Is cavalry necessary against Dwarfs?

[Sinsigel]

Against dwarfs who are very tough and boast high armour saves even if they're core(dwarf warriors have armour save of 3+ in close combat), I began to wonder whether thre is any serious need for cavalry. Dragon Princes hit hard, but only for a turn. BSB with Battle Banner might help, but considering that a good dwarf unit in 2K game would have more than 4 ranks, aided by BSB(wether in the unit or near the unit) and general's leadership,(and possibly, the rune banner that doubles the unit strength) I think there's still risk of not breaking them in a turn. More sadly, a dwarf general would concentrate his firepower against such unit(DPs+Battle Banner), and the chances are high that they might not even reach the dwarf infantry. Silver Helms? I don't want to think about them. Considering this, my opinion is that it would be more efficient to invest points on RBTs, elite infantry and magic. But again, this is only a newbie's thought who haven't had much experience with fighting dwarfs. Any comments are welcome.

[WarpPhoenix]

You need cavalry to get across the field and hit those tunders/quarrelers/warmachines. You REALLY cant depend on light cavalry and eagles to do that considering the saves and toughness of dwarves. Your cavalry simply changes its purpose. From being a rank breaker you're now a ranged hunter, and your really fast stuff becomes annoyance.

[SpellArcher]

A combined charge of DP's and Lion Chariot/character in chariot will break most Dwarf units. You deploy them last to avoid the worst of the shooting. Might not work against a pure gunline.

It comes back to huge CR being needed to break Dwarfs. The problem with the infantry approach is that it gives him too long to shoot at you IMHO.

[SpellArcher]

DP's plus Lion Chariot should take out most Dwarf units. Deploy them last to avoid the worst of the shooting. Might not work against a pure gunline.

Shadow Warriors are useful against the War Machines.

Edit: thought I'd lost the last post. Hmm...

[Musashi]

The short answer is yes.

The long answer includes such elements as the Dwarf player having multiple threats to deal with in possibly the second turn, and having AS 2+.

[Alathenar]

Depends on what type on dwarfs you verse. As SpellArcher said, against a pure gunline, i find DP's and chariots useless. When i came across a gunline with HE's, i just sat back and used my 3 R.B.T's to wipe out his war machines and actually made him come to me. We didn't see combat till turn 6. It really pissed him off. When u do take out his machines/shooting, thats when ur in control, you can combine multiple charges with chariots and DP's, preferably flanks if possible.

[dabber]

If you are going to advance, you need several cavalry units to charge his shooters. If you aren't going to advance, cavalry are a liability.

[Lord Anathir]

Depends on what type on dwarfs you verse. As SpellArcher said, against a pure gunline, i find DP's and chariots useless. When i came across a gunline with HE's, i just sat back and used my 3 R.B.T's to wipe out his war machines and actually made him come to me. We didn't see combat till turn 6. It really pissed him off. When u do take out his machines/shooting, thats when ur in control, you can combine multiple charges with chariots and DP's, preferably flanks if possible.

I have no idea how 3 rbt can survive stone throwers, cannons, his bolt throwers and miners+anvil combo that all gunliens have. I also dont know how 3 rbt can kill dwarf machines.. seeing as how averages get you 1.5 crew killed from 3 rbt, thats no including the engineers, entrenchments and deployments in forests.

[Alathenar]

Well mostly the dwarf players i verse arnt douche's and don't go real cheesy(mostly). (except 1 game where he had 2 organ guns, 2 bolt throwers, cannon and some thunderers, i was Lizards and still got dominated, can't think how bad for HE it wud've been.) Ive never versed the anvil so dont no what that does. But he did deploy pretty bad.

[eudaimon]

Take it with a pinch of salt as I play in the Aus scene where people don't take maxed lists, but I have won my last 4 games against dwarfs (good players too) with no cav.

Mostly I am dealing with 3 warmachines, 2 bolties and 1 organ gun. Also a gyro. Plus generally 2 units of quarrellers. I am running Star Dragon, 12 archers, 2 RBTs, 2x Level 2s, big block of WLs, 1 of each chariot, an eagle and some spears at the moment. What I do is rush my SMs and eagle forwards. I fully expect them to die. I also bring forward the WLs, chariots and dragon behind whatever cover I can get (being careful to angle the dragon away from any character with a potential Rune of Challenge). Lore of metal with Commandment of Brass is a big help, as are most magic missles to help whittle away the crews. I generally don't have to worry too much about taking a beating from the warmachines with a combo of archers shooting (I run 12), 2 bolties and Commandment of Brass, with some magic missles thrown in for good measure, and if I do, it is usually the SMs that die (2 units of 7). That is 210 throwaway points that is taking a pounding whilst your real damage delivery system, the chariots into the quarrellers, and your WLs and Dragon into his big block units.

