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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:57 pm 
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I'm due to take my army to my new local GW store next Tuesday, in Bristol. The problem is that they typically only play up to 2000 points, so I have to take my favourite 2250 list and painfully hack 250 points out of it. This hurts me and I could do with some cold hard tips on what you'd cut. I've done a first attempt and this is posted below the 2250 list, which is as follows:

Lvl 4 Archmage- Silver Wand, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll- 330pts.
Noble BsB- GW, DA, Reaver Bow, Talisman of Loec- 174pts.
Lvl 2 Mage- Seerstaff, Dispel Scroll -185pts.

19 Spearelves- Full Command, Lion Banner- 221pts (BsB here).
10 Archers- 110pts.

5 Dragon Princes- Standard, Banner of Ellyrion- 185pts.
14 Swordmasters- Full Command, Gem of Courage, Banner of Sorcery- 300pts.
14 White Lions- Full Command, Skeinsliver, Standard of Balance- 310pts.
1 Chariot- 85pts.

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers- 300pts.
1 Great Eagle- 50pts.

Total= 2250pts.

And here's my first attempt at a 2000 equivelant:

Lvl 4 Archmage- Silver Wand, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll- 330pts.
Noble BsB- GW, DA, Reaver Bow, Talisman of Loec- 174pts.
Lvl 2 Mage- Seerstaff, Dispel Scroll -185pts.

19 Spearelves- Standard, Musician- 186pts (BsB here).
10 Archers- 110pts.

5 Dragon Princes- 150pts.
14 Swordmasters- Full Command, Gem of Courage, Banner of Sorcery- 300pts.
10 White Lions- Full Command, Skeinsliver, Lion Banner- 230pts.
1 Chariot- 85pts.

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers- 200pts.
1 Great Eagle- 50pts.

Total= 2000pts.

As I say, this is basically a 2000 equivelant of List 1, but less good. Ugh. Apparently the guys at Bristol GW are pretty good, so I am looking to field an effective list. Any ideas you guys have as to the changes I've made, or what changes you'd make instead, would be greatly massively appreciated indeed.

So, any ideas?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:17 pm 
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GW store to me means no comp and bring the pain, so where is Teclis? Similarly, why the spears?

Alternatively, drop the chariot to bulk up the infantry units slightly.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:37 pm 
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I would suggest dropping your Mage to a level 1 scroll caddy, and to compensate in magic offense replace the scroll on AM with a power stone, perhpas even add another one. The ordeal only loses you 1 power dice (for which you get 1-2 powerstones) for about 50 points. Granted, losing the spell pick is a pain. I dont know if you counsider that crippling to the list, but it crossed my mind.

By the way, a question: have you considered mounting your BsB on your chariot rather than having him sit with Spearmen? if he is with spears, they can only walk 5, or you lose shooting with Reaver. Chariots can't march anyway, so nothing lost here.
I would drop ToL from BsB - usually, the BsB is more important than anything it fights, so sacrificing it with ToL seems odd to me.

Knocking out musicians is never fun, but usually the least horrible option.

Consider splitting SMs to 2 naked units of 7, and putting sorcery elsewhere, or downing them to 10-12 (you are basically going to only attack with the front 7, the back ones are for shooting protection. If using the spearelves to screen them somewhat, you shouldn't notice a difference.)

Hope i helped somewhat,
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:38 pm 
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White_Phoenix wrote:
I would suggest dropping your Mage to a level 1 scroll caddy

I hate to say it but I'd consider dropping him entirely and sticking a second scroll on your Archmage.

White_Phoenix wrote:
By the way, a question: have you considered mounting your BsB on your chariot rather than having him sit with Spearmen? if he is with spears, they can only walk 5, or you lose shooting with Reaver. Chariots can't march anyway, so nothing lost here.
I would drop ToL from BsB - usually, the BsB is more important than anything it fights, so sacrificing it with ToL seems odd to me.

Disagree with this though. BSB needs to be with the infantry IMHO, much as I love Reaver on a chariot. I'd stick with Loec, it's his best defence I think.

I think your stripped down list is OK too.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:26 am 
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Hmm...

I'd thought about a 2 character version first, since I hate throwing away troops, but I've no experience in the meta-game at 2000 points. Won't I get bitchslapped by magic or other characters, monsters etc?

