Ulthuan

To continue our evil armies theme, this month we will be discussing the mindless shambling hordes of the undead. Again this is an army I have little knowledge of so I'll throw this one straight out to the general public

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What are people's experiences of the spell that creates Spirit Hosts? I guess most VC players eschew it in favour of invoc and danse but it has caused me trouble. Not so much from the Hosts, just the damage it did.

Another thing: Black Coach(es) eating pool dice. Not good when you've taken the Banner of Sorcery...

Yet another thing: what do people think is the minimum magic defence required to survive against a VC phase of, say, 9PD + Book?

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I think an important question is whether there is a decent way to pick off a wight king with that regen standard in a huge block of grave guard with a nasty vamp like Vlad in the front row. Vampires should always be expected to have pretty good magic def. I feel, magic is a natural possible threat to vamps and it seems like they can load up on dice for either phase with aplomb. Most of us have eagles in our lists could two of them in tandem charge in and have a hope of taking down a Wight King before they get autobroken (or killed). At least they are immune to killing blow I guess and march-blocking isn't much use against troops that can't march anyhow without magic. I feel if the banner can be taken down early the unit is vulnerable to shooting and you have a way better chance of killing the stupid vampire. I guess if you are magic reliant vs a black coach it is probably a priority target, it's only going to get worse to deal with as the game goes on.

Coaches are very hard to kill but I guess we have to try.

Ideally something like Ring of Corin to take out the banner by surprise but I've no idea how feasible it is in practice.

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I once got off a Vaul's Unmaking due to a miscast on the VC's part, turned the carstein ring into a gem pop. he was pretty nervous but I wasn't able to capitalize on Vlad's sudden relative weakness. Before that he dispelled Vaul's with impunity, never tried the ring of corin though.

It's the surprise factor that I like. Scrolls could be a problem.

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I have only played one VC player with my HEs since i started playing them and i find it a real dissapointment because i believe them to not be much of a challenge.

But in my vvery short experiance against them I would say that flames of the phoenix is the biggest psycological tool we have, by making large amounts of their untis dissapear we can force them to invocate them back, when we couldnt care less they they brought the unit of skeletons back that will lose to swordmasters unless they're at full strength.

Book of arkan (sp?) can be a nasty surprise, you might want to keep some dice back when his knights come within 22 inches of you as it means they can get to you after you've used all those dispell dice.

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One die should do it with our +1. 1-in-6 chance of fluffing but that's life. Hopefully it runs out of juice mid-game.

Don't think Eagles have the power to kil a Wight King. VC can march without magic if there is a Vamp close by.

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Oh my bad, I got some misleading info from a VC player then. so if eagles won't take down that wight king could swordmaster without a champion do it? 6 attacks coming his way at str 5 seems like a pretty decent chance to me.

The problem is the Drakenhof King has T5 (eat our hearts out!), 3+ Save and 3 Wounds. So with 6 SM, 4 hits maybe, 2 wounds, he probably saves one. That means three combat rounds to kill him and unfortunately there are attacks coming back...

Not to mention that he'll be magically healed in all likelihood.

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Nice thread! It just so happens that two of my main opponents are 2 VC players and I usually average 1-2 games a week against them. For years I battled the counts with wood elves, chaos and beasts, and now more recently with high elves.

For specific units, my opponents bring 12+ pd, usually with 1-2 bound items, usually a fighty lycni lord with 4-8 or 5-10 attacks, max rares that usually include varg + coach or varg + blood knights. A large grave guard unit, sometimes with david hasslehoff banner, is always present. Black knights are also common. The rest varies to include 20 strong zombies for table quads, etc.

Anyway, here are some observations:

First of all I have to say that high elves really must rely on their magic for many of their answers concerning vamps. This then will be my focus.

