How do you cope with 2 x hydras and a Black Dragon?

[Foxbat]

Recently ran into a dispute over a Hydra with a single handler charging my unit set-up with a five model front. My opponent set it up such that my 5th model was not in contact with anything although had the handler been located on the other side of the hydra it would have been in combat.

I questioned this but several other Dark Elf players saidthat “this is the correct way to play it”.

While the approach had no impact on the game as the my unit broke Hydra anyway, we're they right?

[geoguswrek]

As far as i'm aware you have the hydra's unit still follows the rules for skirmishers that require it to be in BTB with as many enemies as possible.

[lathian]

I focus fire the dragon, I use tiny fire spells on one hydra then try my luck against it with my LSG, and the other hydra I gank with my dragon princes by killing its handlers. If I can, I'll also toss my swordmasters at whichever hydra I need help with.

[geoguswrek]

14 swordmasters, champ, banner, banner of balance, talisman of loec. That normally breaks a hydra (ok it actualy normally gets breathed on but hey..

[Ptolemy]

My unit of 25 spears with warbanner ran off a hydra 2 games in a row. As others have stated, the handlers should be dead from the 3 attacks each they will see. If you start the combat with full rank bonus you've got a +6 going in. Even with the hydra's toughness and Regen, a single wound from the spearmen is still realistic. Thats a total res of +9. The hydra cannot win. It doesn't have enough attacks. Its leadership on its own is pretty poor IIRC. Persue and win.

The part that should piss off this entire forum is that if your 25 spears do manage to take down the hydra, they still haven't made back their points....

[Ilthaen]

The part that should piss off this entire forum is that if your 25 spears do manage to take down the hydra, they still haven't made back their points....

So true

Apart from focus fire, and holding those monsters with something if you can (i like white lions with lion banner for that), you can also use the mighty beast cower spell, the nigthmare of the dragon lords. It only uses 2/3 dices so the ring of hotek nearby should not be a big problem. Other than that, bring 4 RBTs, and focus fire, i have not found other thing more effective than that. Also if you don´t pick beasts, you can pick heavens and improve your RBTs throught second sign of amul (which for me works very well). But if you only have one mage then beasts is better, as if you beast cowers get dispelled/used up, you can also use the hunter spear (magical bolt thrower) and with BS4 is actually good agaisnt large targets! I find the hydras more annoying with their lucky regeneration rolls than any dragon could ever be. Unfortunately we don´t have any fire attacks over S4 so i don´t think it is a viable tactic to use flaming spells, i think it is more likely for your opponent to fail his 4+ regeneration rolls than for you to success your 5+ wounding rolls. Anyway if my opponent bring something i like a dragon + 2 hydras, i would have no remorse and bring a hard list prepared to deal with it. If it is unexpected you can only do your best with what you have, but i think beast cowers is key here for dealing with such armies.

[Kethnae]

Ilthaen, the Hunters Spear auto-hits if you cast it successfully, so the Mage's BS is irrelevant. Definitely useful for clipping a wound off.
It would be something of an odd choice vs. most Dark Elves, but if you've got a host of dragons, hydras (and maybe some Cold Ones added in) you could consider the Lore of Metal for Rule of Burning Iron and Spirit of the Forge. Now, they'll only wound the Hydra on a 5+, but it will cancel both their scaly skin armor and regen in one go, so you don't need to suffer the pain of watching all your hard-earned wounds getting shrugged off.
The math on the matter follows like this, if you're wounding on a 3+, 2 of every 3 hits wound then the Hyrdra tries it's regen save (4+ = 50%) then 1 of every 3 hits is an unsaved wound. Using Burning Iron or its grandaddy Spirit of the Forge you wound on a 5+, which means 1 in 3 hits wound, and allow no armor or regen saves, so really it's a wash. The various Lore of Fire attacks are slightly less impressive because they allow that scaly skin save (modified to a 5+). Of course, my local dark elf Hydra has absurd regen luck, I'll take anything that guarantees I never have to see him roll those regeneration saves.

[geoguswrek]

Fire magic FTW. Its only t5 so s4 fire can bring it down quite happily.

[SpellArcher]

(magical bolt thrower

Though it doesn't carry the D3 wounds of the machine. Still worth a look though, I agree.

