On Dark Elves

[Enginseer]

So I've recently come into some trouble - dark elf raiders have taken to raiding my temple cities and phoenix ships. I've played one game against them with my lizardmen which was great fun.

I'm starting this thread to discuss the strengths/weaknesses of the dark elf army. I don't want to read recitals of every rule in the dark elf army book - I own it myself and am capable of reading. I do want to hear of how you have dealt with our murderous cousins in the past, any tips you have and other general pearls of wisdom you may have accumulated.

For example I learned that dark elf cavalry has advantages over high elf cavalry - they are less likely to suffer from rubber lance syndrome. I also leaned that dark elf characters can be fairly nasty largely due to hatred (its a great rule)

[geoguswrek]

Their Cav is better than ours, but not by a lot. Their infantry is better than ours, but not by a lot, their shooting is in a completely different league to ours. their magic is better, but not much.
you need to kill some shooting quickly, target it out with your shooting/magic (avoid the ring though). Make a rough guess at his points cost to guess how many assasin are hiding. be careful about charging if there are assasin about.
Other than that, the advice will need to be specific, so what kind of dark elf army you delaing with?

[Wildling04]

Couple of thoughts on the comparison (I gave tips on a HE perspective, not sure if you'll just be playing lizards as you did mention phoenix ships):

I'd say their core infantry is slightly better than ours, though I think our elite infantry is far superior imo. DE heavy cav is better in combat in general (though against WS 4 or less I give Princes the edge, sorry I don't count SH here) but with lower movement and stupidity. Their fast cav is a lot better than ours. though. I think they lack an equivalent of our eagles.

I agree with Geoguswrek, though. Put pressure on their shooting or minimize it through magic and deployment. White lions (even a small unit) can be effective in lining up opposite any cold ones.

I'd use drain magic to limit his magic phase, especially since it doesn't have a target and can't be affected by the Ring of Hotek. If it is a magic heavy army, he may not bother with the ring. White lion chariots can be effective mage killers.

Usually DE players like to put ASF on their black guard, so smashing into it with a couple chariots could be the way to go, especially lion chariots.

You'll also need to figure out a way to deal with the hydra. Either divert it with eagles or hit it with bolt throwers. Put wounds on it before it gets into combat so that you can kill it when it gets there. Eternal Hatred with 7 attacks is gross.

Dark elves also have one of the most unkillable lords in the game. A 2+ armor, 2+ ward (reverse) and 4+ regen, so beware.

From a lizardman perspective, Skinks and stegadons would give DE some trouble (or course, who wouldn't they?). Really any shooting will be tough for them to deal with for the same reason it is tough for HE to deal with.

Hope that helps, and as geoguswrek mentioned, more specifics on your army and theirs would allow more specific feedback.

[Enginseer]

i'm not going to give my army composition because I don't want this thread to be about army selection. I'd rather the focus be on tactics or general strategies with/against dark elves.

Thanks to those who replied so far.

I've found DE chariots pretty ferocious too. One of them took on my salamander hunting pack (with two attached skink priests) and wiped them out.

Their magic is pretty impressive too - with no limit on the number of die you can use to cast a spell, it can be difficult to plan your dispelling.

[Wildling04]

i'm not going to give my army composition because I don't want this thread to be about army selection. I'd rather the focus be on tactics or general strategies with/against dark elves.

Thanks to those who replied so far.

I've found DE chariots pretty ferocious too. One of them took on my salamander hunting pack (with two attached skink priests) and wiped them out.

Their magic is pretty impressive too - with no limit on the number of die you can use to cast a spell, it can be difficult to plan your dispelling.

Fair enough on the specifics. Their chariots are mean, though I think that chariots are pretty tough in general. I haven't seen a ton of them, though, probably again due to stupidity.

