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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:57 pm 
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Greetings noble Elf Lords.

I love this site & High Elves in general. But I think we could make it better. There are not alot of current 7th edition or new High Elves tactics or articles.
How about:
1- A complete run-down on the new High Elves- strengths/weaknesses of each unit, uses of spells, good magic items
2- Specific army tactics vs. Dwarves, Empire,etc.
3- Some basic High Elf army lists, all-takers, themed, different points levels

I've seen such things on other WHFB sites & they are a great help to new players. I'd like to help, but honestly, Im new to High Elves & not qualified.
There are alot of great players giving good advice here, we just need to organize it & put it in one spot.
Maybe a small reward for those who write articles & contribute. A small medal or token by their name,etc.
I just want the site to be better & help new players.

thanks.
WoC


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:06 am 
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That'd be nice, but give it some time. The other sites have had years with their books and some aren't even halfway there.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:45 am 
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The truth is, people don't really know how to play high elves properly yet. Every method has its merits and disadvantages, and even the most bizare combinations can work at times.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:51 am 
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Marwynn and Anathir are both right. I honestly don't think that there is much, if anything, left to add. It will be years before we finally get something down, and there may be another book out with a combination that absolutely destroys it by then.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:57 am 
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Ive seen posts giving some good advice. Even old 6th ed. stuff can be updated. Players can give their ideas & experiences. It doesnt take years.
If established, more experienced members wont even try,(for whatever reason) Im going to at least make an attempt.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:39 am 
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Some good, solid starting tacticas on basic stuff that we get asked all the time would be good though. For example, people constantly post threads enquiring as to the best unit size for the elite infantry blocks, and though there are multiple answers a tactica which takes all the various differnt ideas and allwos the reader to decide would be good.

We wouldn't even need to write it, we could simply quote from previous threads, from where we think a good answer showing a tacticl nugget has been made.

Hey, you could even theme it up, make it a book of quotations by generals, sort of like the High Elf equivalent of the "Tactica Imperium" which is just a load of generals remarks, quotes and battle reports put on paper.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:42 am 
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Why not try to collect the information already posted on the forum? I'll give it a shot. Post some more and I'll attempt to compile it.

Tactica Asuria
Chapter One: Infantry.
§1 Core infantry:

Spearmen:
Deploy in Large Blocks, no less than 15, 5-7 wide.
Always Full Command.
Characters in Spears is a good choice.

Lothern Seaguard:
Versatile.
With Full command, deploy as spears with 15+ models.
Without command, deploy as a small unit of 10 to guard Bolt Throwers.

Archers:
No Elven General has ever deployed archers in blocks bigger than the minimum 10. Concentrate fire to break lesser enemy infantry blocks.

§2, Special Infantry.

White Lions:
As MSU unit, 5-8 models, tarpit enemy units and provide flanking support.
As infantry block: 2 ranks and banner provide combat resolution to change the unit from a tarpit to a block that breaks the enemy.

Phoenix Guard:
As MSU, not a preferred option to many due to low damage output. One option is to field small units as archery-screens in front of main combat units
As infantry block, needs ranks to provide numbers to hopefully break enemy units, and provide combat res. Ward Save gives this unit great survivability. Adding a character makes this unit dangerous.

Swordmasters:
As MSU, a preferred choice with swordmasters, due to low survivability.
5-8 models in each unit, each unit can plow through almost all enemy infantry with ease, assuming they survive the journey there.
As infantry block, survivability of the unit increases due to expendable wounds, adding combat resolution from ranks & Banners helps the unit break enemies and further increases it's offensive power. Supporting magic is essential to protect against enemy missile fire.

Shadow Warriors:
As MSU, excellent warmachine hunters, must stay away from heavy armoured enemies.
As infantry block, not possible per say due to being skirmishers.

Chapter 2, Cavalry:

Silver Helms.

Dragon Princes.

Ellyrian Reavers.

Chapter 3, Rare choices.

Bolt Throwers

Eagles

Dogs of War

Chapter 4, Characters
§1, Combat Characters

Tyrion

Alith Anar

Prince on Mount

Prince on Foot

Korhil

Caradryan

Noble on Mount

Noble on Foot

§2, Magic Characters

Teclis: Used to cast high-level spells with 5 dice to acheive Irresistable Force.

Archmage on Mount

Archmage on Foot

Dragon Mage: Best used with Silver wand to get an additional spell for a possible 3 free dice each magic phase.