Vamps almost always have at least 6 dispel (plus periapt), sometimes 7. I have found lore of metal works best, supported by 1-2 additional casters toting combinations of metal/high magic/light. Burning gaze in particular is awesome against VC rares and knights, especially when you can cast it twice from two casters in conjunction with RoF. This opens up potential for the big one, spirit of the forge. As most vamp players ive met dont wanna "waste" pts on scrolls, SotF will cook something important every time once youve made him burn a few dispel.
For necessary magic defense I usually bring 6 dd and 1-2 scrolls with HEs, although i regularly fight VCs without ANY additional dispel when using WEs. IMO one of the weaknesses counts have is spell range, which has been decreased from their last incarnation. Isolate a unit through march interdiction or hatred pulling, frenzy etc. and suddenly it cant march, heal, magic move or otherwise be of much use.
Lastly, keep an eye on who is casting what spell and what range each casters spells have. Unless the VC player is very careful, you will often find he has used the wrong dice to cast with, leaving a portion of his casting dice essentially worthless as he has no target in range or the only target available is irrelevant to your current situation.


Regarding winds of undeath, IME it really doesnt have that big of an impact against HEs, usually generating 3-5 wounds on average (1-2 bases), although these can be nasty little tarpits if your not ready for them. However, against woodies or other armies with many units or very expensive models like chaos knights, it really becomes a killer. In larger point games of 4000+ it is completely bent. I say let them chance the miscast. Summoning range is only 12" from the caster max so protect potential raise areas.

As for David Hasslehof, his unit does become a beast with that stupid banner. With WEs I usually run 6-7 units/elements with killing blow which really limits Daves lifespan. Unfortunately, KB is scarce in the HE book. Due to the lack of KB and the proliferation of regen in the latest books, I now use Caradryan. Caradryan, in conjunction with the lore of metal can go a long way to prevent Dave from showing up in your opponents lists. Spam RoBI followed by a couple law of gold spells on the unit. Ring of corin would obviously be very useful here too, if you can trick him into using all remaining dispel dice.

Anyway out of time, will try to post more later. Hope some of this chatter was useful, and if not please tell me so I dont waste any more time haha. Cheers.

Based on my games against VC, I also agree that magic is an important aspect. While I have used various magic set-ups, including Teclis, dual 2nd level mages does seem to work up to 2250 pts (standard seer & silver mage set-up with Banner of Sorcery).

Against VC I have settled on High Magic for my dual mage set-up. What I am hoping to get is dual Flames of the Phoenix and/or Fury of Khaine. With the Seerstaff I know I will at least have one of each.

During the game I have found that spell casting tends to be based on the BoS result:
- One PD: Fury (2 PD), Drain (2), Drain (3);
- Two PD: Flames (3), Drain (2) or other useful 2PD if Flames got through, Drain (3)
- Three PD: Flames (3), Flames (3) if I have it otherwise its similar to +2PD.

I have found that using the above sequence tends to drain my VC opponents of dispel scrolls quickly. Typically, by turn 3 I have a good chance of successfully casting Flames of the Phoenix and/or Drain Magic.

If I am lucky and I get two Flames off in one magic phase. In these situations, I am not all that concerned about the lack of Drain Magic as most VC players are under tremendous pressure to save PD in order to dispel the Flames spells. In fact, I have had opponents save as many as 6 PD to deal with this.

Spears and Swordies are quite good against VC. Watch out for their characters though as they can generate enough CR to compensate for all the wounds we cause.
I completely ignore Drakenhoff units because I deploy my blocks off the side a bit (in a position to flank enemy infantry) so GG aren't that much a problem for me.
I run 2 caddies now as I'm not much of a magic fan as far as High Elves go. Paying a premium for something that isn't guaranteed to work isn't something I want to take in my lists. Yes, Drain Magic cripples their army and I fully endorse its use, it's just not how I play anymore. Lore of Metal on David's unit is fantastic as well.
Stay away from the vampire general if he is a cc character (unless you've got Caradryan).
Use ToL on a SM champ to take out a hero vamp if you can as it's one less PD, one less DD for them.
Amulet of Light is crucial. I've put it on a Swordie detachment before but now all my lists run 14 WL, SoB and the ammy. Works great on Wraiths or on trees if I happen to draw Wood ELves that day.
Don't discount the use of RBTs against the undead, 3 of them can annihilate a bunker hiding behind the lines. White Lion Chariots make mincemeat out of Vamp heroes, think of them as cat food.
As a rule of thumb against VC, let the healing spells go through. Stop Danse as extra movement is how they win.

