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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:49 am 
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Prince
The White Sword, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Talisman of Loec
250

Noble
BSB, barded steed, lance, dragon armor, shield, Helm of Fortune, Amulet of Light
178

Mage
Lvl2, Silver Wand, 2 Dispel Scrolls
185

Mage
Lvl2, Seerstaff of Saphery, Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed
197



10 Archers
110

10 Archers
110

15 Phoenix Guard
Standard, Champion, Warbanner
269

13 Swordmasters of Hoeth
FCG, Banner of Sorcery
275

Tyranoc Chariot
85

Lion Chariot
140

5 Dragon Princes
150

RBT
100

RBT
100

Great Eagle
50

Great Eagle
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:59 am 
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Only suggestion is give the PGs BoS and give the SM Lion or SoB. Otherwise they will break easily.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:01 am 
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Its a bit light on combat, you only really have the swords, PG, Lc and the DP as combat units (and even then both the PG and Swords could use character/chariot support). I think another combat unit of some sort is warranted, but i'm not sure how you would get this.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:20 am 
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Thanks for the unput, guys.

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Only suggestion is give the PGs BoS and give the SM Lion or SoB. Otherwise they will break easily.

The warbanner on PG is to make them (usually joined by BSB and/or prince if the need arises) an ultimate stopper unit.
Swordmasters is a bit of a challenge to myself - panic, fear and terror tests I hope to overcome with Ld10 from Prince and if I'm careful with their positioning and supporting them with characters they should never autobreak from combat. A bit risky approach, sure, Lion Standard would go a long way to ensure that one unlucky roll or round of attacks would not ruin my day, but I'm ready to take the gamble.

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I think another combat unit of some sort is warranted, but i'm not sure how you would get this.

Of course, I would love to have another combat unit, but this is it - there is no points for it, unless I weaken other key elements of the army. And, played right my not so numerous combat units are really strong at it.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:39 am 
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If they can't take an enemy unit without the warbanner, the warbanner isn't going to help.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:59 am 
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You mean, warbanner wont help them as much as Lion standard will help Swordmasters?

This is where I disagree. Warbanner increases the effectiveness of my army. It lets my unit do its job better.
Lion Standard is a security measure against bad dice rolls and my mistakes in game.

I prefer the first approach :)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:30 am 
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Which units are you going to willingly take a frontal charge from with the warbanner that you would not have wanted to accept without?
Its a minor insurance measure against units maybe just scraping a draw on combat res. It doesn't do THAT much. The lion standard or banner of balance means you are able to deploy the swordmasters outside of 12" of the general and not worry about the 1/3 of them being rubbish.
Phoenix guard suck anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:53 am 
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Phoenix guard suck anyway.

Ah, why didnt you say that earlier! I would not have bothered then.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:06 pm 
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They really do, there are only a few units that spearmen can't take but PG can, and for about twice the price all told. The problem is that these days winning by one or two isn't enough (this is what phoenix guard tend to do, reduce wounds and win by a couple, and do this for a few rounds) there are too many units that can take the loss on CR and whittle through the guard until they win combat and break them. This is why you need another combat unit, because the guardsmen can't win by enough on their own, they need to take a charge, hold and then recieve support, else they lose and lose horribly.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:16 pm 
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They really do, there are only a few units that spearmen can't take but PG can, and for about twice the price all told.


Thats funny.
OK, take a unit of 15 PG with warbanner (260 pts).
Or a unit of 20 spearmen with warbanner (220 pts).

Chaos knights. Drakenhoff knights. Blood Knights. Big breton lance. Stegadon, saurus cavalry. Flesh hounds with herald. A dragon in the flank. Enough?

Those are units the PG will quite reliably hold, especially when joined by 1+ rerollable AS BSB. Many of those units will be held not for 1 turn but much longer and there is even chance to win a grinding match.

Spearmen will just die.

Phoenix guard, with WS5, ld9, immune to terror tests, immune to autobreak, and 4+ ward save - are worth much more than twice the 9 pts which the total noncence called spear elves cost.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:09 pm 
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And which of the units in the list will the phoenix guard eventually BREAK? winning a round or two of combat just isn't enough these days.

Also of your list: Chaos knights you might beat if there isn't a character (if we add in the unkillable bsb we have to add in an equivalent character for the opponent or at least consider that these points are there). But you aren't THAT certain to, and even if you do, it'll be by 1 or 2, and they may well stand (if there is a BSB around) and then you are losing in the next round. Especially since you always see the warbanner in CK.

