Talisman of Loec

[pk-ng]

If I have a Noble with White Sword and Talisman of Loec and say I vs a General with AS 2+ no WS, no Regen but can reroll AS
I use the Talisman
I score 3 hits
I wound all three but i didn't get any 6s (no KBs)

Question 1: Can i re-roll the "wounds" to get KB?
Question 2: Since the white sword is +2 to str therefore my noble gets 6 str. their armor save will be 5+ does he get to re-roll "failed" AS. When ToL says that u need to re-roll AS.

[Prince_Asuryan]

1. Yes, you may re-roll the wounds. You can also leave any initial 6's when you re-roll (imo).

2. He re-rolls any saves he fails from the first attempt to save, second result stands. He also re-rolls any saves he makes from the first attempt to save, second results stands.

For future reference:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27152

[Aderyn]

"bearer MAY re-roll rolls to hits and to wound. Successfull enemy AS must be re-rolled. at the end of the phase bearer takes an unsaveable wound"

I'd say this indicated you can reroll if you WANT to. So yes - you can reroll for killingblow. The only thing that HAS to be rerolled is your enemys successfull Armor Save.

I have another question about this item actually... What if you use this item with Golden Crown of Atrazar in the purpose of keeping all your points. It sucks to wound your own character to kill one other dude. =) The crown discards the first wound even if killing blow.

Does this item remove the unsaveable wound from talisman of loec?

[Angel]

I would say that it does, unless the enemy survives and wounds you first in which case the crown would discard the wound suffered from the enemy's attacks.

[SpellArcher]

Someone made the point before that it would be better to take the first wound from your profile as then you retain the Crown's KB immunity!

[NoOoDLe]

Someone made the point before that it would be better to take the first wound from your profile as then you retain the Crown's KB immunity!

Although the description of the crown says it will save the first wound suffered. Not the one you would like it to save.

And the Talisman says it doesn't allow saves of ANY kind so.. Isn't the crown a save without a to-save roll?

[SpellArcher]

Absolutely, I was wishing aloud!

[Aderyn]

if the enemy survived you failed, however to save that wound on a 2 wounds hero costing ~150p saves you 75points. I'd say it's well worth it. =)

[Rogmund]

re roll ALL saves.. not just AS

[Citizen Militia]

Ok I've always wondered about this - fairest logic to settle the argument is to say since all successfull AS rolls must be re-rolled (thanks to ToL) and any fails must be rerolled (thanks to whatever magic armour) therefore ALL wounds are re-rolled and therefore it is the same as rolling however many fresh dice once - IE the powers cancel each other

[pk-ng]

but u can't re-roll a re-roll tho!

[Aderyn]

as i wrote before - you "MAY" reroll to hit/wound. This indicates it's up to you if you wanna reroll them. I.E for Killingblow.

Ofcourse if the enemy has something that makes him reroll failed armorsaves - he simply gets a reroll (and yes it would be the same as rolling a fresh dice.).

Because...

If he fails, he rerolls (ToL doesn't kick in, but instead his armor does)
If he succeds his save ToL kicks in and forces him to reroll.

no rerolls on second roll.

[NoOoDLe]

Talisman Of Loec specifically states that all successful saves must be re-rolled, IIRC.

And I think that when one item requires you to re-roll any failed saves and another requires you to re-roll any successes I think the most logical solution would be to not allow any rerolls at all. I think I read this in a GW FAQ or Rulebook once too but I'm not entirely sure.

[Citizen Militia]

I wasn't saying that you would be re-rolling a re-roll... How about I explain it through way of a conversation between 2 players...

HE player: I scored 7 wounds (lol he was using ToL with +3 A for illustrative purposes) do you get an armour save?

Opponent: Why yes its a 3+ re-rollable [rolls dice]
[sorts out fails and successes into 2 piles]

The HE player gets to make him re-roll the successfull saves and the opponent gets to re-roll the failed saves. Hence his opponent picks up and re-rolls ALL 7 dice This is the first and only re-roll of the armour saving throw but all 7 are re-rolled

Both players: Jeez was there actually any point in rolling the first 7? Maybe we should make an agreement that these 2 magic items CANCEL the next time we play each other?

[Musashi]

And you still haven't gotten to the part where the mount or neighbouring models have a go at hitting the target that is successfully hit.

[pk-ng]

another question abt ToL.

I have noble ToL
I use ToL
in that Combat my noble suffers 1 wound from enemy player
noble is obviously dead
so question
does the enemy get 2 points for combat res or just the 1 point for combat res.

essentially the question is "Does the enemey get combat res from ToL?"

[grantmepower]

No, as the wound happens at the end of the combat phase, after combat resolution is counted.
~Grant

[pk-ng]

actually i just read the faq and sorry to say u'r wrong.

Q: If a friendly model inflicts wounds to itself or other friendly models during a close combar do the wounds count towards combat resolution? If yes, which side gets to claim them?

A: They do count, and they count towards the enemy's total of wounds caused, just like woundes actually caused by the enemy!

[Prince_Asuryan]

Actually, he's right. The talisman wound occurs AFTER the close combat phase - so after combat resolution has been calculated.

[geoguswrek]

It is even better than that, hypothetically, you charge with a single character into something, use the talisman, but take a wound in combat. You win combat by one (because the talisman hasn't wounded you yet), the enemy breaks, you choose to pursue and run him down. THEN the talisman kills you....

Also, as to rerolling armour saves (say i use the talisman against a guy with helm of fortune), essentially what happens is you roll the saves, pick them all up and roll again, second results stand no matter what.

[Stormie]

It's absolutely golden when you get to use Loec re-rolls twice in one phase. I had a game where my DPs with Lance/Loec BSB smashed into a damaged Steam Tank, destroyed it and overran into the flank of a massive unit of Knights with BSB and Arch Lector that my brave Eagle had charged. 6 dead Knights later... he rolled insane courage, and went on to beat me. So much for tactics eh!

[Musashi]

While I'd have no problems with a Kamikaze Hero, I'd be a lot less sanguine when it's on a Prince - that's usually a lot of points and combat power to lose.

[Wicksi]

I've found the best use of talisman of loec on a blademaster acually, its pretty amazing since you loose like 40points or so (dont got my book with me at the moment) when he dies but you can still kill a hero with him pretty easily Usually use this against a DE player it works wonders

[Siegfried VII]

Are you guys sure that if I have a lone character using the talisman, suffering one wound and breaking in combat his opponent, he gets to make a pursue movement?

[Musashi]

Anything that breaks and runs can get pursued.

[geoguswrek]

Pursuit happens in the combat phase, the talisman steals a wound at the end of the combt phase.

Wicksi: I use the talisman blademaster, at the GT he claimed the head of an archlector(!!!), 2 wounds off a tyrant, and some hammerers, in the others he got killed by shooting and was sacrificed infront of a high elf bsb to keep the unit able to fight.

[pk-ng]

ooooo ok soz for that. just after reading the FAQ just seems he's wrong.

[prelude_to_war]

Does the ToL have the same effect against regeneration?

[Musashi]

Yes - any successful save.