Dabber, I'm never going to go Teclis or Star Dragon (not that I mind the Dragon so much but I've played them enough), and I always like to have the 3 ranks of a proper block. With the noble the spears make a good unit. It's only 100 points on top of what you'd have to spend on archers anyway but they can have a much bigger impact on the game than 10 archers. I'd also hate to throw away my chariot: it's a very flexible a unit firstly, and secondly it's also the last unit in the army I finished painting and therefore one of the prettiest. I could give that a try, though...

Phoenix, the spears need some attacks to back them up and they complement the noble really well, who gets to ues his fighting ability at Str 6, his ballistic skill and his leadership all at the same time. having him lead a unit is a good use of points. Usually this unit plays defence and doesn't move more than 5" unless it charges. The talisman is also very effective at defence since the noble can chop lots of things in half that might otherwise squash him. Also great for hacking up heavy cav units who might otherwise just run over the spears.

Anyway, here're the 2-character lists I've come up with:

LIST 2

Lvl 4 Archmage- Silver Wand, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll- 350pts.
Noble BsB- GW, DA, Reaver Bow, Talisman of Loec- 174pts.

19 Spearelves- Full Command, Lion Banner- 221pts (BsB here).
10 Archers- 110pts.

5 Dragon Princes- Standard, Banner of Ellyrion- 185pts.
14 Swordmasters- Full Command, Gem of Courage, Banner of Sorcery- 300pts.
14 White Lions- Full Command, Skeinsliver, Standard of Balance- 310pts.

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers- 300pts.
1 Great Eagle- 50pts.

Total= 2000pts.

Keeps everything intact but loses the chariot. I'll struggle to protect my repeaters with this list, and/or I will have lost a charging partner for the spears or DP's.


LIST 3

Lvl 4 Archmage- Silver Wand, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll- 350pts.
Noble BsB- GW, DA, Reaver Bow, Talisman of Loec- 174pts.

19 Spearelves- Standard, Musician, Lion Banner- 221pts (BsB here).
10 Archers- 110pts.

5 Dragon Princes- 150pts.
14 Swordmasters- Full Command, Banner of Sorcery- 290pts.
12 White Lions- Full Command, Skeinsliver, Standard of Balance- 280pts.
1 Chariot- 85pts.

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers- 300pts.
1 Great Eagle- 50pts.

Balances my needs quite well, though I've lost my character-protecting spear champ and Gem of Courage on the swordmasters.

Total= 2000pts.


LIST 4

Lvl 4 Archmage- Silver Wand, Ring of Fury, Dispel Scroll, Dispel Scroll- 350pts.
Noble BsB- GW, DA, Reaver Bow, Talisman of Loec- 174pts.

19 Spearelves- Full Command, Banner of Arcane Protection- 221pts (Archmage and BsB here, AM buggers off after a bit).
10 Archers- 110pts.

5 Dragon Princes- 150pts.
14 Swordmasters- Full Command, Gem of Courage, Banner of Sorcery- 300pts.
12 White Lions- Full Command, Skeinsliver, Lion Banner- 260pts.
1 Chariot- 85pts.

3 Repeater Bolt Throwers- 300pts.
1 Great Eagle- 50pts.

Total= 2000pts.

This partly makes up for the lack of mages with BoAP and gets psych protection back on the swords, but loses the fear immunity on the spears. Lions have been nerfed with their banner swap.



I think that's enough choice! Any more draft lists and I'll go mental. So, which list would you pick then? 1, 2, 3 or 4? As ever, the help is appreciated chaps.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:09 am 
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All right, i think you have too many units over 250+ points. You have exactly 3, counting the spearmen (an the BSB inside). If you do the maths, that is near half your points (750-900) spent on those units. If you need to drop points, the units of 14 can be droped to 13 or 12+character, this will still be good agaisnt panic and save your several points. Another thing you can do is drop one RBT for another eagle, more useful all-around imho specially as you donĀ“t have ellyrion/shadow warriors.

To me your army seems pretty shooty, so if you want to go that way you could change those spearmen for another unit of archers, and put the BSB on the swordmasters. With the points you gain you should be able to add a pair of tiranoc chariots or equip better your other units. I will try and modify it to show you my version of it, very magic/shooty but then i guess that is the way the 2250 list worked.

Archmage lvl4 Seerstaff, Ring of Fury, Scroll
BSB dragon armour, shield, Reaver bow, Loec
10 archers x2 units
3 RBTS
1 eagle
12 white lions full command lion banner
12 swordmasters full command balance banner
6 dragon princes standard saphery banner
Tiranoc chariot x2 units
Total: 1991

You still have got points to play with, the main idea was to drop the spearmen and add archers, as your army is very defensive i think they work better and are cheaper. With those points you can add the chariots and equip better the other units. I personally prefer other kind of army list that rely less on shooting/magic, but i think this can work too. I think the main problem you are having is too many infantry blocks, which are just too expensive for high elves. Between the blocks you had i decided to drop the spearmen because they are the weaker and you gain archers. I hope it may be of some help.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:53 pm 
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Of those, I certainly like list 3 better. The DPs and chariot provide useful expendable units.