If figure it is a good trade to throwaway 210 of SMs, maybe the spears and even the eagle, if I can get my big damage dealers in to take his big point scoring units out.

Oh, never charge an entrenched war machine with a chariot. I forgot which of his machines was entrenched and sent my Tiranoc Chariot at it. Killed by my own impact hits (defended obstacles being difficult terrain). Ouch!

[Musashi]

Too bad Elves are adverse to digging - there have been several times when I thought entrenching the RBTs might not be a bad thing.

[SpellArcher]

Yeah that doesn't sound like enough Dwarf shooting to stop a Star Dragon.

[saintjon]

I am wondering how my seaguard will do vs. dwarves. I guess I have to hope he sticks some of his shooters on a hill and try to advance all blocked up 5x4 and dump arrows on them. I would think that shadow warriors might struggle to take on a dwarven machine crew due to gunner's pride, especially if they have an engineer or master engineer with them.

that doesn't seem cool to me that a dwarf would use entrenchments without having some sort of model, or marker or something to represent them. That's a cool little piece of terrain right there I would be happy to have if I were running dwarves.

[Dragon.Prince63]

I used to play my older brother a bit and he had Dwarves and you've got to watch out if he has an anvil and a block or two of miners, because one of the special powers is to make one unit (on a 2+) make a charge or march move or D3 units (on a 4+) do the same thing. A bit off topic but anyway.

[SpellArcher]

Shadow Warriors should beat a Dwarf crew without an Engineer, though it may take time.

With one it's tighter.

[Minsc]

Shadow Warriors should beat a Dwarf crew without an Engineer, though it may take time.

A shame most dwarf crews have a engineer.

And yes, due to their Ld9 stubborn you more or less have to kill them, and Shadow warriors don't really excel at killing T4 targets.

I'm bored, so:

Without a Engineer;
5 Shadow Warriors vs 3 Dwarf crews = 4,44 hits, 1,48 wounds, 1,23 after saves. He retaliates with 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0,5 wounds.
Dwarves stand on Ld9.
Second turn: 5 attacks, 3,33 hits, 1,11 wounds, 0,92 after saves. 1 attack back, 0,5 hits, 0,25 wounds. (1 Shadow warrior dies now.)
Dwarves stand on Ld9
Third turn: 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 0,88 wounds, 0,74 after saves. Crew dead after combat turn 3. 1 Shadow Warrior dead.

With a Engineer;
5 Shadow Warriors vs 4 Dwarves = 4,44 hits, 1,48 wounds, 1,23 after saves. 3 attacks back, 1,5 hits, 0,75 wounds. Both sides take a casualty, dwarves loose by 1 and stand on Ld9.
Second turn: 4 attacks, 2,66 hits, 0,88 wounds, 0,74 after saves. 2 Attacks back, 1 hit, 0,5 wounds. Both sides take a casualty.
Dwarves stand on Ld9.
Third turn. 3 attacks, 2 hits, 0,55 wounds after saves. 1 attack, back, 0,5 hits, 0,25 wounds. At this point, the dwarves has taken 2,77 wounds (3 dead) and the elves 1,5. If 2 Shadow Warriors are dead by this point, the last dwarf will live on for 2 more turns, making it turn 5 before the crew's dead. 2-3 Shadow warriors dead.

[SpellArcher]

War Machine silenced on contact!

[saintjon]

Well true that but that's only one machine. Against empire crews you could have rolled over 2 or 3 of them in that time. Dwarf crews are pretty nasty.

[SpellArcher]

They certainly are and with lucky dice could even beat Shadow Warriors.

Point is though, SW's tick the box called 'Deals with War Machines'.

[saintjon]

Well after the horrific battle I took part in last night I would have to say, "No, cavalry is not necessary against dwarves". However, if you don't have any it certainly helps when the organ gun blows itself up in turn 2. If you build for some shooting with magic bows and some seaguard you can advance very slowly and fire away (hopefully rolling better than I did), punishings hill lurkers. Even if you play someone like my friend who dislikes putting machines on hills (which would have been much much better for me at the end of the day) if you have enough units you can dink up his lines of sight and whatnot. As much as I hate magic I think Teclis smells like a rose against dwarves, Shadow or Metal getting tossed around with IF is going to cost them pretty big.