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Great input guys!

That's a strong phase Phoenix Legion, 12PD Vamps is no joke. Ok it's not 15+ but still. 6DD does sound good here. It's hard to generate unless we go magic-heavy but then that's what you said, more or less! I usually face 8/9 dice + Book and I only take 4 dice + scroll. Magic defence is what I'm best at in Warhammer but even so I've been struggling. I've been avoiding 2-die Drain though in favour of casting more, perhaps just going defensive and casting double Drain will see me Ok. I don't know how you pull your magic phases off Foxbat! I blanch at the though of casting spells on less than a 75% chance but hey, it works for you!

I have bad memories of Wind of Undeath (?) from one particular game. Four times he cast it, no miscasts, three failed 4-die dispel attempts from me (!). It hurts small cavalry units and artillery. Still, invo/danse spam would probably have been worse...

I'm a strong believer that a tight HE magic phase such as the 585 Archmage phase or the 300 Gem phase can be cost-effective. It's interesting how the Banner of Sorcery affects things. A 1-die phase can just go phut whilst a 3-die phase can overload defences.

I guess the Amulet of Light makes sense on Lions as Wraiths often lurk around woods. Dead right about the RBT. Remember the gunline list Ant Spiers posted a while back? If you can wipe units out they don't get up again. How about a Noble with Loec and White Sword as a solution to the Drakenhof dilemma?

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Hmm. Ok. Where do we start. They've got such a lot of nifty tricks. Here are some experiences/pieces of advice.

-Swordmasters and Spears are a must if you have any intention of grinding down those blocks. Any other infantry we field just does not have the attacks needed to crumble them fast enough.
-The Corpse Cart... If you're playing mages, take it out fast (even bows help here). -2 to cast is not fun. If you don't play magic heavy... Don't bother. The ASF it gives will only allow vamps to go ahead of our troops.
-On the topic of magic. Double Drain Magic is your friend. A very nice trick I've found is a L4 and L2 with the Book of Hoeth. The L2 casts Drain on 3 dice. He'll possibly let it off since it's damaging your magic phase as well. If he does. Good. Drop Flames with the L4. The Book will probably let you get it off. If he stops the first Drain, cast it with the L4, then Flames. The combination of Drain plus a PL14 RIP spell shuts down magic attack nicely.
-Scouting Vampire Lords. A very nasty thing if you don't see it coming. Casting Wind of Undeath and summoning Spirit Hosts in your back field is mean. Deploy a chariot facing across your deployment zone so he has nowhere to hide.
-Shooting. If you do shoot at something, shoot to kill. Otherwise he'll heal it back up.
-One trick pony available to us. Prince or Noble with the White Sword and ToL. Use Steed of Shadows to catapult him into the vampire character of your choice. Using the Talisman, we have a better than 60% chance of killing a Vamp Lord with our prince. Of course. Our guy will die, but it may be worth it in turn 1. Crumble away dead bastards...
-Target his sub-casters. His L2 vamps will often be badly protected. T4, 2 wounds means that even a DP or Swordmaster champ will be able to pop them. Reducing their PD, march ability and LD for when crumbling comes around.

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What happened to you Ulthuan? You used to be so cool...

Thats a cool idea Elaithnir about catapulting a prince into his general. On a Barded Steed with Star Lance, Loec, GP and AoC would be the best right? Just gota hope he can outrun the unit. I've only versed VC once and he put his general on a zombie dragon and on turn 3 my R.B.T killed the general. He conceded there. But what are some nasty character builds VC can have on their Lord. Like whats there best build defence and attack wise? What constitutes this Grave Guard Deathstar i've heard about, and how to combat it?

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Hey that's even better than the guy on foot! I was focusing on getting the killing blow, but killing him outright is an option too... Plus he has higher odds of surviving. Hmm. Maybe...use it against all his characters BUT the Lord. Whittle down his phase and avoid the Lord?