Blood knight: don't be ridiculous and take this charge, your unit will die in two rounds and be lucky if they do a single casualty through combat resolution.
Big bret lance: what so they are up on combat res and more likely to kill you than vice versa?
Stegadon: yeh you'll win combat, congratulations... ITS STUBBORN
Flesh hounds with herald: yeh.. again you'll win combat but what willl it do for you? how are you taking the unit down? not just taking the charge?
Saurus Cavalry: you may take the charge, but again, PG will lose the long haul fight, just like spears
A dragon in the flank? ARE YOU HIGH? the dragons you normally see are a DE dragon, whch will kill 3 guard (on average) + flank = 4 CR, your unit has 3 when hit in the flank, your losing from the start and reliably losing every round. or a star dragon, which PG may take but requires you gambling 300 VP's on rolling well on wardsaves...
And again, yes with the BSB, the unit does hold quite a few charges, but the BSB is nails and it probably has a lot to do with that, in which case spearmen would do pretty much the same job (especiallly since if your opponent sees a BSB in spearmen he screams "battle banner" and throws everything at the BSB, who bounces the wounds with his 1+ rr save and good times ensue).

The problem is that most units these days put out enough hurt to keep the PG wary and forces them to rely on well rolled ward saves. And there are very few units where you can turn the slight combat res advantage into VP.

Oh and i'd aso point out that the spearman block costs about 100 points since you have to take a core anyway, and this way you at least get something worthwhile out of it.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:21 am 
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I agree that the figure count is a bit low but you have most bases just about covered IMHO.

I just think it will require good play to win with, it doesn't look very forgiving.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:46 am 
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Using 15 FC warbanner PG with char is not the same thing than using 20 FC war/lionbanner spears with char. PG probably stand longer and can even win fights against dragons and heavy cavalry. WS5, S4 and 4+ ward just function that much better.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Quote:
I just think it will require good play to win with, it doesn't look very forgiving.


I agree and this is what I like the most in the list :)

Quote:
Also of your list: Chaos knights you might beat if there isn't a character (if we add in the unkillable bsb we have to add in an equivalent character for the opponent or at least consider that these points are there). But you aren't THAT certain to, and even if you do, it'll be by 1 or 2, and they may well stand (if there is a BSB around) and then you are losing in the next round. Especially since you always see the warbanner in CK.


15 PG with warbanner cost 250 pts.
5 Knights of say Slanesh with warbanner cost 250 too.
1. 6 ASF attacks do 0.25 wound to knights. Thats one dead knight in the 4th round of combat.
10 attacks from the knights do 2 wounds. Steeds do 0.7 wounds.
2. By wounds knights win by 2.45. Phoenix guard have 2 ranks and outnumber. Knights lose by 0.55.
3. Next round PG are 1 rank down, propbably dont have outnumber (5 dead in 2 rounds of combat) so lose by 1.45
4. Next round they lose by 2.45 (7 left).
5. Next round they finally kill a knight, lose 2 and lose by 2.

The same knights vs 23 Spearmen with FCG and warbanner (252 pts):
1. 16 attacks will do a wound in the second round of combat (doing 0.44 wounds).
Knights and horses do total 7 wounds. Knights win by 2.56, there are 16 spearmen left.
2. Next round spearmen kills a knight and 4 remaining do 5.6 wounds. Spearmen lose by 2.16, 10-11 spears left.
3. Next round knights kills 5 more spears and autobreak the remains.

When my key units usually have Ld10 rerollable for their break tests - yes, I say that the PG will hold good enough against the Chaos Knights. They even win the first round and adding characters will not do much - exalted is more expensive but will not be able to penetrate elf's defences easily.

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Blood knight: don't be ridiculous and take this charge, your unit will die in two rounds and be lucky if they do a single casualty through combat resolution.


For the 250 pts you will be able to take just 4 of them and thats not serious. OK, lets take 5 with a banner (295 pts).
1.6 ASF attacks do 0.5 wounds to Blood knights.
Assuming, they didnt kill a knight, then 5 knights kill 3 phoenix guards and nightmares kill 1.5 more. So, knights have 4.5 kills and banner, phoenix guard have 0.5 kills, 2 ranks, outnumber, banner, warbanner for 5.5. Blood knights lose by 1, lose one of their number and frenzy.
2. Next turn PG kills one more, lose 1.4 to the knights' attacks and crumble the unit totally.

Quote:
Big bret lance: what so they are up on combat res and more likely to kill you than vice versa?

And I will hold them and then hit in the flank. Spearmen will not be able to hold.
Quote:
Stegadon: yeh you'll win combat, congratulations... ITS STUBBORN

Which can be failed given enough tries.

Quote:
Flesh hounds with herald: yeh.. again you'll win combat but what willl it do for you? how are you taking the unit down? not just taking the charge?

By countercharching it may be? Or, just holding enough for my other units to kill his softer stuff while my PG keep the dogs occupied?

Code:
Saurus Cavalry: you may take the charge, but again, PG will lose the long haul fight, just like spears

I'm really tired doing math hammer to prove my point - but no, you're wrong. PG will grind down Saurus Cavalry quite reliably. They do 0.66 wounds to saurus each turn with ASF and those saurus are worse than chaos knights.