[Ilthaen]

Thanks for the tip, seems like i have been playing wrong then, i thought the hunter spear was pretty much the same as a bolt thrower (roll to hit, 1d3 wounds, no save) but re-reading the description you are both right, it only says that act as bolt thrower for penetrating ranks, nothing else... bummer

Also Kethnae i think your idea about using spirit of the forge is very good, i had not thought about it. With 2d6 impacts you get an average of 6 hits minimun, at 5+ to wound that is at least 2-3 wounds to the hydra. The only thing to be wary of would be of the ring of hotek, as it is a spell that requires many dices. But other than that yeah it is a very good idea and probably the best way to take a hydra down avoiding his stupidly lucky regeneration saves. If you could combine it with a second sign of amul to reroll the wound rolls... that would be the cherry on top

I also think it is more effective than 2 distillations of silver (2d6 f4 fire hits) because each distillation need 3 dices to cast, making it 6 dice in total. Plus you can´t cast it more than a single time each turn. The spirit of the forge on the other hand only requires around 4 dices, and have more chances to do the wounds to the hydra.

[Minsc]

I also think it is more effective than 2 distillations of silver (2d6 f4 fire hits) because each distillation need 3 dices to cast, making it 6 dice in total. Plus you can´t cast it more than a single time each turn. The spirit of the forge on the other hand only requires around 4 dices, and have more chances to do the wounds to the hydra.

Both spells work, but I wouldn't call SotF 'more effective' than DoMS.

DoMS requires on Average 3 PD (10,5) to get it off, inflicting on average 7 S4 hits, casuing 1,55 wounds. (0,52 wounds/PD)
SotF requires on Average 4 PD (14) to get it off, inflicting on average 7 S4 hits, casuing 2,33 wounds. (0,58 wounds/PD)

SotF deals slightly more wounds to a Hydra, but DoMS is much easier to cast (8+ compared to 12+), and is in general a much better spell against DE than SotF is. (Only really usage is agains a Hydra, a Dragon and CoK's, while DoMS works against anything.)

Not to mention that a Level 2 can easily cast DoMS, but will have a hard time getting SotF through.

[SpellArcher]

Not to mention that a Level 2 can easily cast DoMS, but will have a hard time getting SotF through.

Metal is of course a good Lore in general but fits nicely with the Seermage. DoMS on three dice and then a nice two-die option of ROBI or Commandment, depending on foe.

[Ilthaen]

Both spells work, but I wouldn't call SotF 'more effective' than DoMS.

DoMS requires on Average 3 PD (10,5) to get it off, inflicting on average 7 S4 hits, casuing 1,55 wounds. (0,52 wounds/PD)
SotF requires on Average 4 PD (14) to get it off, inflicting on average 7 S4 hits, casuing 2,33 wounds. (0,58 wounds/PD)

SotF deals slightly more wounds to a Hydra, but DoMS is much easier to cast (8+ compared to 12+), and is in general a much better spell against DE than SotF is. (Only really usage is agains a Hydra, a Dragon and CoK's, while DoMS works against anything.)

Not to mention that a Level 2 can easily cast DoMS, but will have a hard time getting SotF through.

The disadvantages of spirit of the forge is needing an archmage or a power stone in a lvl2, plus the ring of hotek. As you have pointed you do more wounds with Spirit of the forge, even if it is only sligthly more. You should´ve pointed out as well that a 3 dice spell is much easier to dispel than a 4 dice spell, also, you can´t cast the same spell more than one time, which means you need several mages for distillation to be better than spirit of the forge, and then you need 6 dices to cast both spells instead of 4. And with spirit you take wounds from the hydra faster that you will ever do with distillations.

With an archmage you can get both Spirit and distillation on a hydra (4 dices spirit, 3 dices distillation. Archmage + saphery setup. 7PD minimun) so there is no reason to choose between them if you can afford an archmage. If you don´t use an archmage then obviously distillation is your best bet after that, but spirit of the forge is clearly superior both in actual wounds and in power dices used, as i said previously distillation is easier to dispel and have you relying again on the lucky rolls of your opponent to get the wounds off. Spirit on the other hand is a lot harder to dispel (likely to get scrolled) or your opponent will throw 5 dispel dices to stop you, then you have free reigns with your other 3-5 dices to cast again. A distillation is dispersed with 4 dices (sorceress + grhond) and you will be have a hard time getting more off without another mage. How is your other mage going to pick distillation without the seer wand? It´s nearly better you stick with fire ball in that case.

Lastly the topic of the thread is about dealing with dragons/hydras, not other dark elf units. I don´t know why you point that distillaton is useful agaisnt other things, well yeah, then also is the ring of fury or even core archers agaisnt dark riders. If you are facing 2 hydras + dragon and you use your flamming missiles on other things but the hydra... not a sound choice imho.

