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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:17 pm 
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First off let me say i am recently returned to WFB back from a several year break (played since 3erd ed before that). i have not played HE since the current book was released so i am unfamiliar with it's finer points. What i have done is made up a list as i would like to see it. My concerns revolve around how it will hold up against other armies. I hear everyone is playing at a higher power level than we are. Something that makes little sense to me, elves being an elder race and all. anyway before i get caught in a rant, here is the list.

Elven Prince: Blade if Sea Gold, Golden Shield, Heavy Armour, Barded Steed.
Mage lvl 2, Silver Wand
Mage: lvl 2, Dispell Scroll

20 Spearmen: Full Command
20 Spearmen: Full Command
20 Spearmen: Full COmmand
10 Archers

9 Dragon Princes: Full Command (ride with general)
10 Swordmasters
10 Swordmasters
10 White Lions

Bolt Thrower
Bolt Thrower

Ok so there is the list. i have some immediate changes i want to make, and ill list them. I just wanted to show you the intial list in case you disagree with the changes.

First Change: Drop the Archers for a Blot Thower (for ten less points why not)
Second: Drop second Mage for a BSB in a spearmen unit. (Pick up Annulian Crystal for the remaining mage)


General strategy against most forces will involve Spearmen units holding enemies in melee until a hammer unit can support them. My spearmen would form my battle line with the smaller hammer units staggered behind them (checkerboard). This is a page from the Skaven book, but i think we can do it just as well. when i bounced this idea off another HE player he hated it. He thought ten man units of Sword Masters and White Lions were a waste. He also said that my Spearmen could not stand up to a charge from 90% of the opponents they would face. This concerns me because HE spearmen seem to be decent on paper. Fight in three ranks with ASF, or go sword and board for a 4+ save. none the less he was convinced that the would loose combat and break and run. Now i don't need my Spearmen blocks to win combat i just need them, to stay put. (hence my want to put a BSB right in the middle of them)

Anyway i am just looking for some insight. maybe some past experience and things you have picked up.

Thanks

-Annuar


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Annuar of Lothern wrote:
General strategy against most forces will involve Spearmen units holding enemies in melee .... He also said that my Spearmen could not stand up to a charge from 90% of the opponents they would face.
He is right. Their attacks don't matter, because S3 will do only trivial damage to most targets. If they do manage to hold, the enemy they stick often won't be bothered by a flank charge, because the enemy will still be generating combat resolution by slaughtering spears. Plus some of them will be fleeing because of psychology. Leadership 10 is great, until you realize you'll be testing so many times a game you are bound to fail multiple tests.

The checkerboard pattern doesn't work well for Skaven either. Not anymore. It might keep you from losing, but it won't kill or break the enemy very often. Too many things just don't care about getting flanked, especially if they have something to the front to beat up on.


In general, the 20 spears and 10 archers are reasonable unit sizes (although 4 core units is not a great choice), but your other unit sizes are not so logical. There really is no reason for 10 in the others. Swordmasters don't need rank bonus, and they run 7 or 8 wide to get more in combat. 10 isn't silly for them, but 7 does just as well. And if you go bigger, its worth getting the command and magic items. White Lions don't need rank bonus because they are Stubborn. Except 10 White Lions without a fear protection banner probably aren't even Stubborn, since fear outnumber bypasses Stubborn. Buying a rank for Dragon Princes is prohibitively expensive, and is almost never worthwhile. If you really want ranked cavalry, take Silver Helms, but the only reason to do that is a huge escort for the Battle Banner.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:15 pm 
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i agree with dabber. if you want a solid block for your battleline, i highly suggest phoenix guard. all other elite infantry are pretty much designed to be most effective as a long, single rank.

point for point, our core units are pretty poo compared to other races so i'd say minimize points spent on them. (i just get 20x archers but not everybody is a fan)

if you'd like to take dp/wl/sm units, try building their units as a single rank and see how that works for you. You'd also then have more points to max out those rare slots (which i also highly advise. our rares are awesome)


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:54 pm 
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quick thought going into 8th. From what i have read all units will get to attack with both first and second ranks. that was my motive for the 10 man units of swordmasters and Lions.

as for the cavalry, i agree that is a really expensive second rank. perhaps a 7 wide single rank is best.

so if Spearmen wont cut it as MCUs (even going sword and board) what should i be forming my line with? just Big units of Phoenix Guard?

what do you tend to run for your specials?


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:12 pm 
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I'm a fan of spears, I must say, but I would only ever go with the min number of blocks needed and usually I only go with 1 block of spears and 1 unit of archers. The phoenix guard or white lions are going to be your best holding unit. The PG because they can take a beating, the lions because they are stubborn. Maybe have one of those (with BSB) in between 2 spear blocks to hold your line?

