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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 2:39 pm 
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With 8th Ed looming ever closer I was thinking we should start a tactics section for it. This is just a small run down which hopefully will evolve as 8th edition hits. If anyone has any other ideas to add them pop them down. I will also do more when time allows (did this during my lunch break :) )


A lot of our good old days will be gone. No more can small units of sword masters hack through larger units. No more hitting regiments with dragon princes in the front due to the stubborn rule. No more re-roll able 1+ lord save with a 4+ ward.

We will probably start seeing mass blocks of troops from the enemy which can take a hell of a beating and still get a lot of attacks back. I mean imagine a big block of saurus with spears… 2 attacks each front rank, 1 attack each 2nd rank, 1 from the 3rd rank…and if 10 wide another rank gets 1 attack. Potentially 40 Strength 4 attacks…..


So what do we have that can counter this now?

ASF:
Looks like High elves ignore the “great weapons always strike last” and since we now always strike in initiative order PLUS the chance or rerolls vs Lower WS enemy (which if pretty much most armies) then looks like we will be very good in combat (bar the fact we are low T)

Army options:

If the rumours are true then High Elves are and “elite” army. This means we can pretty much ignore the army restrictions.

Characters:

Because we will have more of a limit on characters and lots of new fancy items in the new rule book we can look at taking more of a mix. Since you only get 1 save in 8th then it seems pointless wasting too many points on armour. I will probably still use Vambraces of defence on a lord but then some support/killing stuff. I will still give him armour but just not armour of Calador or enchanted shield. Plus with a pretty high WS and the reroll chance, more attacks might be better than high strength.

Core:

With units losing that extra +1 to there armour save for hand weapon/shield (6+ ward in stared) we will have the advantage against Most core (obviously chaos warriors and co will still be an issue)

Archers:
The addition of the extra ranks shooting will make archers a great as small 5x2 units of 10 kicking around to support the advancing troops while not getting in the way.

SeaGuard:

2 ranks shooting with a 3rd doing half shots….free reform end of each move….extra ranks in combat…I think these guys will play a big part in 8th Ed High elf army’s. Being very tactically versatile will make them great to support your more combat effective units.

Spearmen:
Cheaper than seaguard and with 4 ranks normal now (5 if 10 wide) that’s a hell of a lot of Strength 3 attacks. Also if your unit is bigger than the enemy and attacked from the front you become stubborn. Could mean big blocks of stick elves handing around.


Special:

Lion chariots and Tiranoc Chariots

With the fear of instant str 7 now gone, these could become real players again. A lion chariot (with seems to be str 6 elves now due to mounted troups will get full great weapon bonus) means a harder to kill, fear causing (+1 combat res) big hitter. Could be very useful against big block infantry armies.

Swordmasters/white lions/ phoenix guard

For swordmasters the second rank gets to attack that means 22 attacks with rerolls against most things (at 7 wide). 3 ranks of 7 sword masters will allow for casualties and still deal a lot of damage

White lions will also extra attacks (again if 7 wide, the unit could now have 15 strength 6 attacks with rerolls…painful!)

With these 2 units comes the problem of numbers vs striking back. While spearmen are cheaper, our elites just don’t have the armour save to be able to take getting smacked back. We just have to support them more with knights since knights wont be able to take units solo anymore.

Phoenix guard are an exception. They will have the bonus row of attacks (so 5 wide = 11 attacks with champ) and with armies getting 1 save there 4+ ward save could be pretty damn useful. Coupled with the fear combat bonus these boys could be a great solid unit.


Shadow warriors:

Will remain the same pretty much from what I have seen except the march blocking might not be as good.

Dragon princes/silver helms

Will have problems due to large number units and stubborn rule. I think knights will turn into support units for infantry rather than shock troops. With having to have 2 ranks to remove enemy rank bonus/stubborn rule, the cheaper silverhelms might come back into armies just as flank hitters. Dragon princes will be better at taking small enemy units or aiding spearmen/other elites.

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:26 pm 
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maybe we should wait for the new rulebook first?

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Pretty sure it was discredited that you only have one save too?

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:45 pm 
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Just wanted to start throwing some ideas around since within a month we will know what we are up with. I know 8th Ed isnt out until July but player tests are starting to get thrown around. Im expecting GW to come to our local club soon also as they usually come and play test stuff before release

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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 11:41 pm 
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One save rule was as said by warp discredited. It's good news in some ways bad in others.

I can actually see the big blocks of spears being useful, especially with the stubborn rule they will be holding up the battle line while we use our elites to assist with the hard stuff.