Mage on Mount: Mounts give the mage manouverability, a chariot would give him hitting power and Unit Strength 5 which would allow him to remove rank-bonuses by means of a flank charge.

Mage on Foot: Can hide pretty well, depending on lore and spells, he should try to sit with an infantry block, such as Phoenix Guard.

§3, Combat & Magic Characters

Radiant Gem of Hoeth: Added the Lore-Rundowns from the Mage-Knight Thread, but they're pretty big, so I'm not typing them here.

Eltharion:

Chapter 5, Elven Magic Items, when and where?

Reliable combinations and a small comment on each item.

Chapter 6, Elven Magic.

9 Lore Rundowns plus some Mathhammer on dice rolls.

Chapter 7, Elven enemies.

Good tactics against every enemy, and general tactics against things like gunlines, cavalry and infantry armies.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Spider-Wells & Telephalsion- THANK YOU! Thats exactly the kind of thing Im talking about. It would help out new players alot.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:36 pm 
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Others may disagree, but I believe that our only elite infantry that is useful in small units are White Lions. Not enough Sword Masters, if any, will make it into combat. Also, Phoenix Guard, as you said, lack to damage output. I've never tried using them as screens, though it may work.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:04 pm 
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If I just keep getting information and feedback I'll keep working on this, and I'l try to give credit to those that contribute aswell. I'm keeping a textfile on my laptop and I'll work on it whenever I get something to put in it. If some of you start perusing the forums for tactical discussions it would save me some detective work. ^_^

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:45 pm 
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Just a note here that I am watching this with some interest, and I plan to find some way of promoting this so anyone that's missed the thread will see it, and also so new people can find it, as it has the potential to be very useful.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:49 pm 
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How about these useful quotes...

Marwynn, on the usefulness of Phoenix Guard. The question, how would you use them?

Quote:
As anvils, my good man, they're second to none in the High Elven army.

I'm fighting with two blocks of 15 now, with a fighty BSB in one of them, the other the Archmage's bodyguard unit. Had one smacked by suspiciously accurate Helstorm rocket fire that hit almost everyone in the PG block but they all made their saves to the astonishment of the Empire player.

And no, S4 won't kill much, even with WS5. However they're also decent against Daemonettes who can also have ASF, thereby giving you an opportunity to use that I6 (hehe, yay no Great Weapon). It would've been nicer if the Phoenix Guards worked out more and gotten S4 base, thus giving them an S5 attack. But that may be pushing it.

As usual they can't stand alone. Flankers are a necessity here, they can with through CR some of the time, but that's best done by removing the enemy's CR.

I field them in 15s, I find that is often enough.


Here's Milliardo runnign us down on the High Elf as regards to a MSU build.

Quote:
Here's a quick breakdown, at least as I see it.

White Lions: 7 to about 12. White Lions function well in an MSU role because in small units they can hide more easily in wooded terrain. They don't have the sheer amount of attacks as Swordmasters, but with Stubborn and the increase save versus missile fire, they can work a bit more independently, and are good at flank charges to deny rank bonus. 12 is about as large I'd field them and still call them MSU, and is about what I find ideal.

Swordmasters: 6 to 12. I field these in even smaller numbers than the White Lions because they're potentially so devastating, yet because they're the easiest to kill they need to be hidden from missile fire until they can be of use. This means that its hard to hike them across the battlefield in small numbers, and so they fit in better with a defensive force. Hide them behind terrain and larger blocks. Even if they lose a model or two to missile fire and can no longer remove rank bonus, the amount of kills they can generate is still very useful.

Phoenix Guard. 12+. I don't believe these work well in an MSU role. They don't have the high strength attacks of the White Lions or the amount of attacks the Swordmasters bring, and so need a combat lord to compensate. The only advantages of small units is that they won't be autobroken by fear causers and they can make missile screens while you advance.

Shadow Warriors: Also useful in smaller numbers. If you try to put too many in a unit, finding a piece of terrain large enough to hide them becomes difficult, and they'll have trouble slipping through gaps in your enemies deployment when hunting for warmachines and archers.

Cavalry: All elven cavalry is useful in an MSU role, particularly Dragon Princes. Silver Helms are really the only unit I would try to field in larger numbers, and much like Shadow Warriors, Reaver Knights work have worked best for me when in small, easily manuverable units that can take full advantage of terrain to hide while moving.