Quote:
A dragon in the flank? ARE YOU HIGH? the dragons you normally see are a DE dragon, whch will kill 3 guard (on average) + flank = 4 CR, your unit has 3 when hit in the flank, your losing from the start and reliably losing every round. or a star dragon, which PG may take but requires you gambling 300 VP's on rolling well on wardsaves...

I have a champion on this flank. So, yes, I will lose by one. Do you know many units which will lose by one being hit by the dragon in the flank? And I can have BSB in the unit also. And its not only me risking ward saves - the dragon risks too that I will make more than I should - and it costs much more.

Quote:
And again, yes with the BSB, the unit does hold quite a few charges, but the BSB is nails and it probably has a lot to do with that, in which case spearmen would do pretty much the same job (especiallly since if your opponent sees a BSB in spearmen he screams "battle banner" and throws everything at the BSB, who bounces the wounds with his 1+ rr save and good times ensue).

I believe I showed it, its not only BSB, Phoenix Guard can hold off the most dangerous units in the game quite reliably by themselves (of course being withing 12" of him and the general). And win against some of them in the protracted combat. And spearmen would surely fail the task. And if you put swordmasters or white lions in the equation you will find that in many cases the will fare worse too.

Quote:
The problem is that most units these days put out enough hurt to keep the PG wary and forces them to rely on well rolled ward saves. And there are very few units where you can turn the slight combat res advantage into VP.

And this is why my PG can have BSB nearby or in the unit, or even a Prince. Ld10 with reroll is a good ensurance policy against one or two bad saves. And remember again - it can go both ways - if I do my saves better that usual - its my opponent who is in trouble.

Quote:
Oh and i'd aso point out that the spearman block costs about 100 points since you have to take a core anyway, and this way you at least get something worthwhile out of it.

I'll have my archers do many useful things for these 110 points rather than have them invested in the fragile combat unit I can not rely on.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:14 pm 
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AlexCat wrote:
5 Knights of say Slanesh with warbanner cost 250 too.

The same knights vs 23 Spearmen with FCG and warbanner (252 pts):

When my key units usually have Ld10 rerollable for their break tests - yes, I say that the PG will hold good enough against the Chaos Knights. They even win the first round and adding characters will not do much - exalted is more expensive but will not be able to penetrate elf's defences easily.


First: knights of slaanesh? not khorne, nurgle or undivided (which are all clearly better on knights) it seems you took slaanesh to buff the cost up a little.
Secondly my problem was simply that the Guard wouldn't Grind down an enemy unit as efficiently as that unit ground them down, which you demonstrated above. And there are a lot of units that don't care about Losing on CR (knights do care, but CW aren't a particularly hard army anyway).

Quote:
For the 250 pts you will be able to take just 4 of them and thats not serious. OK, lets take 5 with a banner (295 pts).


We were talking about hard units that an opponent takes.
Spears will beat 4 bloodknights (or should) what do you plan to do the 10 with fc + warbanner that people might actually consider taking instead of wraiths? the only time i've seen someone take a small unit of BK was to down-cheese their list to fit into comp.

Quote:
And I will hold them and then hit in the flank. Spearmen will not be able to hold.


you may hold in the first round, but in consecutive rounds, you are losing consistently since you are less likely to wound and down on combat res, so you are reliant on flanking your opponent with something thats a genuine combat unit, and you don't have any (again we are back to that problem). So you are reliant on your characters to kill anything.


Quote:
Which can be failed given enough tries.

So can your leadership tests, and a steg will eat your characters eventually, and PG just aren't likely to kill one, whereas if spears get the charge or hold the first round, then the spears will bring it down (many many attacks against the very few of the steggie)

Quote:
By countercharching it may be? Or, just holding enough for my other units to kill his softer stuff while my PG keep the dogs occupied?

What are you going to countercharge with? you hardly have any units.

Code:
Saurus Cavalry: you may take the charge, but again, PG will lose the long haul fight, just like spears

Fair point, i may have overestimated SC.

Quote:
I have a champion on this flank. So, yes, I will lose by one. Do you know many units which will lose by one being hit by the dragon in the flank?
And I can have BSB in the unit also. And its not only me risking ward saves - the dragon risks too that I will make more than I should - and it costs much more.

The dragon doesn't risk much though. It needs to really fluff to be under any threat of losing even a single round and if it does fluff, it still has ld10 so it shoul be ok. Whereas if you fluff your wardsaves by a little you have a difficult break test to make (even on a rerolling 8 you have a 1/9 of failing). So the dragon has a good chance of winning. I've done similar tricks using my BSB in a unit and inviting a flank charge, works better with the BSB of course. Again, you are reliant on your characters. Even if you do hold the dragon, what are you going to counter charge with? 5 dp?

