In Magic We Trust – 7th Edition High Elf Magic Tactica

[Ograloch]

Anathir - I don't think anyone is refuting your main magic build. Taking the AM with the Seer Staff and the other items you pointed out on earlier threads is not only viable, it's an excellent strategy.

I think the point here is that we have at least two really strong ways to build a solid magic phase - your way, and the BoH way.

Already since I started using the BoH, I'm seeing my opponents scale back on their magic defense. Instead of 4 dispel scrolls in 2000 point games, I'm seeing 2. Instead of 7 DDs, I'm seeing 5.

Why are they reducing their magic defense? It's specifically because I have been bringing the Book of Hoeth, which renders DDs and scrolls mostly useless. Why spend all those points on magic defense when you won't get to use it?

My point here is that I am creating an environment in my gaming group where using the Anathir AM build is suddenly a much more viable option for me because people have lowered their magic defenses.

I'll probably go another few weeks with the BoH, and then suddenly switch over to your AM build.

One last thought about the BoH with regards to not being able to pick your spells. Even though you cannot pick them with the BoH, four spells is still a lot. I don't think I've ever gotten fewer than two spells that I can't find good, solid tactical uses for. And that means it's two spells that have a really good chance to be cast every magic phase with irresistable force.

You mentioned on more than one occasion that it can be a bad thing if you don't get that one spell you really need. I am of the opinion that nearly all the spells have their uses, and most of the time I can find solid uses for the spells I do get. While I agree with you that in certain situations some spells are better than others, I don't think I'm going to lose a game simply because I didn't roll that one spell. What good is having that one spell if your opponent brought 4 dispel scrolls and has 7 DDs?

Again - my point is that both builds are excellent. Yours may even be better than the BoH strat - but not by much. I recommend you try it again a few times ).

As to the DM - it's a preference thing. I bring him sometimes, sometimes I don't. It is a pretty good way to bring in the closest thing we have to a treeman, and for less points. He's only 230, the DM takes up the rest. And you were going to bring a mage anyway, right? Might as well be a mage that casts like a Slann.

[geoguswrek]

For Daemons: i have a little experience playing against this army, and so for items to watch out for you may want to mention the staff of nurgle - a bound spell that is horrible to elves and can be taken on any nurgle hero/lord and the slaanesh item that makes you charge or flee (it can pull your wizards into suicides).

[AJ21st]

Let me quote more elaboration on the topic of Silver Wand vs Seerstaff for Archmage from an answer in my thread, I think it also belongs to here.

Your level 4 mage has 5 spells. There are three lores that have 'big' spells (ie, spells that make the lore worth taking). Those 3 lores are metal, shadow and high magic. Metal provides anti-armor, Shadow provides anti-monster, and High provides anti-infantry.

Lets theoretically say that your archmage selects one of those lores specifically for the big spell, gets shafted and does NOT roll for it. For example, this means onn the metal chart he rolls 1,2,3,4,5. RBT are essentail in a magic list because they overlap with the mages and are able to cover each other when something goes wrong. In the case of the bad roll, you can have the RBT deal with the knights, and let magic deal with the RBT's old targets (fast cavalry, warmachines, etc). In which case you have the lvl2's seerstaff as back up. You can go full missiles and select two missiles for your lvl2, or curse of arrow attraction to help the RBT out, etc. There are ways to go around it.

So worst case scenario your archmage has 1,2,3,4,5 and your lvl 2 has 2,4 of high magic. You've got 10 pd on average, so thats 2x3 dice spent on 2d6 magic missiles, 2 dice for curse of arrow attraction, and 2 dice for the sniper spell (all of which are important and very effective). An alternative is heavens magic for the level 2, selecting the no armor thunderbolt and second sign for your rbt.