Core Troops: Spearmen are right out for me. I'd never field a unit less than 15, because for me they're in the list to provide numbers and wounds. They really can only be expected to perform in larger numbers with a combat hero or lord, and putting a hero in an MSU unit is dangerous.
Archers work best in 10-12 elf units, again so they can take advantage of hills and actually fit on them. A large unit of archers is expensive and fragile.
Seaguard are really the only core that comes close to MSU for me. They've worked very well for me in units of 10-12 working as RBT and Archer guardians, or as flank guards for larger units of infantry, where they can harass enemy with short-range bowfire, picking off a few models here and there and removing rank bonus with flank charges.

High Elves aren't as good as Wood Elves at a true MSU build, but benefit from a mixed build. Having one or two main battle units with four or five MSU units works really well for me. I hope that helps you get started or confirms some thoughts...


And from the recent spearmen debate comes Archmage Eternal's thoughts and advice on our cheapest infantry unit.

Quote:
Spearelves are great for dealing with units with low toughness and low armour, especially other elven infantry. With 15+ S3 attacks with ASF, they can remove the entire front rank of a unit with WS3, T3, and no save, and most of the front rank of units that are marginally tougher. Unfortunately, Spearelves are of limited use against more heavily armoured opponents; I find they have a hard time against anything tougher than a human Spearman. However, a simple Noble with a Great Weapon can help tremendously against tougher, more heavily armoured units, and a nearby BSB will ensure that your unit will not break easily.

Overall, although I do think Spearelves are outclassed by Phoenix Guard in terms of combat resolution production (against most opponents), they do still have a place in a balanced High Elf force.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:55 pm 
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We could post a new topic each week. Spearmen- numbers,uses,etc. Prince- how to equip,etc. Going thru each part of the High Elf army. Members could post their ideas, experiences,how they use them- then we could condense it down to the very best bits.

Each week we could post a thread on tactics vs. a specific foe. High Elves vs. Greenskins, vs. Empire ,etc. Then we could gather members tips, what units are good vs. that enemy,etc. It would also be good if we have a member that also plays the enemy army in question. He would have experience with both. Getting both points of view.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:26 pm 
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There has been monthly tactics in the past, although not that many in 7th ed. Perhaps a rundown on all units so that we have a good FAQ before we go into tactics against specific enemies would be best?

Just tossing out suggestions.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:43 pm 
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I think we should have a topic of the week too. The fact is that before it hasn't worked that well, but I think it could. What if there was a desginated topic co-ordinator, who sets up the topic every monday and then PM's a small group of regular tactics forum posters about it's existence, asking them to please contribute and get the debate flowing.

After a while, that won't be needed as veteran members would be promoting the topic themselves.

While this is happening, someone could archive the topic, getting a solid list of threads about High Elf units which provide tactical advice. They could also produce a summary page, in which points are summarised and the best posts quoted.

I'll happily be the guy who organises the discussion, though I think we'd certainly have to ask the lores for their permission before we get it started. Perhaps they would be so kind as to re-organise the library tactic section to include the archived threads, with the summary included, which could be Telphasion's job as he seems up for it.

Again, it's the lores decision, but it would be a great idea to get a really solid tactics section, as well as a fun project for the Forum.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:43 pm 
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I'm already writing on a Tactics summary, nothing fancy, just the general feeling of above mentioned topics. Such as Phoenix Guard being good anvils, and that Spearmen should never fight unsupported.

What should the topic of the next week be?

Shadow Warriors? They seem to have fallen in the dark, no pun intended, as of late.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:20 pm 
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Spider_wells wrote:
I'll happily be the guy who organises the discussion, though I think we'd certainly have to ask the lores for their permission before we get it started. Perhaps they would be so kind as to re-organise the library tactic section to include the archived threads, with the summary included, which could be Telphasion's job as he seems up for it.


Hold that thought, right there.

I'm currently in the process of redesigning and reprogramming the Library. I'm suffering some rather serious technical set backs at the moment (The whole thing refuses to run), but it's a current project.

Could you expand for me how you'd like the library article to ideally look, what information and other stuff you think it should contain? Don't feel constrained by the current functionality of the library, that's going to be thrown out the window, as we know it's not working.

Because of the sheer annoyance of getting technology to work, and the fact I'm doing this in limited spare time, I give no guarantees of *when*. But I do think I'd like to see these articles work, and I do think they should be somewhere prominent. My immediate thought is if you start now and give me a week I should be able to at least have somewhere for you to construct and display your articles besides the current library.