Quote:
I believe I showed it, its not only BSB, Phoenix Guard can hold off the most dangerous units in the game quite reliably by themselves (of course being withing 12" of him and the general). And win against some of them in the protracted combat. And spearmen would surely fail the task. And if you put swordmasters or white lions in the equation you will find that in many cases the will fare worse too.


Yes, they hold the first round. that was not the point, the really dangerous units are hard to kill because they don't break, what are you doing against those units? that was the whole point, PG may win, they may even win protracted combats, but they rarely make VP from this, and you don't have enough combat units to flank with. Swordmasters may fare worse against some of the units, but against others they actually kill their opponent, which is a huge benefit. Having the PG also constricts your army, making you play within 12" of both general and BSB and making it hard to deal with multiple threats or protect your shooters.

Quote:
And this is why my PG can have BSB nearby or in the unit, or even a Prince. Ld10 with reroll is a good ensurance policy against one or two bad saves. And remember again - it can go both ways - if I do my saves better that usual - its my opponent who is in trouble.


Your opponent isn't in that much trouble, since he may lose combat, but the really hard units don't care.

Quote:
I'll have my archers do many useful things for these 110 points rather than have them invested in the fragile combat unit I can not rely on.


Don't get me wrong, i love archers, they do a huge job on the table and are often incredibly useful (even if you often end up using them as redirectors in turn 3-5), but don't discount the beneficial effects of a block of spears, who while not as good as PG, swapping a unit of 20 spears with FC + warbanner for your PG would probably buy you an extra unit of swordmasters (a small unit) or even another unit of dragon princes and i'm pretty sure that these two units will do quite a lot compared to the archers + PG you are using.

Your army is also prone to being shot, it is very static. Any army that mildly outshoots/magics you has an obvious pattern: remove the archers and RBTs, then deal with the dragon princes,and you are reliant on the chariots for forcing the enemy into combat (and s5 t4 chariots are not reliable in any way)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:11 pm 
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geoguswrek wrote:
Your army is also prone to being shot

This is often an issue when taking four characters IMHO.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:52 pm 
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Thats a good idea, losing the level from both wizards and a little bit of equipment gives you 80 points, get a few more somewhere and you can get a small unit of swords/DP.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:52 am 
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Quote:
First: knights of slaanesh? not khorne, nurgle or undivided (which are all clearly better on knights) it seems you took slaanesh to buff the cost up a little.

Give them Nurgle all you want, doesnt matter, just makes them more expensive. Khorne knights I do not plan on taking charges from. My goal was to have CK unit with the same cost in this example.

Quote:
Secondly my problem was simply that the Guard wouldn't Grind down an enemy unit as efficiently as that unit ground them down, which you demonstrated above. And there are a lot of units that don't care about Losing on CR (knights do care, but CW aren't a particularly hard army anyway).

So, you want my 250 pts unit to grind down any enemy unit out there? They will do with most of the 250 pts units. Only Chaos knights have grinding power enough to win this match for the same cost. 6-7 Flesh hounds? 7 fully equipped Cold One Knights? Saurus Cavalry? Black or Blood Knights (for the same cost)? Dragon Ogres, Minotaures, Iron Guts? All these units PG will grind down talking about the same cost. When you start talking about units I will not be able to win against such as 10 Blood Knights, Drakenhoff, flesh hounds+ Herald, BIG Breton Lance with chars - you're talking about units which costs more, about 2 times more than PG. Its just common sense that you should not expect your 250 pts unit to win against 500 pts unit. But you can try and hold them where you want them and hit them back with you countercharging elements.

And my whole points about the usefulness of PG was just this - they are the best tool in the HE army for this task. The best reliance to ranged attack, immunity to terror, securance from the fear tests and autobreak, LD9 - everything else is just icing on the cake. You want (it seems to me) them to be able to take charge from any hammer unit and then win. With that approach you wont be satisfied with any unit in the book.

Quote:
So can your leadership tests, and a steg will eat your characters eventually, and PG just aren't likely to kill one, whereas if spears get the charge or hold the first round, then the spears will bring it down (many many attacks against the very few of the steggie)

I dont risk any LD test with PG against stegadon. I dont risk any of my fighter characters being eaten by 4 WS3 Str5 attacks. On the other hand, spear DO risk terror test against the beast unless given Lion Standard, in which case they risk some mildly successful round of steg attacks breaking them. On average steg will cause 6 causalities charing spears. Go figure, your assumptions were wrong.

Quote:
What are you going to countercharge with? you hardly have any units.

I still have unit of dragon princes, unit of swordmasters, bad-ass Prince, 2 chariot, one of them very hard-hitting. Is it not enough for you? Remember, flesh hound units cost about 450 pts while my unit costs 250 and I have one of the best 50pts diverters in the game.

