2000pt high elves, competative

[musashi1]

I wondered if you can peruse this and give me some feed back...

Anvil units

Korhil 140

..in..

19 phoenix guard 340
full command
banner of arcane protection

so this unit is stubborn has 4+ ward MR2 and imune to fear with reduce terror

and

Caradryan 175

...in...

13 white lions 270
full command
standard of balance

and this one is stubborn with additional save vs shooting MR3 and immune to psych

So there's two stubborn units whom are immune to fear. Korhil adds some much needed high S sttacks to the phoenix guard and caradryan can go heavy lord level character hunting.

Hammers

5 dragon princes 200
full command
amulet of light
luion standard

immune to fear and magical attacks

white lion chariot 140

5 ellyrion reaver (could possibly be a tiranoc chariot?) 85

Support

10 archers 110

10 archers 110

mage 140
2x dispell scrolls

2X Bolt throwers

1x great eagles

Great eagle to march block/remove warmachines/eek out fanatics etc, bolts and archers to concentrate fire on units i cant hold break and mage for minimal magical defence. I know one scroll caddy isnt alot, but have known other Helf players who have used one to great effect, so thought i would try it out. (MR on my two big units help a little...)

[dabber]

Two stubborn units but no BSB? That is asking for trouble.

The DPs don't need full command to do their job. Maybe if you added war banner the basic banner is worthwhile, but I think 5 with nothing would be better.

Any army based around breakable infantry is fundamentally not highly competitive. Too slow to impact the game, too vulnerable to monsters, magic, and characters ripping them apart. That may be fine, but when you label it as "competitive", I think you are greatly overestimating.

[musashi1]

So please enlighten me,l i want to play elves competetively, how can i alter thi list to make it so, without making a carbon copy of every other list out there...

[SpellArcher]

Any army based around breakable infantry is fundamentally not highly competitive. Too slow to impact the game, too vulnerable to monsters, magic, and characters ripping them apart. That may be fine, but when you label it as "competitive", I think you are greatly overestimating.

I've just run a fairly average list in a fairly hard tourney. I found White Lions with the ITP banner and remote BSB did well but that's largely because they wouldn't break. Overall I think dabber is right, such a unit may have a place in a competitive army but it won't win the game for you.

So please enlighten me,l i want to play elves competetively, how can i alter thi list to make it so, without making a carbon copy of every other list out there...

Most of your list looks sound but I really think an infantry list needs a magic phase. The problem is that Korhil and Caradryan, while good picks in themselves, do nothing for magic offense. You do not seem to have enough points left to construct a phase. I'd consider dropping Korhil and the caddy for an Archmage.

[musashi1]

Oh right ok....

I was going for a min max type thing...

Running on MR and scroll caddy to try to shut down the magic phase until i could get into combat (a slight revision of the list, which i will update the above post with has more MR)

I didnt want to go down the average line of prince on dragon or teclis....... are those the only list that work well in tournies??

I realised that my last post seemed a bit sarcastic, that wasn't the idea, i do really want your help to make a good tourny list guys!

[dabber]

I didnt want to go down the average line of prince on dragon or teclis....... are those the only list that work well in tournies??

All depends upon the tournament. In a GW style "bring the pain" event, I see no point in going without Star Dragon or Teclis. Certainly I would expect this style of army to be absolutely gutted there. Just think about fielding this against Teclis or a Star Dragon.
In a more friendly tournament, it would certainly work a lot better. But the basic problem is your ability to hurt the enemy is largely tied up in those two infantry blocks, and there are plenty of somewhat friendly army builds two infantry blocks will have massive trouble defeating.

[Luna Guardian]

Oh no, we have another Musashi! Wasn't one enough?

Alright, back to topic.

First of all, my hat goes off to you for not having a dragon. I admire everyone who plays without one, because using one doesn't take nearly as much skill as it does to play without one. Also, dragons are stupid, slimy and ugly.

Secondly, list your units in the following order:

Lords and Heroes

Core

Special

Rare

This will make it easy for the rest of us to see what you have as a whole a lot better and it's not a jumble. This in turn will make it easier for us to help you out.

Now, a few pointers:

Overall I think dabber is right, such a unit may have a place in a competitive army but it won't win the game for you.

Heresy, don't listen to this! White Lions will be winning you games if you use them correctly. They can take a charge from the best your enemy has to offer in order that you can countercharge with your heavy hitters (as if Strenght 6 ASF attacks weren't heavy enough already...)

Drop the full command from the dragon boys, if you absolutely must field them. Use the points for more White Lions. You should make the White Lion unit as big as possible so they don't end up being wiped out (not likely, but it might happen if your opponent knows what he's doing)

Other than that,it's not a bad list. I wouldn't go to a tournament with it myself, but that's because I obviously have a much different playing style than yours. You should give it a few test runs and see what works and what doesn't.

I bet they multiply by cellular mitosis. I'm on to you, Musashis...

[CrazyCarl]

I think you want Banner of Balance (ITPsych) on the Dragon Princes and the Lion Standard on the White Lions. If the Lions are immune to Psych you lose the option of fleeing with them, and that can be really useful in baiting charges into woods which can effectively take some units out of the game, then you can rally your Lions outside the forest and take them somewhere else.

[SpellArcher]

Heresy, don't listen to this! White Lions will be winning you games if you use them correctly. They can take a charge from the best your enemy has to offer in order that you can countercharge with your heavy hitters (as if Strenght 6 ASF attacks weren't heavy enough already...)

The problem as I see it is that against avoidance lists or big flyers, the Lions have no way of getting into combat. They are useful to lure the enemy in or to pen him back but this is essentially a support role IMHO. Destroying the enemy needs to be done by others.

They can act as woods-baiters but I don't think this makes best use of Stubborn, their prize asset. I think they're best shoved at the enemy and if you need the unit to last more than a couple of combat rounds, Balance is great for several reasons.

[CrazyCarl]

I think the units with Frenzy and Hatred that you're worried about (i.e. high strength things) will go through a unit of non Banner of Balanced White Lions about as quickly as with, and using Lion Standard instead opens up another route of use for them. That said, I do agree that removing Frenzy or Hatred can definitely give you an extra turn or two sometimes.

[SpellArcher]

I think the units with Frenzy and Hatred that you're worried about (i.e. high strength things) will go through a unit of non Banner of Balanced White Lions about as quickly as with, and using Lion Standard instead opens up another route of use for them. That said, I do agree that removing Frenzy or Hatred can definitely give you an extra turn or two sometimes.

White Lions with Balance have the beating of Blood Knights and mine were rock solid at the tourney I've just played. A couple of Panic tests I didn't have to take and they accounted for units of DP's, RBT, Flesh Hounds, Khorne Warriors and laughed off a Dragon charge, as well as not breaking once and generally stopping the enemy cold.

Your way is Ok too though, I guess it depends on the rest of the list.

[musashi1]

Do you think you guys could have a go at drafting up a good competative list, but keeping the "idea" of the above list? Go magic heavy/dragon etc what ever you think it needs