and I have learnt three simple words that rape pretty much everything they have that ain't a wardancer:
Repeater
Bolt
Thrower
Repeater
Bolt
Thrower