If the lvl 2 has a silver wand and has 3 spells, you can't really plan anything around him. The only thing you know he has is the default spell. We'll say the lvl 4 bigs one of the big lores. So, out of his 10 dice hes spending 4 to cast to big spell, and 3 to cast another missile. then what? fireballs? What will happen is that your opponent will let the fireball go through, scroll the big spell and use dice for the big missile. What will happen late game when scrolls are gone is that he'll start using dice to stop the big spell and let both missiles go through. In other words, barring good luck you'll never get that good spell through.

5/6 times your lvl 4 will roll that big spell, when this does happen your magic phase is considerably better then the alternate setup suggested. You have a 4 dice spell that will want to be scrolled, and then (and this is what makes it) another 3 dice spell that ALSO wants to be scrolled (handpicked from the entire spell book with 100% insurance) and a then a 3 dice missile/support spell to absorb dice.

Thats what I think high elf magic is all about; utilizing their wide spell range and the silver wand/seerstaff to make the most out of every single power dice available to them. When the lvl2's spell selection is compromised entirely for improving your lvl4's 83% selection rate to 100% the phase will start to lose out. Even in those 17% of games (1 game a tournament where you dont get the big spell) you can use the lvl2's selection and rbt support to adjust your tactics and get the job done a different way.

So, silver wand on archmage. seerstaff on lvl2.
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26534 Chapter 6

[SpellArcher]

Thank you Lord Anathir (and AJ21st!).

Not being a top-level player I can't really judge for myself if your set-up has the edge over other strong builds. Lots of food for thought though and a very thorough analysis of how to exploit the build.

[Raivn]

i am currently playing at 1000 point level and i don't use magic, this article is brilliant and i will definatley be using the tactics described, they are well thought out and learned from experience.

[Skybreaker]

I don't play (yet) - I did years ago at school but right now I'm slowly building up an army for the joy of painting/modelling.

I'm only coming up on 1000 points but I have no magic because I thought the huge investment of points for a naked caddy would be better spent on 2 chariots (almost).

I've never liked magic that much as it seems very unreliable and inconsistent. Game winning, then irrelevant the next match. But this excellent tactica has opened my eyes to the possibilities and I will be working towards your 2000 point list I think...

So the point of this rambling post is, IMHO it's not too long, or too short, or too biased (it's clearly coming from your perspective). But it has been *extremely* useful.

Fantastic stuff!

[Gondarion]

Let me add a little thing to Anathir's excellent analysis.

Your level 4 mage has 5 spells. There are three lores that have 'big' spells (ie, spells that make the lore worth taking). Those 3 lores are metal, shadow and high magic. Metal provides anti-armor, Shadow provides anti-monster, and High provides anti-infantry.

With high magic the reference is obviously to Flames of the Phoenix. I would add that its main value is not just "anti-infantry", it is also "anti-character/command". Flames specifically hits every model in the unit, meaning that it also works as a sniper against characters and unit champions, which is particularly good against mages and BSB's, in particular Heralds of Nurgle if the daemonic army doesn't have many dice at its disposal to dispel it later. Obviously this example entails a great deal of risk, but you can also use it to snipe black guard with ring of hotek, although steal soul or rule of burning iron is much better for this. If you kill the champion, that leaves the unit without someone who could accept a challenge and hold off something big you have (such as a dragon rider in bigger games).

Wall of Fire can be used for this purpose as well, especially since it starts at S4. Since it doesn't automatically do hits every turn at increasing S value, and since it can be ended by the opponent (at great cost), it may not be quite the "big" spell" , but I'd say it deserves honourable mention.

[Ograloch]

Do we know what happens when, after Flames of the Phoenix has been successfully cast on a unit containing a hero, the hero decides to leave the unit? Is the hero still affected on the following turn, assuming the spell is still in play? What about units he joins?

[Lord Anathir]

it says in the rulebook under RIP that you get to pick whether to keep the spell on the hero or the unit. From that I can deduce that units that rejoin are not affected by flames because they werent original targets of the spell.

