High elf spearmens.

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Wicksi
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High elf spearmens.

#1 Post by Wicksi »

Hi all I've been thinking alot lately (for a change).

And I have acually found out that spearmens might be one of the best units to field as a high elf player for some reason I will mention now :P.

1. They are cheap 9pts per modell.
2. ASF with 3attacks is rather nice if you have them 7*3 for example you get to dish out 21attacks before your oponent strikes you, so most likely you will kill some of them wich means you get less attacks on you.
3. They are quite cool when many hehe.
4. they are quite mobile for being a block with there M5 on elves.
5. they can adjust to what they need the most rank bonus or attacks depending on what your meeting (chaos knights you might not need those extra attacks and instead line them up for rank bonus)


So my thoughts are; they can deal effectivly against most units I'd say all elves should fear them in close combat and then I really mean ALL I wouldnt dare to charge a unit of High elf spearmens with any of my units except PG's or DP's.
They are good against everyone with a T3 basicly and struggle a little against T4 like Orcs. The only time I find them almost worthless is when you meet something with 4+ T and high saves like knights or dwarfs or saurus or something like that.

So sure they cant deal with everything somethings will eventually crush them totally like chaos knights or some elite dwarfs, you might be able to hold them for a round though and come up with something that deals harder damage (like swordmasters) wich means the spearmens is quite nice as an anvil unit. And since they are quite cheap it doesnt rely mather if they die its not like you have lost half of your army. (I'm thinking of trying to field 3x 21 units of spearmens and try it myself just have to paint them ;) ) so any of you guys also think spearmens might be one of the best high elves units availible ? (note that I'm quite new to high elves and havent played more then maybe 5games with them) these are my thought anyway feel free to share yours (y)
dabber
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#2 Post by dabber »

Spearelves. ELVES dangit!

Wicksi wrote:And I have acually found out that spearmens might be one of the best units to field as a high elf player for some reason I will mention now
Try actually using them. They don't work so good.
Wicksi wrote:2. ASF with 3attacks is rather nice if you have them 7*3 for example you get to dish out 21attacks before your oponent strikes you, so most likely you will kill some of them wich means you get less attacks on you.
Do the math. Your odds of more than one kill are tiny. Their purpose in the HE army is rank bonus, nothing more. Which Phoenix Guard are much better at providing. If you want to hurt something, a single rank of Swordmasters is more effective than 3 ranks of spears.
Wicksi wrote:So my thoughts are; they can deal effectivly against most units
Where do you get that idea? They aren't bad against low quality blocks of infantry, true. How often are such units both breakable and important to kill? Very rarely.
Fwum
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#3 Post by Fwum »

I like spearelves, even though they might not be our best choice in all situation. I find them gold when battling armies with t3 as Skaven or the Empire, as they often dish out a couple of wounds. But there is no denying that they are situational, but then again, it is often worth it to have some big blocks of combat resolution against most enemies. They also perform a lot better with a noble, and as long you make them fight the right enemy and don't assume asf will save them if charged, they are a valid choice for me.

And they do look good in numbers... 8)
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#4 Post by WarpPhoenix »

for 15 spears you can get 7 swords for 30 points cheaper, hit them agaisnt eachother and swords will win a lot of time. Saying that I can clearly see, as well as other people, that its not a fair assessment because they are two different units completely that solve different problems. But at the current state of the game a block units of infantry (of which you'll probably have a banner invested) is supposed to do nothing but kill the enemy, and in the case of low level infantry like goblins and such they're meant to get hit and go somewhere else, capture objectives or have special abilities.

Spears are a nice novelty, they are fun to use now and then and will probably beat opponents like bloodletters who have no support, they're also nice to try and hit a toughness 6 thing with to try put a wound down the line because a swordmaster only has a slightly better chance to do such a thing, perhaps if we had a flaming attacks banner for spearmen only id take them, would fill a niche that we would like to see, magical and flamming spears would be something id definately pay the points for. (But id much prefer it on a unit of sea guard)
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GobbladasSquig
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#5 Post by GobbladasSquig »

Actually, 15 spears versus 7 swordmasters depends totally on who gets to strike first in the first round. That roll pretty much determines who will get to strike first in every subsequent round.

Spears are pretty cool as a home base unit, but I don't think they belong in the first line melee. They are too vulnerable to flank charges and bad luck in mirror combats (against empire swordsmen, for example).
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#6 Post by WarpPhoenix »

Not really, the spears could strike first and still lose pretty easily. On average the spears could drop 3, swords could probably drop 5, those 2 ranks go into it and its a draw, and thats with them going first. On pure averages (taboowords!) spears will draw if they win that roll, and if they lose... well then you can see what would happen ;o
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Fwum
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#7 Post by Fwum »

Don't forget outnumber. But a quick mathhammer shows the spears (if first) make an avarage of 2.5 wounds, and if they roll well and kill 3 swordmasters the remaining five make 4.4 wound back, and if they only kill 4 the spearelves win by one. So even with outnumbering a draw or lose is quite certain.
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#8 Post by Lord Anathir »

ok, I like what spears can do. To be honest I upgrade them to lothern seaguard (a full unit of 20) and in most games, baring the most extreme power lists the do okay. They never make it my power armies not because they are bad or not worth it, but mostly because after I take the important expensive stuff like dragon/bsb/rbt/dragon princes the only core I can squeez in are archers.

Most people use spears the wrong way. They throw them out as a combat unit to fight 1v1 vs another combat unit. I dont think thats their best use. I keep mine to hide mages or a vulnerable bsb, behind the main elite infantry units who do the brunt of the fighting. If I need an extra punch, the lsg/spears can clip to provide numbers/ranks, or take a turn longer to flank and negate your opponent's ranks as wel. In addition they provide decent flanking protection for your own units, as they are reasonable capable against your standard unit of knights or at holding up a some monsters. Against stegadons and other breakable monsters, your spears are the best chance you have of breaking it or tying it up with combat resolution.