As for best attack/defence. I don't own a VC book yet, but best armour is a 1+ save/4+ ward with stupidity as side effect IIRC... On attack, red fury with the Balefire spike can decimate any of our units.

EDIT: The GG Deathstar is a big block of Grave Guard, with a Wight King BSB and a Lord, carrying the Regen and the +1 to hit banner. Or something similar.

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Well i would still have a punt at his Lord with the Star, Loec, GP and AoC(or shield, DA and Helm of Fortune is better come to think of it) setup. but of course Loec would be used for his general and then he can go after the 2 Wound guys. I suppose with the GG deathstar just avoid it i guess until you can ged rid of the BSB and Lord with the catapult Lord or Vauls Unmaking, Ring of Corin them away. At least they can't get an ASF Banner .....Or....can they

EDIT: come to think of it though, the unit champ could just take the challenge on the turn you charge and there goes ur Strength 7 if u manage to stay in combat, Hmm.

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"You only get one chance to make a last impression."
"For every choice, a consequence."

That's where the guy on foot is a bit better. Smaller base, so you can maneuver so that his Champ is not in combat, then just allocate attacks on the Lord. Or snipe the champ. They can't get ASF banner, but the Corpse cart can give it to them. But it doesn't matter, since their initiative is lower across the board than ours (characters included. A Vamp Lord is initiative 7 I think.)

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they do have an item, I don't know how often it's taken, but it's basically an "I go first no matter what you've got, my ASF is better than yours buddy!" It might not fit too great with their builds but my friend used it once, it is a pretty good pick against HE.

I feel against Vamps its a matter of how fast you can take out his support units. when you kill the black coaches, varghulfs, wraiths, black knights, wolves and fell bats you can control the movement phase. In terms of magic lore I pick based on which rare units hes running. Varghulfs are the strongest and most common, and against them I'll take metal or fire on lvl4 and light on lvl2 and light on gem. Thats 2 light defaults, ring of fury, 2d6st4 then 2-4 dice left for the spirit of the forge or something else per phase into a varghulf, all of which are pretty mean and can hurt it badly. If hes got a knight heavy army and blood knights (the weakest rare choice probably), then metal is the lore I want with the lvl 4, and again light defaults on the lvl2/gem. Most VC players like to start with small unit sizes and bulk up turns 1 and 2 (which doesnt make sense to me...why dont they just pay a few more points for 20+ units and start using their magic for magic missiles, fresh units, curse of years and the other cool spells they have?) Against wraiths I'd go with fire on lvl4 and lvl2..thats fireball and fireblast on both, and leaving the gem noble for light default again.

Coaches are a pain in the ass, no decent spell against them. They're not very popular, but if they do show up I can switch to anti infantry spells...high magic on the lvl4, fire/light on lvl2/gem.

So yeah, against vamps the battle is often decided in our magic phases.

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the ASF item they have is alright, but its in the magic armor category... that means the bearer has neither of the hauberks or killing blow protection.

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Here’s how I approach my magic phase.

The chances of casting Flames with 3PD is ~43% Successful/Fail and ~7% IF/Miscast or stated another way, I have a 50% chance each magic phase of the spell going off (i.e. successful + IF). This means that when I have two Flames, there is a 25% chance that both will go off, 50% chance that one will go off, and a 25% chance that neither will go off. That’s about a 75% chance of getting at least one Flames spell off.

For a lone 4th level Archmage, his chances of casting Flames with 4PD: ~65% Successful, ~14% IF, ~15% Miscast, and 5% Fail or about 79% chance of it going off (only slightly better than the dual mage set-up). As for the chances of a miscast, both approaches are about the same at ~15%. The main difference is that if there is a miscast, worst case I lose 50% of my capacity as compared to 66% minimum. While it is true that an Archmage could throw 5PD, there is actually limited value in this as the overall successful/IF falls ~2% to ~77%while the miscast chances increase dramatically to ~23%.