Quote:
The dragon doesn't risk much though. It needs to really fluff to be under any threat of losing even a single round and if it does fluff, it still has ld10 so it shoul be ok. Whereas if you fluff your wardsaves by a little you have a difficult break test to make (even on a rerolling 8 you have a 1/9 of failing). So the dragon has a good chance of winning. I've done similar tricks using my BSB in a unit and inviting a flank charge, works better with the BSB of course. Again, you are reliant on your characters. Even if you do hold the dragon, what are you going to counter charge with? 5 dp?

Again, wrong assumptions and conclusions.
First, DE dragon do on average 3.3 wounds to PG. Its a draw against outnumber, banner, warbanner. So, dragon has got as good a chance to win as to lose. Now, if only I have my characters within 12" of this key combat - I have at least equal chances of holding as the dragon (assuming, he also has BSB nearby, else I have an advantage).
And yes, I can charge it with 5 dp. Or swordmasters. Or 10 archers. Making it flank/rear charge, may be rank bonus - to win even more.
And yes, I'm reliable on my characters to take part in dragon hunt. Are you not? Of course, much easier to get lucky with you shooting but if it fails to bring it down - how do you deal with the dragon when PG is not good for you?

Quote:
Yes, they hold the first round. that was not the point, the really dangerous units are hard to kill because they don't break, what are you doing against those units? that was the whole point, PG may win, they may even win protracted combats, but they rarely make VP from this, and you don't have enough combat units to flank with. Swordmasters may fare worse against some of the units, but against others they actually kill their opponent, which is a huge benefit. Having the PG also constricts your army, making you play within 12" of both general and BSB and making it hard to deal with multiple threats or protect your shooters.

Please, give me an example of really dangerous units costing as much as my PG which I will not be able to grind with them. One except Chaos Knights. Or give me another HE unit that can win on its own against these dangerous units. Then I will admit that I was wrong and PG are really worthless in HE army.
And I dont see how keeping your key units which is standing fast against critical charge within General ans BSB radius - can be considered constricting an army. Normally, PG is the most reliable unit in HE army, being immune to terror, having ld9 and taking little causalities from ranged attacks to cause panic.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, i love archers, they do a huge job on the table and are often incredibly useful (even if you often end up using them as redirectors in turn 3-5), but don't discount the beneficial effects of a block of spears, who while not as good as PG, swapping a unit of 20 spears with FC + warbanner for your PG would probably buy you an extra unit of swordmasters (a small unit) or even another unit of dragon princes and i'm pretty sure that these two units will do quite a lot compared to the archers + PG you are using.

My PG unit cost 250 pts. Archers cost 110. 20 Spearmen with FC and warbanner cost 225. So, swapping my PG and archers for 1 unit of spearelves I will save 135 pts. Buy anything with these points and let us compare whose units look better.

Quote:
Your army is also prone to being shot, it is very static. Any army that mildly outshoots/magics you has an obvious pattern: remove the archers and RBTs, then deal with the dragon princes,and you are reliant on the chariots for forcing the enemy into combat (and s5 t4 chariots are not reliable in any way)

And how many armies (talking about middle power level armies, not tourney WAAC types) will outshoot mine? I think its only Empire and Dwarf and against those armies I have clear advantage in speed and maneouvre.
And I didnt get what made my army static. Two units of infantry?

Quote:
Thats a good idea, losing the level from both wizards and a little bit of equipment gives you 80 points, get a few more somewhere and you can get a small unit of swords/DP.

Wow, screw my atm solid magic phase to scrap some points here and there and get another fragile unit which will not add to my ranged capabilities and weaken my magic defence. What a great advice!

Dont get me wrong, I didnt post the list just to fight any constructive criticism which it will produce. I totally agree that having all four characters eats too much from your army, but I really wanted to have Prince and I dont see then, how I can live without 2 mages and BSB. So, yes, taking archmage would be probably more wise but I just want more LD and glory, just that. The comment about changing banners on units, giving Masters Lion Standard or even Balance was also valuable.
Other things I wanted to discuss:
- magic items for this set of charaters. Are there any better combos?
- I really wanted to have more powerful DP units - 6 with Ellyrion would be much more independant and dangerous. But again - cant find 35-65 pts needed. Any advice?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:17 am 
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So, you want my 250 pts unit to grind down any enemy unit out there? They will do with most of the 250 pts units. Only Chaos knights have grinding power enough to win this match for the same cost. 6-7 Flesh hounds? 7 fully equipped Cold One Knights? Saurus Cavalry? Black or Blood Knights (for the same cost)? Dragon Ogres, Minotaures, Iron Guts? All these units PG will grind down talking about the same cost. When you start talking about units I will not be able to win against such as 10 Blood Knights, Drakenhoff, flesh hounds+ Herald, BIG Breton Lance with chars - you're talking about units which costs more, about 2 times more than PG. Its just common sense that you should not expect your 250 pts unit to win against 500 pts unit. But you can try and hold them where you want them and hit them back with you countercharging elements.