Don't forget, 8th is apprently a lot more scenario driven, and while that doesn't mean you can't do
pitched battles, it does mean that if you are playing a scenario a lot of tactics change dramatically.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:52 am 
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Always strike last > Always strikes first. Great weapons still always strike last

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:00 am 
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pk-ng wrote:
Always strike last > Always strikes first. Great weapons still always strike last

Agreed, even if they go to striking in initiative order, like 40k, always strike last weapons will indeed always strike last (much like power fists in 40k).


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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:11 am 
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Thats true, excepting high elves.

Over at the Thread 8th edition and how it affects high elves help( http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32033&start=30), Foxbat Responds to Minsc saying the same thing with:
Quote:
Yes this is what is on the sticky, but was reversed in posts by others, IIRC, today in http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258856


And on that link, the quote he was looking at.

GodlessM, a prominent rumor mongerer on Warseer:
Quote:
Touche

On the Elves, High Elves' Speed of Asuryan allows them to strike first with GWs still, or at least that's what I've been told is listed on the FAQ that comes with/after the book. So Swordsmasters are going to be quite impressive
.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 10:57 am 
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The 8th edition rumour and this topic got me thinking. I think we will get to see a lot more of Tyrion (where special characters are allowed of course). Think about it. At the moment we have 3 common lord choices: Teclis, Archmage and Star Dragon. With the changes to magic Teclis seems to be getting a big nerf, so he is out.

Then the Star Dragon. A fully kitted out Star Dragon comes in at around 640 pts. With the 25% points cap on lords he can only be fielded in games >2750 pts (give or take). So he is prettty much out asd well.

An archmage still seems to be a viable choice for those going magic heavy, although 2 lvls 2 might be better. However not everyone will want to go magic. This opens up the path for Tyrion. He is still a very tough, strong character with lots of fun items. Fear / Terror, which are the biggest weaknesses of Tyrion at the moment seem to be getting a big nerf. And all this for under 500pts (400-ish if I recal correctly), which means he can still be fielded in 2000pts games. I think he will be worth his points in 8th and make a much more regular appearance starting from July.

hmm, maybe I should get myself a Tyrion model.

Rod

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 11:10 am 
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You make a valid point, and with Silverhelms not sucking as much, its a nice place to slot him while keeping fluffy! Hmmm, time to paint my Tyrion i think.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Tyrion with rerolls for ASF would be great with his High ws and I. The once per game flame ability will be awesome also if its gets the new rules for templetes (everything touched is hit)

Tyrions only problem has always been the lack of psycology resistant stuff like immune to fear/terror/psycology or stubborn. Now auto break has gone he I think he will be used alot more also.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 2:05 pm 
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Aethyr wrote:
You make a valid point, and with Silverhelms not sucking as much, its a nice place to slot him while keeping fluffy! Hmmm, time to paint my Tyrion i think.


Why Silver Helms not sucking as much? I thought I read that the heavy cav marching rumor was nixed.

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PostPosted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:09 pm 
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because silver helms aren't consider heavy cav. they are medium cav therefore can march. assuming the rumours are true.

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 10:17 am 
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Both Silver Helms and Dragon Princes can march as normal, the rumour of them not being able to do so was false.

Silver Helms might still get a boos as flankers now since they are cheaper, and therefore more suited to be ranked up. Since you only get a single attack from the second rank of cavalry Dragon Princes aren't as superior in this role as they are nowadays. Cheaper command still gives the Silver Helms and edge, but then again they can't carry banners.

And since they cost less points they don't fill up the percentage quota as quick as Dragon Princes do, and thus gives us some more points to spend on other units.

For example:
10 Dragon Princes with full command costs 350 points and gets 16 S5 attacks on the charge

10 Silver Helms with full command costs 270 points a gets 11 S5 attacks on the charge

Inferior yes, but the points difference is 80 points. Those points gives you 5 elite infantry models, and they are most likely needed since our infantry will die quicker in 8th than they do now, and might need some extra bodies.

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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2010 11:50 am 
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DP should still be way better than helms. With the new infantry rules , neither unit can take them to the front and with SCR capped at 4 there really isn't any need to fork out the points for rank-breaking. If anything the divide between the two got a bit bigger with the prince's I6 meaning they basically always get re-rolls to hit.

A unit of 5 + BSB to the flank will, on average, cause a unit of 20 chaos warriors to take a break test on a three (assuming that step-up and 2 ranks works to the side): against anything else its even better.

Also, without knowing the BRB items, a lvl4 with annulian crystal + BoS looks to be a really competetive magic phase (especially if you get to pick spells).