[Minsc]

I'm not sure what or even if you last point was trying to prove anything Ilthaen. I was agreeing with you that SotF does more wounds / dice to a Hydra than DoMS, just that it's not so much better that you made it sound.
Anyway:

Archmage with Silverwand
Mage with Seerstaff
Banner of Sorcery.

9-11 PD, 10 Average. 4 for SotF, and 2x3 for DoMS.

Lastly the topic of the thread is about dealing with dragons/hydras, not other dark elf units. I don´t know why you point that distillaton is useful agaisnt other things, well yea

You should read my reply again - I didn't say that DoMS was useful against other DE units; I said that it was more useful against other DE units than SotF is. It's a bit redundant, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

[SpellArcher]

grhond

Don't see this much these days, though I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

Partly because the other Enchanted Items are even better I guess and partly because it isn't 25pts anymore.

[Allerion]

you could try a dice-spam army; 4 RBTs, spears, SM, DP, Dragon, caddie.

would you get ripped to shreds by his shooting? yes

can you beat his hydras/BD? if youre lucky.

[Keith]

Just take two Doom Wheels.... oh, wait...

[AJ21st]

Recently, my Archmage cast Fiery Blast on a War Hydra protected by the Ring, miscast, rolled double 1 and disappeared in Turn 1. It's risky killing the protected War Hydra with spells but it's worth trying with D6 and 2D6 flaming magic missile spells.

Then my 2 RBTs did single shot, 1 shot managed to wound and caused 3 wounds (with Str2 isn't scary anymore). Plus 3 Reaver Bow shots which failed to cause any wound. Later volley shots from 1 RBT caused 2 wounds and killed the War Hydra. I think 2 RBTs plus Reaver Bow could do some harm to the War Hydra, even killing it.

In theory to take care of 2 War Hydra and a Black Dragon, I'd take flaming magic missile spells to hurt War Hydras, beast cower spell to stall the Dragon and 2/3 RBTs plus Reaver Bow to hurt the beasts.

[Ilthaen]

I'm not sure what or even if you last point was trying to prove anything Ilthaen. I was agreeing with you that SotF does more wounds / dice to a Hydra than DoMS, just that it's not so much better that you made it sound.
Anyway:

Archmage with Silverwand
Mage with Seerstaff
Banner of Sorcery.

9-11 PD, 10 Average. 4 for SotF, and 2x3 for DoMS.

Lastly the topic of the thread is about dealing with dragons/hydras, not other dark elf units. I don´t know why you point that distillaton is useful agaisnt other things, well yea

You should read my reply again - I didn't say that DoMS was useful against other DE units; I said that it was more useful against other DE units than SotF is. It's a bit redundant, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

Now i read your post again and i think you are right, i think i just misunderstood it. I don´t know if my previous post came around as being rude but if you felt it was i apologise, it was not my intention.

Well the point i was trying to make is that SotF is quicker to drop wounds from the hydra than DoMS is, but then you proved it already before. I was pointing to how 4 dice spells are much more likely to get in and how in general if you want to go magic heavy an archmage is much more effective than what two lvl2s can do. I agree with the setup you just posted, seems like the best for this strategy, only thing is that i hate when silver wand give you all spells except the one you need, it has happened me several times (bad luck i guess) and now i really hate that item . Perhaps giving the Archmage (i am agaisnt this usually but dire situations...) the Seafarer bow and one noble/mage the reaver bow, those are some more high strength attacks your opponent can´t do anything about.

Another thing that could work is the star lance+loec on a noble, making the hydra rerolls his regeneration rolls is almost as good as negating them. Thought noble would give half his points just using loec, not something i like. I usually reserve loec for a suicide champion (swordmasters is good) or a prince who have 3 wounds.

The most i´ve faced together are 2 hydras, but no dragon. What i did was to focus all the bolt throwers/magic on one, and annoy the other with eagles and beast cower, until i´m ready to take it down as well. I once managed to make one hydra enter a forest and it was funny how much time it spent trying to get out. The breath is not so funny thought, so stay away even if it is inside the forest.

If i faced a dragon + 2 hydras i would probably have a hard time picking among so many targets. Probably what i would do is to first beast cower the dragon, and focus everything on him. After he is down, i would beast cower one hydra while i try to destroy the other. If everything goes well in the end there will only be one hydra which can be controled with beast cowers and killed more easily. Too much wish thinking i know, it would probably be a lot harder than that with your opponent hiding his dragon/hydras and in general just playing agaisnt you.