[geoguswrek]

I haven't read the whole lizzie book, but i got the jist of it, so the errors here aren't my fault.
a slann with the +1 to cast and some other tricks would be helpful to counter the DE shooting, it also is good against the hydrae.
You will need some skinks, and the new saurus infantry is amazing with spears:high AS + 4 s4 attacks is pretty good. i favour units of 12, some will get there, and kill when they do.
Saurus cav are good too, so are steggies. so i'd go with these guys for the basis of the army.
These boys and girls are hard enough to weather the DE shooting and actually get there, i'd also suggest a nike saurus (yes i do know the new nikes are a bound spell), to go shade hunting and assasin hunting. with a slann mage priest, no one is wasting 2 dice on stopping steed of shadows, so your nike saurus is gonna go flying wherever he wants, in effect giving him a 28" move!
other than that

[Scythera]

I've been playing DE a few months now and, in the spirit of countering DE Cheese... :-

1. The War Hydra.
This guy is awesome. I've named mine Larry and he is instrumental in winning every game he's in (even his death is handy to the cunning DE player). The obvious weakness though is his handlers. Sure, you can't attack them in combat if you can attack the Hydra and any time shooting or magic hits would be randomised between them they'll always hit the Hydra (awesome rule!) so just hit them with templates. A dragon breathing across the handlers should do the trick and, if in doubt, Wall of Fire states that it affects the entire unit - ie. handlers as well.

Also, plugging them with RBTs can be effective - though it hasn't been against me - Larry's one lucky 7-headed fellow when it comes to regen saves...

2. Cold One Knights // Chariots.
RBTs = Game over. My cold ones never survive the battle when I'm up against HE and their stupidity rule has screwed me more than once, leaving me open to a charge from Dragon Princes (yes, we are *very* scared of them)

3. The Invulnerable Dreadlord.
1+ mundane save, inverse ward save & regen. Nice. But he still has T3 so hit him with something that negates armour saves but still has a low strength. suddenly a 2+ ward becomes a 4+ and your chances look a whole lot rosier.

4. Dark Magic.
Again, truly awesome. Thank you, Gav Thorpe. But I'd say it's still not as powerful as High Magic - Whatever you say about our magic, Vaul's Unmaking is game-winning if cast right (on our dreadlord for example). Also, as someone else said here, Drain Magic will shut us down completely in our phase.

5. Shooting.
Don't forget, your RBTs get longer range and +2 bolts on ours. And your bows are 6" longer range as well. Only an idiot tries to outrange HE with the Druchii...

[geoguswrek]

err the rbt thing? what?

[Musashi]

I don't play lizzies, but have you tried this?

It should only work once on an unwary DE player, and then it's a 50% chance. Allow them to accumulate their extra PD, and hit the next spell with Cube of Darkness. Unused accumulated PD should cause a wound.

[geoguswrek]

mushashi! that is amazing!
would the vortex shard work similarly for HE? haven't read the rules for it in a while.

[Musashi]

Sadly, no, otherwise there would be a lot of cursing going on on the other side of the table.

You have to activate the Shard at the beginning of the phase, the Cube of Darkness during the dispel sub-phase.

[Scythera]

err the rbt thing? what?

DE RBTs only have 48" range and get 4 shots on the volley... My HE opponent has told me that your RBTs have longer range and shoot 6 shots...

[Zakath2]

err the rbt thing? what?

DE RBTs only have 48" range and get 4 shots on the volley... My HE opponent has told me that your RBTs have longer range and shoot 6 shots...

Heh, I don't know how this is possible if both of you have your armybooks but the RBTs are similar in every aspect

Both fire 6 bolts with range of 48" if using the volley option[/quote]

[Musashi]

DE RBTs have 4 shots? You may want to check your army book again.

[Crawd]

DE RBTs only have 48" range and get 4 shots on the volley... My HE opponent has told me that your RBTs have longer range and shoot 6 shots...

That was in 5th edition, it was changed to 6 shots since the 6th and haven't changed since then.

[garythewargamer]

Recently I played against a DE close combat army. He had the ring and he bunkered up. His advance across the board was trully awesome and I was frustrated about the ring. I tried to avoid the area but was unsuccessful.

[Scythera]

Recently I played against a DE close combat army. He had the ring and he bunkered up. His advance across the board was trully awesome and I was frustrated about the ring. I tried to avoid the area but was unsuccessful.