I would drop the Skeinsliver. I don't think your drop count is low enough to ensure its value.


Last edited by dabber on Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Ilthaen wrote:
the units of 14 can be droped to 13 or 12+character,

Yes to White Lions, not sure the Swordmasters can lose the bodies though.

Seredain is pretty sold on his three blocks. I also think two is the way to go but his list is harder than mine! The three RBT+Reaver+Skeinsliver is what makes the shooting phase tick, I'm not sure another 10 Archers would make much difference, or substitute properly for an RBT.

The impression I get is that despite the magic/shooting the SM's and DP's get used pretty offensively. They must hit hard, the only issue I can see is waiting for the SM's to get there sometimes.

Seredain wrote:
I'd thought about a 2 character version first, since I hate throwing away troops, but I've no experience in the meta-game at 2000 points. Won't I get bitchslapped by magic or other characters, monsters etc?

Well, you obviously lose magic offense but with the other strengths of your list you should be OK IMHO.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:26 am 
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I actually like the original 2000 pt list. Tweak the Lvl two by dropping him to lvl 1 and losing the seerstaff (i'd just take high magic on him and throw out Drain magic every time which should help make up for any loss in your own magic productivity by lessening your opponent's). With those 65 points, throw in a second eagle and another white lion.

If you choose the 2 character list, I actually liked the look of #4.

Looking forward to hearing the results!

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:36 am 
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Bolt Thrower wrote:
actually like the original 2000 pt list. Tweak the Lvl two by dropping him to lvl 1 and losing the seerstaff (i'd just take high magic on him and throw out Drain magic every time which should help make up for any loss in your own magic productivity by lessening your opponent's). With those 65 points, throw in a second eagle and another white lion.

Ouch! I think level 1's are better than commonly thought but that Drain is only on two dice, I'd be looking to use Shield too. A cheaper way to do it is to stick Radiant Gem on the BSB but then you lose Reaver Bow and Loec which is a big blow.

It's a poser...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:47 pm 
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Great comments everybody.

Ilthaen wrote:
To me your army seems pretty shooty, so if you want to go that way you could change those spearmen for another unit of archers, and put the BSB on the swordmasters.


I liked your draft list. For me 3 blocks is just the way to go, though! I've always felt that, if you're taking infantry, 2 units can sort of be isolated and/or avoided quite easily. 3 powerful combat units together are harder to avoid and they support each other well. Also, as SpellArcher mentioned, I have enough shooting already with RB and 3 RBT's.

Partly I just like the look and feel of spears, but another point to consider is that they are actually a really efficient use of points in an army like mine. Basically, I have to spend 110 points at least on that second core choice. I could spend those points on archers who would probably have very little effect on the game, or I could spend another 100 points and have a unit with static combat res 4/5 and fear immunity, that the noble can make excellent: this is a unit the enemy has to worry about. If you've got an infantry BsB to supply extra kills and CR then I think it's well worth the extra 100 points for such a big difference. Armies without the infantry noble will feel justified going for more archers. Either way the swordmasters can kill enough by themselves I find.

SpellArcher wrote:
Ilthaen wrote:
the units of 14 can be droped to 13 or 12+character

Yes to White Lions, not sure the Swordmasters can lose the bodies though.

The impression I get is that despite the magic/shooting the SM's and DP's get used pretty offensively. They must hit hard, the only issue I can see is waiting for the SM's to get there sometimes.


Yeah, I am aggressive with the swords and DP's. Since I'm usually outnumbered I like to get them killing one flank (after clearing a path with shooting) while I hold up the other with the eagle and white lions. I take swords instead of extra DP's because against some armies (and if you get nice terrain placement), you can go full defence and the swords don't mind taking a charge. I take 14 so that they can take wounds and keep on trucking.

I also often treat the DPs as part of my shooting phase: a big moble missile running up a flank, bashing things and preventing enemy armies getting to my 'base line' intact or on time.

SpellArcher wrote:
A cheaper way to do it is to stick Radiant Gem on the BSB but then you lose Reaver Bow and Loec which is a big blow.

It's a poser...