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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:32 pm 
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anyone ever considered they might change point value of things? and ofc magic items might also be changed. just a thought.


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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 8:08 am 
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I've just had a look through our book again and Eltharion the Grim Warden caught my eye. With the changes to magic I think he becomes very viable, especially on stormwind who no doubt will gain at LEAST crush them, but more likely DESTROY THEM!. While obviously not a star dragon, he actually fits in a 2k game.
I could see a build with say, a dragon mage and a fighty hero or bsb, or perhaps 2 level 2 mages and a bsb/fighty hero.
Thoughts?

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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 8:12 am 
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That's the problem with rules speculation, and even playing the sample games. We are missing half the picture. The errata could just clarify a few rules and change some obsolete items, they could also completely change the statline and cost of many units. We just don't know. I suspect that if the rules changes are a drastic as they are rumored to be that the errata will also have to be drastic. But we shall see.

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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2010 8:31 am 
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Sturen wrote:
That's the problem with rules speculation, and even playing the sample games. We are missing half the picture. The errata could just clarify a few rules and change some obsolete items, they could also completely change the statline and cost of many units. We just don't know. I suspect that if the rules changes are a drastic as they are rumored to be that the errata will also have to be drastic. But we shall see.


Most of us are fully aware of all this, however with the rumors flying around it's hard not to speculate and come up with ideas. When the book hits the shelves, and inevitably our hands we will see what was correct and what's going back to the drawing board.

The main thing that's good so far, for me at least, is that while we ARE only seeig half the picture, it's half a picture I'm really liking.
Now I just hope it's not like those emails that went around showing a Hot semi naked woman. Only then you scroll further through the pics and it shows you the other half of the picture and it's a tranny lol.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:20 am 
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I was thinking if it is true with the limit of 12 power dice then I assume any extra dice generated are wasted. If we have a level 4 mage he will generate on average 7 (2D6) + 4 (his level) =11 power dice. This would mean if we also took the banner of sorcery it would quite often be wasted unless we roll less than average on the 2d6 or am I mistaken.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:50 am 
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ithilmar wrote:
I was thinking if it is true with the limit of 12 power dice then I assume any extra dice generated are wasted. If we have a level 4 mage he will generate on average 7 (2D6) + 4 (his level) =11 power dice. This would mean if we also took the banner of sorcery it would quite often be wasted unless we roll less than average on the 2d6 or am I mistaken.

The rumours indicate that a wizard doesn't generate any powerdice. You just get the 2D6 pool dice. The wizard level is then added to any roll you make. So, if you cast a spell on two dice and you roll (say) 9 a level two would get a casting value of 11 and a level 4 would get 13.

This makes the banner of sorcery (or equivalent) more usefull as on average you will have only 7 dice and your opponent will have between 1 and 6 DD less than you. With the banner of Sorcery this changes to an average of about 9 and 2 to 8 DD less than you. And if there is indeed a maximum of 12 PD in the magic phase, with the banner of sorcery you will only exeed 12 (and thus waste some powerdice) about 10% of the time.

So all in all, it would be less usefull in the sense that you waste some PD 10% of the time. However, it does make your magic phase relatively more powerfull as you increase the difference between the number of PD and DD in every case except 6-6.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:27 pm 
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ithilmar wrote:
I was thinking if it is true with the limit of 12 power dice then I assume any extra dice generated are wasted. If we have a level 4 mage he will generate on average 7 (2D6) + 4 (his level) =11 power dice. This would mean if we also took the banner of sorcery it would quite often be wasted unless we roll less than average on the 2d6 or am I mistaken.



the level of the sorcerer is not powerdices.. its just add +4 to the casting value with an archmage for example


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Sturen wrote:
That's the problem with rules speculation, and even playing the sample games. We are missing half the picture. The errata could just clarify a few rules and change some obsolete items, they could also completely change the statline and cost of many units. We just don't know. I suspect that if the rules changes are a drastic as they are rumored to be that the errata will also have to be drastic. But we shall see.



the errata will not correct costs or whatever.. its just correcting wording like miscasts etc which are not anymore, so that some items will still function

at least that was the status of the erratas 1 week ago. from all the erratas the gw shop had .. half of them was skaven errata! so dont expect more than 2-3 pages for HE


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:59 am 
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Ok, thanks for clarifying that. It seems the banner of sorcery is definately worth taking if you are looking for a decent magic phase. Even if you generate 10 or 11 power dice from the 2d6 you might only get 1 or 2 more from the banner anyway so its quite unlikely that you will waste dice. There might also be some way to store power dice in the new rules.


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