[Marinero]

I'm glad you liked my tactica. Nirnaeth is indeed my alias. I felt that there is so much bias against me on this forum from a few people in particular that I wanted the tactica that I've been working on for a long time to be judged without bias.

Tehehe - I had a creeping suspicion that the tactical ideas and the army lists sounded familiar

I agree whole heartedly with your analysis and disposition.

I feel that at 2250 and 2500 point games there is an alternative and also deadly set up:

* Lvl 4, seer, ring of fury, dispel scroll; DM, lvl 2, silver wand, guardian phoenix: + BoS - best used at 2250 points

I know of your suspicion about the DM, but I think that you should undertake the same philosofical approach about him as the one that youhave about miscasts.

I have played with him a lot (according to my standards of limitted time) and I have found him extremely useful

With the DM you are likely to have 1 and at least one more decent spell from the fire lore, most probably 2. Fire blast, conflagration, burning head and the fire wall are all useful spells. Probably the sword is the least useful, but unless you roll both a 1 and a 2, in all other instances you can swap the 2 for a 1.

With the lvl 4 you can safely select the lore that is best suited for the particular opponent that you are facing.

With 4+2+2+3(reckless)+(D3) power dice you are likely to have an average of 13 dice plus the ring

This would allow you to cast: 4+3+3+3 easily and with great certainty. You can alternatively switch to 5+2+2+3 if it suits you better or any other combination..

Of course, your magic defence is weaker as it lacks 2 scrolls, but your magic offence is much stronger, and you also have a dragon.. With 3 RBTs and the magic that you command, I believe that you can secure a perimeter for the DM to operate in relative safety.

I do not say that the suggested combo is better than yours - I would say that lvl4/silver+lvl 2/seer is the most efficient magic set up available to us. But the set up that I suggest is also very decent and also allows to be used with more mobile lists - cavalry/chariot mix and I often mount the lvl 4 on a steed to keep up with the rest of the gang..

JMO though...

[PinkSpaceHippy]

Wow. I'm a new player, soon to begin building my army (once I amass $175 for the first box). This REALLY helped me understand how to best use magic. I was orginally looking for an army I could build relatively cheaply (compared to uber-expensive vampire counts, etc.) that would involve some powerful magic and good shooting to boot. Reading your article here has given me a very good understanding of how magic is used in WHFB and has helped me set up my list that I will use.

I am going to run an Archmage and Mage set up like yours, with another level 2 mage with a scroll and jewel of the dusk. I'll hide them each in 14-man units of spearmen, helping to guard a fire support base of 3 RBTs. For the backbone and combat of the army, I'm going to have 2 Tiranocs and 2 units of 5 Dragon Princes, one with Lion Standard, the other with Banner of Sorcery and a BSB thrown in with Battle Banner.

My plan will be for the most part to take fire on the AM and high on the 2's, to give me some really major damage spells as well as some useful support spells and some major anti-magic. I happen to have a couple armies at my local store that I know are high in magic power (especially a Tzeentch daemons list with Kairos and a bunch of other stuff), so being able to severely limit my opponent's magic phase is important to me.

With that list I'll start each phase with the Ring of Fury, then Fireblast (or Burning Head if I didn't get Fireblast), and then Conflagration of Doom (or Wall of Fire if I didn't get Conflagration, then Fireball if I'm on 14 dice for the turn, then Drain Magic, then another Drain Magic.

[Renufus]

Awesome post - I've been playing Warhammer for close to 10 years now but even I learned something from this. One thing I always have to get used to when coming back to High Elves from my other armies is that I'm overwhelmed for choice in the magic phase. With 9 lores to choose from on my Level 4 and having to go through and pick 2 spells from any of those 9 lores on my Level 2, generating spells always took ages. This simplifies the process quite a bit!

[Telabir]

anyone thought of Eltharion, noble with RGoH and a lvl 2 mage? seems like a nice balance

[Flame of the Asuryan]

Yes, but you cannot get big spells through with that magic setup. For offence, a Level 4 is probably better.