The problem for the VC player when a Flames spell goes off is that he or she must immediately decide to either let it go or DD/scroll it. If they let it go, then my opponent knows that they will need to either commit PD to attempt to dispel (usually 3PD) or cast additional healing spells on the unit such that they will overcome the initial hit and the subsequent hit on my magic phase. Now, if two Flames go off in the same phase, one can see how their problems are quickly compounded. If the DD it, good, this increases the chances that one of the following Flames or Drain Magic spells will get off. If they scroll it, then my chances of Drain Magic in this phase falls, but increases the chances of Flames and Drain Magic in subsequent turns getting through.

The final benefit of the dual mage set-up is that it’s about 165 pts cheaper than the Archmage/Mage set-up. This gives me more flexibility in my troop and Character selections.

One of the many reasons I now almost always take the Golden Shield on one of my Characters.

I find it really rewarding when you look up and say, "cool 4 hits, want to re-roll to see if they stick. Ah drag, you only managed one hit." Of course if its my Prince, then he has a re-rollable AS and a 4+ Ward Save to boot.

I have to ask, being both a Vampire Counts and High Elf player: why all this focus on Flames of the Phoenix, what is its benefit? Typically if cast on a infantry unit- what's the point? It'll kill 1/3 of a Ghoul or Skeleton unit and maybe 1/6 of a Grave Guard unit. For a decent-sized unit we're talking 7 Skeletons or 3-4 Grave Guard... whoop? Okay, then say it lasts until the next magic phase and goes off again, it'll take out half the remaining Ghouls/ Skeletons/ Grave Guard (even if regenerating, which is a nice perk)... but all this emphasis on getting the spell off, when the VC player can just cast a couple of simple Invocations and undo all of the damage you've done. Speaking as a VC player (Admittedly, not a typical Helm + Hasslehoff user), if someone casts Flames on any of my undead units, my reaction is invariably to let it go, and then not to bother dispelling it. The only real worry is if there are weak characters (Vampires without armour, or Necromancers) within the unit, in which case: eject! Since remember, you are pretty much using all of your magic investment to achieve this. Remember the role of the rank and file core VC units is rarely to kill anything, but more to get in the way and allow their characters to get to your army and kill stuff (or bunker up).

I believe that magic should take on more of a support role against Vampire Counts: don't count on blatting units into submission. Focus magic missiles onto the support units: once the wolves and bats are gone, you can advance and force your enemy into a killing zone. Lore of Light is a must on one user, just for the scary Burning Gaze, targeted on things like Varghulfs, Wraiths or Knights of either flavour. What would be a simple dispel-dice-drainer against most armies becomes a must-stop! Drain Magic is of course quite helpful, but don't put too much effort into getting it off: you only start getting tangible rewards when playing against really magic-heavy lists (who are more likely to have the dispel dice to stop it anyways), against magic-light lists, where they need to use 2-3 dice per casting of IoN to get it past our magic defence in the first place, you may just be better off casting Fury of Khaine or similar onto a vulnerable unit.

i've actually had a LOT of success using dragon mages against VC.

the volume of s4 hits from the guy on top really punches through VC units and can also very easily eat up the enemy's dispel pool so your other casters can get through with their own spells.

VC's lack of shooting allows the DM to roam relatively freely and can also march block pretty well.

even the s2 flame breath can do some decent damage against the lightly armored VC core.

dont forget negating all the potential regen saves!

dm's can also flank charge pretty well. especially with flaming sword, you can kill enough on the flank so there are limited, if any, attacks back. negating flanks and getting the flank bonus can be enough to destory entire blocks of VC units.

Yeah, another vote for Dragon Mages. You can see an example of how effective they are in my tournament report in the battle report forum- Wall of Fire was surprisingly effective.

The point of the flames is to direct your attention away from something else. If you're raising that unit of zombies then go ahead, raise it, i dont care if it dies because my archers can take basic zombies in combat. But you're one dicing invocations to get them back to full strength, it might even take you 3-4 casts depending on how your luck is, or you could spend 3-4 dice and try to dispell it. Either way thats 3-4 dice that isnt going into raising the grave guard, its 3-4 dice that isnt going to be a van hels this turn.