Quote:
Again, it's the lores decision, but it would be a great idea to get a really solid tactics section, as well as a fun project for the Forum.


Yes, I agree on both counts, both as a Lore and a member.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:09 am 
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Silver Helms: great topic that made me repair and dust off my Silver Helms

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:23 am 
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Well, when your looking at a tactics forum you want to be able to esily access the information your looking for. This means you need a good contents page. possibly a list of tacticsa on each different unit type, with seperate tacticas on styles of play and a High Elf army over-view.

So something like...

Tactica: High Elf overview, how our force feel on the table.

Tactica: Spearmen

Tactica: Archers

Tactica: Lothern Sea Guard

And then when you goon those links you can get the information you want. Again, it needs to be presented in a helpful and simply manner, which makes it easy to find stuff.

TACTICA: SPEARMEN

Summary: Here is a general view on the best ways to utilise spearmen, such as unit size, formations, and role.

Archived Thread: from the tactic of the week thread in the Tactics forum, here our esteemed members give their thoughts in a more detailed manner, discussing how they like to use spearmen and how they fit in with the High Elf army as a whole.

And so on and so forth. hopefully the archived thread would a good solid 3-4 pages long, with lots of information on the subject and lots of discussion about differnt ways of playing etc. Try to keep to the subject but make sure people areaware of simlarities in the list (spearmen are often used as an anvil, so it needs to be made clear that phoenix Guard arguably make a better one).

I think when it comes down to you lores, you have the problem of trying to run the site normally, living your lives and also re-vamp certain parts of the site such as the library. I really think it would make it easier for all involved if you got some veterans posters who can be trusted to do some of the work as regards to the library tc, in order to slacken off your workload and also ensure that the parts whichneed redoing get the attention they deserve

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:35 am 
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Its great to see some of our experienced High Elf Generals get the ball rolling on this.

Moderators- can we maybe get this stickied so others can see this & contribute?

Many thanks to all for sharing their knowledge & expertise!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:35 pm 
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Burning Sun- What about just creating a forum called articles where only the moderator can post things. They could then be in charge of moving the topics to the article forum.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:27 pm 
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Because I'm actually working on something far more useful, and various other projects to improve the site. There is more to this then just replacing the Library, I'm trying to work on getting the whole front end of the site to be a useful and expandable resource that Loremasters can use long after I move on.

However I'm having a couple of problems with the technologies, and a small problem of losing a couple of days coding to other things, so it's all still in the pipeline.

Even if the whole project fails epically, I will still be replacing the library with something more useful and usable.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:03 pm 
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Need any help in regards to articles? As in who to send them to, what to do them on, etc etc etc. Do you have any threads in mind for us to talk about, or do you think thats something we should do anyway?

Just trying to help!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Spider_wells wrote:
Need any help in regards to articles?


Personally, I don't play Warhammer, so will be expecting others to provide articles anyway. I'll probably dump this on Ediblespread.

Quote:
As in who to send them to, what to do them on, etc etc etc.


With a little luck, I should be able to create an automated system to allow people to contribute to the new library. Exact details will be sorted out once it's working. If you're starting to write stuff now, the best format to write it in is HTML. Smilies won't work, but it'll be able to include pictures and most other HTML based stuff.

Quote:
Do you have any threads in mind for us to talk about, or do you think thats something we should do anyway?


See above point about not playing. Although as I suspect most of the Lore's will tell you, anything that's up to date is good. If you feel there's something that's worth contributing, then be welcome to write an article on it.

As I say, give me a week and I should have a solution. It may not be the one I'm planning, but it'll be *a* solution

Quote:
Just trying to help!


All help gratefully received! I just need a little time.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:42 am 
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I think for temporary use till the library opens up we can have a sticky using subheadings of Telephalsion, and just have a locked thread where one person (volunteer) continues to post links to other threads that contain information they need...


Example:


Spearmen: (post link)

Shadow Warriors: (post link)

Noble on MOunt: (post link) + (another link also good)


Get the idea a bit??? Till the library jumps up



EDIT: Shouldn't this be moved to Ideas forum for the mean time?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:29 pm 
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I've been busy lately, unfortunately, but I haven't forgotten about the "Tactica Asuryan" If anyone feels that they have any tactical advice they'd want to share, please PM me about it.