A poser it is! Actually the first thing I thought of when I dropped down to 2 characters was to put radiant gem on the BsB. It wasn't reaver bow that finally swung it for me (since I could now afford the 3rd repeater), but the talisman: without loec or armour a noble is going to get mashed by a large proportion of enemy fighting-heroes. Also, getting the talisman (and everyone should!) on a model with str 6 attacks (as opposed to a SM champ) makes all the difference in my experience. I'll stick with these 2 characters for the moment then - if my magic phase gets totally bashed then I'll have to revisit this issue or take the 3-character option.

dabber wrote:
I would drop the Skeinsliver. I don't think your drop count is low enough to ensure its value.


That's a good suggestion to be honest. I won't try it yet since the skeinsliver has been a game-winner for me on several occasions but, since I've chosen to keep the chariot, I may have too many drops as you say. That's something I'll revisit once I've played a couple of games.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:46 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
without loec or armour a noble is going to get mashed by a large proportion of enemy fighting-heroes

This is true and means you have to be more defensive with his unit IMHO. You're still getting value with the re-rolls and magic but it means the Spears forming a rearguard I suspect.

Seredain wrote:
getting the talisman (and everyone should!) on a model with str 6 attacks (as opposed to a SM champ) makes all the difference in my experience

It's stuff like 0+ armour saves, isn't it?

Seredain wrote:
That's a good suggestion to be honest.

I guess you can't rely on that first turn vs Dark Elves so much. But you still get the +2 against Skaven and other large armies and I reckon it's worth it to swing the odds a little against small elite enemies, first turn is just handy though you can obviously play without it.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 9:29 am 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
without loec or armour a noble is going to get mashed by a large proportion of enemy fighting-heroes

This is true and means you have to be more defensive with his unit IMHO. You're still getting value with the re-rolls and magic but it means the Spears forming a rearguard I suspect.


Yeah exactly and I'd rather have my boys get dirty and earn their keep. More to the point, if they're sticking their noses out they're covering the other units better and giving the opponent something else to worry about. I don't really have enough units to place something worth 200+ points fully in reserve. I do have the chariot for that, though.

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
getting the talisman (and everyone should!) on a model with str 6 attacks (as opposed to a SM champ) makes all the difference in my experience

It's stuff like 0+ armour saves, isn't it?


Yeah, you need str 6 for those beasts. I had a look at your Scar Vets thread. I usually only run into the mounted BsB version but to reliably kill him you still need talisman of loec with the Str 6. But if he stays alive your noble, rapidly, doesn't.

SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
That's a good suggestion to be honest.

I guess you can't rely on that first turn vs Dark Elves so much. But you still get the +2 against Skaven and other large armies and I reckon it's worth it to swing the odds a little against small elite enemies, first turn is just handy though you can obviously play without it.


That's what I'm thinking - I'll just play on with it and see how it goes. For the moment I think I'm settled on list 3 (though I'm getting paranoid about my swordmasters failing fear tests... eek). I'll post a report up once I've played my first game. Just need to find a camera from somewhere...

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:13 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
I don't really have enough units to place something worth 200+ points fully in reserve

It works for Lord Anathir!

:)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:36 pm 
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SpellArcher wrote:
Seredain wrote:
I don't really have enough units to place something worth 200+ points fully in reserve

It works for Lord Anathir!

:)


Sometimes!

Haha, yeah ok. In truth the spears are always a step or two behind the swords and lions when it comes to entering combat, so they are in fact a reserve in that sense. I do, though, like to keep them close enough to the action so the BsB gives coverage over the other infantry and so they cover the flank of the swords effectively. Also, the BsB has 3 Str 6 attacks and he wants the enemy to worry about these even when he's only using his bow. I have to make do with my chariot acting as a reserve when I need one, and it's so manouvreable that it does it really well. Can you beleive I went for years before ever playing a tiranoc chariot and did so for the first time only last year? Madness. They're great.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Of the 2K versions, I also favour list N#3.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Seredain wrote:
Haha, yeah ok. In truth the spears are always a step or two behind the swords and lions when it comes to entering combat, so they are in fact a reserve in that sense. I do, though, like to keep them close enough to the action so the BsB gives coverage over the other infantry and so they cover the flank of the swords effectively. Also, the BsB has 3 Str 6 attacks and he wants the enemy to worry about these even when he's only using his bow.

In my list they just seemed to engage last all the time so Radiant Gem was a logical step for the BSB.

Seredain wrote:
They're great

Rob Lane was really big on Tiranocs.

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