Then you have to back it up with hard and fast hitting on the flanks in my opinion. Best for this will be DP's and Lion Chariots.

Interesting about both ranks fighting going into 8th. But to me that's even more reason to take 14 swordmasters formed up in 2 ranks of 7 -- 28 WS6, S5 attacks sounds good to me.

I don't know if I'd go more than 6 wide on the cav as you can't get much more than that into combat.

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:23 pm 
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dabber wrote:
He is right. Their attacks don't matter, because S3 will do only trivial damage to most targets. If they do manage to hold, the enemy they stick often won't be bothered by a flank charge, because the enemy will still be generating combat resolution by slaughtering spears. Plus some of them will be fleeing because of psychology. Leadership 10 is great, until you realize you'll be testing so many times a game you are bound to fail multiple tests.

The checkerboard pattern doesn't work well for Skaven either. Not anymore. It might keep you from losing, but it won't kill or break the enemy very often. Too many things just don't care about getting flanked, especially if they have something to the front to beat up on.


I'd just like to point out that checkerboaring works reasonably well for Skaven. Of course Skaven can put a 30 model clanrat unit on the board for the cost of 15 spears (or a 20ish slave block for the cost of 5 spears). Skaven go in assuming they'll cause no wounds. They've got ranks, outnumber, a standard. If most of them want to beat something harder than that they need to hit flanks. Also, when the slave unit up front gets ground to a pulp, the Clanrats get to point and laugh rather than take a panic test. Not something the HE have handy.

The fact of the matter is that High Elves cost too much to get huge 3 rank+outnumber blocks. And High Elves have multiple units that can reliably deal damage. Trying to use the same strategies just doesn't make sense. The strength of a High Elf army runs in a different direction than Skaven.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 9:44 pm 
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i wouldn't base any lists on rumors for 8th edition, regardless of how "reliable" the sources might be.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 11:01 pm 
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For anvils, I'd suggest one block of spears with Lions Standard and BSB, plus either Phoenix Guard or White Lions. I don't think you can afford more than two of these and stuff without Fear protection will not stand when the going gets rough. The list also lacks light troops, I'd suggest Eagles and either Shadow Warriors or Reavers.

If running a single defensive Mage, he needs two scrolls. Annullian Crystal is good but as a back up to scrolls, not an alternative IMHO. TBH though I wouldn't trust a caddy against the phases out there, especially in an infantry list. We have tools to construct a rather sharp medium magic phase, going purely defensive is unnecessary.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Annuar of Lothern wrote:
as for the cavalry, i agree that is a really expensive second rank. perhaps a 7 wide single rank is best.


Nah, Currently DP's are awesome. However they are that awesome you don't need to buy to many. I always run 2 Units of 6. Give them a banner bearer with War banner and they will run through most things.

Elves need to be smash and grab now. Spears can't do that, and certainly can not hold a line any more.

If you want an anvil use PG's or WL's (PG's ward save, static res, fear causing etc - for the win) but you must flank charge the enemy. they auto break, they die.

Its a bit of a cliche on these forums, but use as many rare choices as possible too

Annuar of Lothern wrote:
quick thought going into 8th. From what i have read...


If you own the models already, forget about 8th until it comes out, it'll take months for everyone to get it.
If you are buying the models, then wait. There should be new LSG's coming out and you may regret not buying them if you buy spears now.

Either way, welcome back. there's loads of stuff on here to help - have a good root around
Good Luck

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 11:59 pm 
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Brian Mage wrote:
Nah, Currently DP's are awesome. However they are that awesome you don't need to buy to many. I always run 2 Units of 6. Give them a banner bearer with War banner and they will run through most things.

Elves need to be smash and grab now. Spears can't do that, and certainly can not hold a line any more.

Ok in the absence of Lord Anathir I will take up the cudgels here!

DP's are good troops and worth including. Like all our cavalry though, they can be fragile, even with a 2+ Save. Serious magic or shooting can wreck a unit in no time.

A spear block with Lion Std and BSB may not be the strongest choice in the book but it is well playable. It gives you an excellent bunker that can fight in support. The BSB is really important if you intend to run an elite block or two and this is the best place for him. If you only have one block, of elites, you have to be more careful about how you commit it due to the characters it houses. The remote BSB lets you be very aggressive with your elites, which can pin the enemy down.

Of course blocks can be avoided by an enemy who moves fast enough. These blocks though can't be easily swept away, can't be shot to pieces in one round and can do a useful job in the centre of the army. Sure you need lots of other units too (inlcuding DP's probably!) but these have a part to play in a balanced list IMHO.

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