A Dragon Mage shouldn't have much problem getting away from it... Though admittedly that could take him away from the fight, maybe a mage on an elven steed?

[Enginseer]

that ring is such a pain in the butt! and so cheap for what it does.

Maybe the best way to get around it is to switch to low casting values. With two dice for a spell, the chance of miscasting with the ring is only 1/6. Hit whoever has it with the rule of burning iron, or maybe a nice fireball?

[Musashi]

Low casting value spells would be the bane of such an artifact; problem is that we can't spam them.

[Lhachmacar]

Hit whoever has it with the rule of burning iron, or maybe a nice fireball?

Rule of Burning Iron is one of the better counters to the Ring of Hotek I've found. Fairly reliable cast on two dice and if your opponent has the Ring on a champion instead of a hero your problem can be solved with a single cast. Just hope your opponent wasn't wary enough to put a couple of Null Talismans in the same unit...

[geoguswrek]

it all depends where the ring is, and what else is in his army: on a cok, RoBI is the way to go. on a Bg, less so. with mages in the list you can ignore it and target the stuff outside, without he'll turtle around it and the game will be a toughie.

[oscar1492]

yer i play DE same as Scythera. i find that these units are my best killers:

1.dark elf warriors. thats right the simple warrior. there just as good as HE warriors but given hatred they really tear up against anything especially HE. i usually play them in a big group of 24 with an assassin. that allways gets people because they think the assassin is in a stronger unit.

2.executioners. as u may have guessed i put tem in a rank of 7 at the front. thats 8 S6 ASF attacks at -4 AS. gotta love it. if they are near a CoB there is narly nothing thatcan stop them seeing as their stats go from what i said to, Stubborn ASF 17 S6 attacks at -4 AS. mwahahaha brillient. i find that the best way to take these guys down is with massed shooting or magic. they only have a 5+ AS.

3. RBT's and RXB's. i alsway take2 RBT's and 2x 10 RXB squads even though they are outranged by their HE counterpart it doesnt matter once i get into range.i also put shields on them to double as back up troops just in case.

[garythewargamer]

I had thought these ideas might take care of the ring but now that I heard from all of you I guess I will have to give it a try.

[Arhain]

yer i play DE same as Scythera. i find that these units are my best killers:

1.dark elf warriors. thats right the simple warrior. there just as good as HE warriors but given hatred they really tear up against anything especially HE. i usually play them in a big group of 24 with an assassin. that allways gets people because they think the assassin is in a stronger unit.

Not sure about the "just as good as HE warriors" Our 3 ranks and ASF generally means we not only outclass dark elf spears, but the other DE elites as well (barring the banner of hag.)

2.executioners. as u may have guessed i put tem in a rank of 7 at the front. thats 8 S6 ASF attacks at -4 AS. gotta love it. if they are near a CoB there is narly nothing thatcan stop them seeing as their stats go from what i said to, Stubborn ASF 17 S6 attacks at -4 AS. mwahahaha brillient. i find that the best way to take these guys down is with massed shooting or magic. they only have a 5+ AS.

That's only if you put the ASF banner with them, which requires a BSB. It does make them incredibly nasty though Giving them the extra -1 banner is just brutal.

3. RBT's and RXB's. i alsway take2 RBT's and 2x 10 RXB squads even though they are outranged by their HE counterpart it doesnt matter once i get into range.i also put shields on them to double as back up troops just in case.

This has nothing to do with what oscar said, but I am a little confused at some of the comments:

I'd say their core infantry is slightly better than ours, though I think our elite infantry is far superior imo. DE heavy cav is better in combat in general (though against WS 4 or less I give Princes the edge, sorry I don't count SH here) but with lower movement and stupidity. Their fast cav is a lot better than ours. though. I think they lack an equivalent of our eagles.

I don't see how you can say DE core infantry is better than ours. HE spears are better than any of the DE infantry, core or special. This isn't including the Black Guard with the ASF Banner of course. Besides that combo, HE spears can take on any DE infantry in a straight up brawl. DE heavy cav is better than ours? Not sure about that. As you mentioned, the lack of stupidity and a higher movement are huge, coupled with the 2 A's, and i'd take DP's any day.