But with 800 ish points in characters (rough estimate), most armies WILL be able to field more points in units than you, and if you plan on putting a character in the PG, then the unit rockets to a massive cost and becomes quite vulnerable, even with the 4 attacks from the character, what do you do against something that CAN go through you? (say a goblin on a chariot?), yes the character is well set up (i like the WS/talisman combo, it works), but it is still an elf, and your unit of PG costs 250 points + character (who seems likely to go in them), meaning the unit is 500 ish points, and will just get avoided by anyone who doesn't have a massive pillar unit to go through them.

Quote:
And my whole points about the usefulness of PG was just this - they are the best tool in the HE army for this task. The best reliance to ranged attack, immunity to terror, securance from the fear tests and autobreak, LD9 - everything else is just icing on the cake. You want (it seems to me) them to be able to take charge from any hammer unit and then win. With that approach you wont be satisfied with any unit in the book.

no, i want them to be able to make some VP agains the units you normally see on the battlefield. Against full combat res units they will only ever win by marginal amounts and will often lose. (by full combat res i'm talking about 3 ranks + warbanner) so won't break them. Against units costing an equal cost they will take so long to grind the enemy down that there will rarely be that many turns in a game (because remember that your opponent doesn't have to charge until you make him, and you only have a 5" move. I merely took the units you claimed you could take (from your list at the start) and asked you to consider them in sizes actually taken, not in sizes that are helpful for point to point comparisons. Else i'll take 15 spears w/ warbanner and compare it to a unit of PG with only a single rank, i'm merely using your own method here.

Quote:
I dont risk any LD test with PG against stegadon. I dont risk any of my fighter characters being eaten by 4 WS3 Str5 attacks. On the other hand, spear DO risk terror test against the beast unless given Lion Standard, in which case they risk some mildly successful round of steg attacks breaking them. On average steg will cause 6 causalities charing spears. Go figure, your assumptions were wrong.

on average, the steg may only cause 3(ish) wounds charging PG (i admit i couldn't be bothered to do any real mathematics so i just took the figure for spears and halved it), but there is the possiblity of it causing many, and you are reliant on lots of 4+ saves to keep you alive, whilst if the steg fails to break you, who cares? its not likely to give away half points in the remains of the game, it'll just sit there rerolling its break tests and holding your pg in combat while the slann blasts your army away.


Quote:
I still have unit of dragon princes, unit of swordmasters, bad-ass Prince, 2 chariot, one of them very hard-hitting. Is it not enough for you? Remember, flesh hound units cost about 450 pts while my unit costs 250 and I have one of the best 50pts diverters in the game.


no, it isn't quite enough for me, partly as an intelligent player will have blocked your countercharges or planned counters of his own (flesh hounds won't break in one round of combat from the units mentioned unless you are lucky), and you won't have the swords or chariots against daemons due to flamers. Flesh hounds don't really need a herald, since a unit into the front of the pg, sans-herald are not particularly likely to go anywhere for quite some while against small numbers of s4 attacks (should lose 1 ound every round, plus maybe 1 from CR if you are lucky, so they should last quite a few rounds, again meaning your PG struggle to make any VP).

Quote:
Again, wrong assumptions and conclusions.
First, DE dragon do on average 3.3 wounds to PG. Its a draw against outnumber, banner, warbanner. So, dragon has got as good a chance to win as to lose. Now, if only I have my characters within 12" of this key combat - I have at least equal chances of holding as the dragon (assuming, he also has BSB nearby, else I have an advantage).

I make it 3.7.. care to share your calculations (ie am i wrong or are you)

Quote:
And yes, I can charge it with 5 dp. Or swordmasters. Or 10 archers. Making it flank/rear charge, may be rank bonus - to win even more.

I wouldn't go in with the archers or swords, they give away quite a bit of CR (because the dragon turns to attack them and does 7 ish wounds if the guy ontop had the CD, a bit less if they were swordmasters). Dp might do it (since they have a 5+ save against s6).

Quote:
And yes, I'm reliable on my characters to take part in dragon hunt. Are you not? Of course, much easier to get lucky with you shooting but if it fails to bring it down - how do you deal with the dragon when PG is not good for you?

With my characters. :lol: but PG don't do the job, since it relies on a player charging the PG with his dragon, which is more lilely looking at archers, bolters, princes etc for kills, and will be making VP (again, it goes back to VP).