I've asked Milliardo if he wants to review/rework his MSU breakdown.
I've asked if Spider_Wells wants to do a similar breakdown on non-MSU, big block elves, for lack of a better term.
There already is a wonderful tactica on the Dragon Mage, courtesy of Arhain.

The Mage-Knight Thread has touched the topic of magic, and I think it's not too much work to use the magic-tactics in that thread to come up with coherent tactics for "proper" mages. Most lores have been discussed already, and I think we all know how to use teclis, but it can still be improved.

So, if you have anythink that you think would prove useful, please send it. Or if it's already present somewhere in the forums link to it.

Cheers

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:12 pm 
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I made some minor corrections and bolded the names of units. If someone wants to rewrite or expand on what I've written, that's fine with me.

Quote:
Here's a quick breakdown, at least as I see it.

White Lions: 7 to about 12. White Lions function well in an MSU role because in small units they can hide more easily in wooded terrain. They don't have the sheer amount of attacks as Swordmasters, but with Stubborn and the increased save versus missile fire, they can work a bit more independently, and are good at flank charges to deny rank bonus. 12 is about as large I'd field them and still call them MSU, and is about what I find ideal.

Swordmasters: 6 to 12. I field these in even smaller numbers than the White Lions because they're potentially so devastating, yet because they're the easiest elite infantry to kill they need to be hidden from missile fire until they can be of use. This means that its hard to hike them across the battlefield in small numbers, and so they fit in better with a defensive force. Hide them behind terrain and larger blocks. Even if they lose a model or two to missile fire and can no longer remove rank bonus, the amount of kills they can generate is still very useful.

Phoenix Guard: 12+. I don't believe these work well in an MSU role. They don't have the high strength attacks of the White Lions or the amount of attacks the Swordmasters bring, and so need a combat lord to compensate. The only advantages of small units is that they won't be autobroken by fear causers and they can make missile screens while you advance.

Shadow Warriors: Also useful in smaller numbers. If you try to put too many in a unit, finding a piece of terrain large enough to hide them becomes difficult, and they'll have trouble slipping through gaps in your enemies deployment when hunting for warmachines and archers.

Cavalry: All elven cavalry is useful in an MSU role, particularly Dragon Princes. Silver Helms are really the only unit I would try to field in larger numbers, and much like Shadow Warriors, Reaver Knights work have worked best for me when in small, easily maneuverable units that can take full advantage of terrain to hide while moving.

Core Troops: Spearmen are right out for me. I'd never field a unit less than 15, because for me they're in the list to provide numbers and wounds. They really can only be expected to perform well in larger numbers with a combat hero or lord, and putting a hero in an MSU unit is dangerous.
Archers work best in 10-12 elf units, again so they can take advantage of hills and actually fit on them. Larger units of archers are expensive and fragile.
Seaguard are really the only core that comes close to MSU. They've worked very well for me in units of 10-12 working as RBT and Archer guardians, or as flank guards for larger units of ranked infantry, where they can harass enemy with short-range bowfire, picking off a few models here and there and removing rank bonus with flank charges.

High Elves aren't as good as Wood Elves at a true MSU build, but benefit from a mixed build. Having one or two main battle units with four or five MSU units works really well for me. I hope that helps you get started or confirms some thoughts...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:47 pm 
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I dug up PapaElf's old tactica topics:
Tactics, Part 1. --- Maneuver: viewtopic.php?t=22946

Tactics, Part 2. --- Playing Damage Interdictors: viewtopic.php?t=22984

Tactics, Part 3. --- Melee, Magic, and Psychology Issues: viewtopic.php?t=23031

Tactics, Part 4. --- Determine Your Army's Strategic Purpose: viewtopic.php?t=23074

Tactics, Part 5. --- How to Outmaneuver the Enemy: viewtopic.php?t=23102

Tactics, Part 6. --- Maneuver after Deployment: viewtopic.php?t=23158

They're a good read, I assure you.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:18 pm 
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Myself, as a new HE player, am in a great need of good tacticas - and I believe there are many players here that need help, even more experienced ones, why not? We should learn something new every day...

We need something like fantastic LEAF articles on asrai.org - they are just perfect, so much usefull informations - people who are familiar with LEAF should know what I am talking (typing :mrgreen: ) about, the others go to the sight and take a look, even if you don't play with Wood elves...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Btw, has anyone seen Papaelf recently at the site?


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