Alot of people use spears to hold a charge and them plan on flanking with elite infantry or whatever. This is NOT how to use them. They are not empire blocks with detachments. let the elite infantry take the charge. Comparing them to swordmasters to see how much they kill against t4 guys or whatever is just silly. Thats not to say ASF with 3 ranks is wasted, its instrumental to keeping mages safe from fellbats/wolves/fast cav/whatever. Also there is the odd target where spears do well in sheer kills vs kills, like blocks of zombies, skinks, swarms, etc. Weak stuff, yes, but you dont want stuff like white lions getting tied down by 20 poison attack swarms. Sometimes I stick a noble and a bsb hero, and with their great weapon attacks + ranks and the odd kill from the spears they become a decent unit that can fight almost as well as the lions and swordmasters beside them.

Spears also work aginst ogre sized units like minotaurs, kroxigors, bulls, ironguts, pleasureseekers.

I upgraded them to lothern seaguard because the sheer bulk of a 20 model unit means they can deploy in 10x2 and absorb some wounds before their firepower is diminished. In a firefight against armies like dark elves this can be very useful. Also the full unit is great for killing warmachines on hills or unarmored large targets like giants or getting the odd wound on a hydra without having to deploy in a wide formation.

Finally, consider the meatshield option they provide, especially against a gunline. 20 spears in a single rank (with a bsb that I give world dragon) is the best protection for elite infantry we can have. and even 5-10 of them can go into a warmachine crew and grind it down and tie it up. Against armis like tomb kings blocks of spears park over scorpion/swarm counters and will beat them, and against beastmen I can deploy a unit of spears 20 wide on the table edge I dont want beast herds to come up on.

So in the end, I think spears/big lsg units have their uses, but much more subtle then throwing them at x combat unit and hoping they win. I dont even have them fight clanrats/empire swords unless I must. You have to know which fights they can win and which they cant and act accordingly. Dont compare them to swordmasters to see which generate the most kills....
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Musashi
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#9 Post by Musashi »

As with all things, be selective on what impales itself on their spearhead. If it's too tough, the spearhead gets blunted and worn down, making little impact on your opposing number.
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#10 Post by geoguswrek »

LA is pretty much spot on about the uses of spears.
Don't try to throw them into big combat units, it doesn't work, but they can do some jobs pretty well at not too expensive a cost.
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GobbladasSquig
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#11 Post by GobbladasSquig »

So, Musashi, what do you like to impale on your spearhead?
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#12 Post by Prince_Asuryan »

I don't have much to add in terms of numbers and statistics, but I have a fair opinion of Spears.

On their own, they are and 'average-at-best' infantry unit. They can fight, and beat, most infantry units that cost less than them, as long as they have the standard +5 combat res.

However, running them with a character makes them highly effective in my experience, and is well worth trying. I personally run two units of 21, one with a BSB and one alone to hold a flank for as long as it can, or support the rest of the army.
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#13 Post by Aethyr »

Do you think that spearelves are better than archers vs O&G, especially if they go orc heavy and lots of bodies? My reason being, I dont feel that strong shooting is ideal vs such an army, and having a couple of loose anvils (even strong if u cast courage of Aenarion) would be good while your hammers deal with flanks etc.

Ive tried a few games heavy shooting and it just doesn't seem to work for me, sorry to derail, but it had to do with Spears :P
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#14 Post by dabber »

Aethyr wrote:Do you think that spearelves are better than archers vs O&G, especially if they go orc heavy and lots of bodies? My reason being, I dont feel that strong shooting is ideal vs such an army, and having a couple of loose anvils (even strong if u cast courage of Aenarion) would be good while your hammers deal with flanks etc.
Archers kill off the greenskin fast cavalry, and plink at stuff link squigs and war machines. Spears won't be terrible in combat against O&G, but, as always, there isn't a strong reason to use them that way. Save the points on core and buy better elite units, which will simply win combats against O&G.

Field two spear blocks to make them game friendlier, so the greenskins have a better chance against you.
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#15 Post by grantmepower »

I usually split my core between spears and archers. 20 spears are a decent unit either for a mage bunker or for static combat resolution. One I've been experimenting with is 20 spears with the warbanner and a BSB. That gives 6 combat resolution, 7 if they outnumber. Plus a few spear attacks and the BSB's great weapon it becomes a formidable unit.
But yes, in my powergaming lists the spears have no place. 2 units of 10 archers it is.
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#16 Post by Musashi »

Something that puts up a token fight, just to keep it interesting.
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#17 Post by Delaqure »

I am actually a huge proponant of spearmen. I always play with at least one unit of them. They have been game changers in more battles than I can count. The trick in using them is in the matchup. Never pit them alone. It is easier said than done but I have had great success with it. I always have a unit of elit infantry with them or close by to assist in combat. I have found the best success with them by putting them on a flank. They have more opportunities to get to an opponants flank once they get into combat with the rest of your stuff and they work well against most enemies flankers.
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Re: High elf spearmens.

#18 Post by Citizen Militia »

9 points for spearelves isnt as cheap as it sounds. When it boils down to it were still only toughness 3 and some t4 armies can put men on the ground for the same cost, we just can't match armies like that with our basic troops. I like spearmen because it looks cool to see ranked up infantry in shiny armour but think that theyre more of a novelty (or at least non comp) unit.

My main gripe is with the rules for ALL spearmen not just HE; In real life spears were naturally a good defence against cavalry using the momentum of the charging unit to effectively increase the 'strength' of the hit. So why not say that when spears are charged from 10 or more inches they get +1 strength for the 1st turn of combat.
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