Quote:
Please, give me an example of really dangerous units costing as much as my PG which I will not be able to grind with them. One except Chaos Knights. Or give me another HE unit that can win on its own against these dangerous units. Then I will admit that I was wrong and PG are really worthless in HE army.
And I dont see how keeping your key units which is standing fast against critical charge within General ans BSB radius - can be considered constricting an army. Normally, PG is the most reliable unit in HE army, being immune to terror, having ld9 and taking little causalities from ranged attacks to cause panic.

Beasts of nurgle, plaguebearers, hammerers, blackguard, fully ranked skeletons, fully ranked skaven, hellpit, giant, cygor, ghorgon.
The reason it constricts you is it keeps your characters within 12" of the PG if a dangerous charge is threatened, meaning you are forced to play in a 24" circle, so other units can run around you with relative impunity.


Quote:
My PG unit cost 250 pts. Archers cost 110. 20 Spearmen with FC and warbanner cost 225. So, swapping my PG and archers for 1 unit of spearelves I will save 135 pts. Buy anything with these points and let us compare whose units look better.

15 spears with warbanner is what i'd suggest, it only costs 180 and while all it does is supply combat res (and some s3 attacks) it does that pretty well and only costs 70 points over the archers, letting you get another unit of dragon princes or swordmasters, which at least gives you a pair of actually threatening units. No wait, i don't really like that, but you need another unit of dragon princes (which was the essence of the point), lose the LC, for one maybe?
Quote:
And how many armies (talking about middle power level armies, not tourney WAAC types) will outshoot mine? I think its only Empire and Dwarf and against those armies I have clear advantage in speed and maneouvre.
And I didnt get what made my army static. Two units of infantry?


Dark elves, empire, dwarves, some woodelves (depending on how well they warmachine hunt), lizards (because you can't stop the slann), daemons (a single unit of flamers pretty much out shoots you add in any semblance of a magic phase and it certainly does).

Quote:
Wow, screw my atm solid magic phase to scrap some points here and there and get another fragile unit which will not add to my ranged capabilities and weaken my magic defence. What a great advice!

it doesn't hurt your magic defence at all. when playing against an army with magic, spamming a pair of drain magics does nothing, since you get none off until turn 3-4 at the earliest and any sensible player will attack the wizards first (and you haven't really got anywhere to hide them except PG or archers and you don't want them in the pg, they make the PG vulnerable to chargers)

Quote:
Dont get me wrong, I didnt post the list just to fight any constructive criticism which it will produce. I totally agree that having all four characters eats too much from your army, but I really wanted to have Prince and I dont see then, how I can live without 2 mages and BSB. So, yes, taking archmage would be probably more wise but I just want more LD and glory, just that. The comment about changing banners on units, giving Masters Lion Standard or even Balance was also valuable.
Other things I wanted to discuss:
- magic items for this set of charaters. Are there any better combos?
- I really wanted to have more powerful DP units - 6 with Ellyrion would be much more independant and dangerous. But again - cant find 35-65 pts needed. Any advice?

i don't think you can afford 2 level 2's in this army, i think you are best of going the way of anaithir and buying a pair of caddies, since your magic will at the moment only really do a thing against minimum defence. Actually, scrap that, you need the ability to beast cowers or your are done if a dragon hits the table...

umm...

It boils down to the special choices i think. If you lose both chariots you could get another unit of DP (which gives you an extra WM hunter and a unit that can survive shooting, which is your big problem). and then buff them up to 6's, this should tidy up a few problems, but you do lose a unit, which doesn't seem optimal either.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:29 am 
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All right i try and not nitpick too much :mrgreen: I usually play at 2000, so i don´t exactly what is the difference with those 250 extra points, anyhow if it was me it would mean at least 1 unit more and/or character.

Prince
The White Sword, Armor of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Talisman of Loec
250


It is an unorthodox setup, but if it works for you then perfect. Personally i think princes are only worth when carrying some badass combinations of items or when riding a star dragon, preferably both. I don´t see this combo of yours much good, because to be honest i have long ago realised that elven characters sucks at doing herohammer with others, mainly due to how useless WS and I is, and how useful S and T is. Personally i would drop this for an archmage, or find another role for the prince. But as i said if it works for you then just ignore me hehe.

Noble
BSB, barded steed, lance, dragon armor, shield, Helm of Fortune, Amulet of Light
178


I really don´t understand why people put their BSB on horse, i mean, unless this guy is going on the phoenix guard of course. I just can´t figure out character on horse inside infantry units... but whatever, if this guy is going with the cavalry then his potential is wasted (a battle banner would be the best thing). If he is going in a foot unit then you are paying extra for the horse. In general i think BSBs are for infantry, not for cavalry. I use mine on foot with great weapon, armour of caledor + guardian phoenix.