Its all about the pressure you put out, its not about physical results. You may think that i have something better to cast, but if ive tried to cast arrow attraction twice and either failed or gotten it off then flames of the phoenix from both mages going out and ticking on two units is really going to pressure your dice. You can either forget about the unit, then hey im going to mop it up with melee and steal its banner, or you can try to keep them up, in which case I'll stick back and wait for your epic struggle against those flames of the phoenix and arrows raining down. You can outlast the magic, but can all of your untis survive all the shooting AND magic?

And about the bunkering, if you bunker a vampire in the unit then even more reason to cast it! Its gonig to hit everyone including your vampire, and if you let it tick for more than a couple turns it might just kill them, or even nastier if its a necro becuase those guys drop like flies. Either way THIS is the reason I will always cast flames of the phoenix against a vampire counts player over and over and over. (Right before a drain magic of course!)

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Agree that clearing away the light troops makes VC easier to deal with. My old Wood Elf list was really good at that but it couldn't cope with the magic. My solution with HE? More shooting as usual!

I sort of see your logic Foxbat but rolling for spells...I don't like it!

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So basically the "tactic" is used to distract the VC player from raising his key troops or casting the game-winning spells by making him focus on protecting his weak, rubbish troops... the ones that he doesn't really care about.

That really isn't going to work against any VC player with more brains than his zombies. I mean sure, go ahead, blow all those dice on doing a fair bit of damage to a basic infantry unit- but please don't expect your opponent to play ball and panic over it. Last time my Vamps took on High Elves an impressive Flames killed 3/4 of my Zombies turn 1... did I care? Nope. I just moved them right in front of a Dragon Prince unit to slow it down for a turn. And so they died to the flames in the next magic phase. Who cares? Certainly not me, and by then they'd redirected the Dragon Princes quite nicely. No banner, either



Au contraire, it's ALL about the physical results. If you're not wiping out stuff that matters from the first turn, then you're going to be ground into dust. Pressure is good, but it only goes so far.



How many lists have the magic power to do that? You're talking two attempts on 2 dice, then another two attempts on 3-4 dice. Against an army with 6-8 dispel dice. It's not bad, but it's not a worry for a good VC player. You've already said you haven't played against (m)any, try it sometime.



No, of course not. But we're talking about an army with cheap troops that can get back up. The core troops, the big blocks? They're the chaff in the VC army. If you're expending your entire arsenal into wiping them out while ignoring the real threats, you're playing right into the VC player's hands.



To get the characters in the unit? Sure, I already said that's the best reason to cast the spell. I don't know why it took you two posts and several paragraphs to get to the key reason to cast it, but I'm glad we got there in the end

Stormie, I agree with some points you make, but if the HE player is focusing on a block of zombies, he's an idiot. I know. Been there, done that. What WarpPhoenix is suggesting (I believe) is to get Flames off on a valuable unit (ie that block of 20 Grave Guard) that is neither cheap, nor expendable. Let the VC player then raise his unit of GG back up to full strength while ignoring Flames, or raise new unit of zombies (which we don't care about, since even our archers can beat them), or Van Hels his GG unit that's on fire, or finally waste his PD on dispelling Flames. If he ignores one Flames, much less two, odds are that
a) The unit will be around ten models or less when it reaches your lines and can be wiped out
b) A character or two will have taken a few wounds, and your characters can mop them up.

Combining the damage from magic and shooting makes it more likely that you'll be able to wipe the priciest block he has from the board quickly, then focus on mopping up the other units. This is, I feel, as viable as first going after the support, then goomba stomping the big block of GG with multiple CC units. I've used both strategies to good effect.

EDIT: Something else that's a bit risky but a lot of fun (against Tomb Kings and Daemons too) is to have two mages, on with Lore of Shadow, the other with Lore of Light and Cleansing Flare. Steed of Shadows the Light mage into a good spot and proceed to nuke the crap out of the enemy with Flare. Works well if he has lots of smaller units, Corpse Carts, Varghulfs, that sort of thing. High risk though, but the look on his face when you pull it off is always priceless.

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What happened to you Ulthuan? You used to be so cool...