Their fast cav is a lot better, as well as their shades. Shooting wise, DEs do it MUCH better than we do. RXB's are just insane in 7th.

Harpies are also brutally good.

[Musashi]

1. I wouldn't take on the DE with HE in a straight shooting contest.

2. I fancy our chances in the Magic Phase if it weren't for RoH.

3. Dark riders are better than Reavers.

4. I fancy our chances in the Heavy Cavalry Stakes.

5. Without Assassins, I'd take on their infantry with our Spears.

[Cenyu]

executioners. as u may have guessed i put tem in a rank of 7 at the front. thats 8 S6 ASF attacks at -4 AS.

Only if you put a Death Hag BSB into the unit who carries the respective banner.

[Original Dragon Prince]

i definitely agree with arhain about our combat units. the asf banner can't be everywhere at once so that unit should be a priority shooting or chariot target. other than a unit with the asf banner, the only thing they have that can stand up against us in melee is the infamous, notorious, blasphemous, and downright broken hydra. assassins are also a problem, but we have some tricks up our sleeve as well like the ethereal archmage and the standard of balance. overall, i'm not scared of dark elves. they have several very nasty tricks, but so do we. i'll close with a quick tip, a noble bsb with the battle banner in a unit of dp's with the standard of balance is a perfect hydra-killer, as a matter of fact, that unit will destroy anything the dark elves have that isn't stubborn or a dragon.

[Marinero]

Dark Elves are a very decent and nicely thought of army book. They can take on any opponent and have a good chance to win.

Things that particularly shine in the DE list (I am assessing the army overall, not against HE in particular):
1. The hydra - the thought of it makes me green with envy
2. Shades - absolutely wonderful unit, one should always buy them either an additional handweapon or a great weapon
3. Repeater xbows - very powerful and way more useful than our archers -1 to AS makes all the difference in the world, as they can take out knights with massed missile fire. HE archers on the other cannot, becasue AS2+ is very difficult to bypass, while AS3+ gives you 100% more wounds
4. Hatred on their dragons and manticores - this is huge. I have fluffed my to hit rolls with my stardragon way too often, to not understand and cherish the ability to reroll to hit.
5. Dark raiders - thanks to hatred, they are much better at warmachine hunting, flank charges, as the re-roll to hit makes sure that they will do a lot of damage to lightly armoured opponents.

Also, the point cost of the models in the army is relatively low, which gives you a nice feeling of value for money for pratctically all DE units. This in turn allows for great customization of the army, and testing different builds.

As for the Druchii - Asur confrontation, I feel that the armies are fairly evenly matched. It comes down to the particular lists that are in combat and the general skill of the players, imo, to determine who gets the upper hand. And the luck goddess. Battles between the 2 armies are almost always very bloody.

DE have one very big handicap, which is painfully well known to any elf player - T3, AS5+ across the board. If one manages to reduce the enemy potential to decimate his troops with missile and magic, then the DE have all chances to do very well

[neevron]

The HE and De AB`s are funny. I`m playing the high elves and my friend the DE we`ra almost the same in cav, our inf is better but much more expensive, and the magic is egual. But our spear costs 10 points, and the DE warrior 7 points. The cost of this 3 points in every inv regiment is the ASF i think. And tell me is the ASF worth these pionts against DE? No I do not think so. But against other armys it is. When `m playing whit skaven they are killed by the ASF. But against DE You have to kill them with magic.
if u r paying 2k+ than you take one archmage and 3 mages. 2 with lore of fire (against the hydra. You have to kill her before she reach ur inv, and the lore of fire kill her regeneration).
Take the lore of metal against their boltthrower and their cold ones.
Our cav deals with the black guard, the white lions take corsairs. our bol thrower the reapeders, and the sword masters are killing the rest. And I do not think some1 is so stupid to give executioners against HE...

And hide the mages in the PG and give them the banner of sorcery. Remembre we are the best magician in the world. And remember the fire lore will deal with the numerical superiority of the DE

[neevron]

And do not forget to cast drain magic after your mage turn