Mage
Lvl2, Silver Wand, 2 Dispel Scrolls
185

Mage
Lvl2, Seerstaff of Saphery, Dispel Scroll, Elven Steed
197


I don´t like these. If you have a prince then you have poor magic, it seems like you are trying to have the best of everything but that is just not possible. Imho the 382 points you are spending on magic are a lot worse than the 350 points of an archmage. Imho a magic phase like the one you have is simply not worth it, i would change them to a lvl1 scroll caddy.


10 Archers
110

10 Archers
110


Good

15 Phoenix Guard
Standard, Champion, Warbanner
269


I don´t like much phoenix guard to be honest, i´m more into white lions, but i can see how this would work. Still keep in mind that you will be depending on the luck of the dices a lot, so they are not very reliable. A stubborn unit on the other hand is more reliable with a BSB to repeat the break test. Another thing that phoenix guard is lacking is combat resolution, if you happen to lose combat for several points you may be doing break tests on 7s/6s with no rerolls (if you bsb is not there), which is not too reliable either. In the end with phoenix guard your only hope is to shrug off enough attacks with your ward save to don´t lose the combat too much. This changes is you add characters inside of course.

13 Swordmasters of Hoeth
FCG, Banner of Sorcery
275


I prefer the banner of sorcery somewhere else, here the enemy is likely to focus missile fire on the unit and get rid of the banner easily. Also your swordmasters are very vulnerable unless they are screened, i guess a archer unit is going to protect them? They are also very vulnerable to phsycology of all types, so they need the general nearby or fear/terror protection.

Tyranoc Chariot
85

Lion Chariot
140


Ok, thought i prefer dragon princes over lion chariots.

5 Dragon Princes
150


Good, but i think you need more cavalry than this, it is just not enough for a balanced army. Your army is way too slow, and you have no banner or anything here to lead an attack. Like you said a ellyrion banner here plus increasing the number to 6 would make this a decent hammer unit.

RBT
100

RBT
100

Great Eagle
50

Great Eagle
50


Good, i like the mixed approach the most when taking the rare choices. It does fit with your idea of being balanced, this usually means capable of adapting to be defensive or offensive depending of the need you have.


Overall i like your army, but i also agree that there are too many characters and if you really want to go balanced, i would recommend replacing the prince with an archmage. If you are bothered with leadership, take the dragon horn on a champion and you will have a turn to reroll all the psychology tests, which is often enough. I think a prince is not the way to go for a balanced setup as the magic phase you get with lvl2 mages is too weak to be offensive. Also i see the prince as the rider of a star dragon and in the moment you do that the rest of the army must adapt to him.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Yeah, Alex, it is clear to me that PG sucks against WL, SM and even SpearElves!
Your magic is also poor - try Dragon Mage to increase your magic power.
I think that gunlines will outshoot you - so swap your archers for LSD or Spears.
Well... sure i was joking.

For the roster what is built on unmounted Prince it is quite competitive one. Such prince (with KB and Loec) will threaten most combat characters in the game (except immune to KB). IMO White Sword, Loec and a lack of defense is the best choice for combat foot prince.

BSB is boring but very effective. Just good tank and +1 to CR)
Quote:
I really don´t understand why people put their BSB on horse, i mean, unless this guy is going on the phoenix guard of course. I just can´t figure out character on horse inside infantry units...

Why PG differs from other HE infantry?)
Quote:
you are paying extra for the horse.

lol)) your are paying for extra armor. +1 save with re-rolls - that is much better than 2+AS and it costs 16 pts. Sure that 1+AS with re-rolls and 5+WS is the more defensive than 1+AS with re-rolls and magic attacks but there are no magic weapon except White Sword, so Amulet of Light is a great deal against VС and WE.
Two 2 level mages and 3 scrolls between them give you nice magic defense. May be you should change seerstaff and scroll on Sigil of Asuran - i like this item very much) Jewel of the Dusk will also works fine - you will have 9 PD on average. That's 3 spells on 3 dice - not easy to dispel. Usually your opponent will run out of his scrolls on 2-3 turn. 2 mages sucks against Archmage when we speak about magic offence but 2 mages give you better defense.
FG is really good - this unit can do things that other HE infantry units cant.
The only thing i will change in this roster are SM. Change Lion chariot on Tyranoc and take 2 units of 5 DP, one with Banner of Sorcery. Or just take one 6 strong unit with BoS and maybe champ and 5 reavers))
Good play test for you, Alex))


Last edited by arrantdunce on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:52 pm 
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I'm not a fan of the four characters but I think they are playable. The way to drop one would be to stick Radiant Gem on the Prince IMHO. Again, I'm not mad about the foot Prince but he can work.

The problem with shooting is not that yours is poor but that enemy with comparable firepower have either numbers or toughness to take losses better IMHO.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Thank you all guys for your comments, I really appreciate them.
I'm taking this list to the incoming tourney and will be back after the weekend to tell how it fared :)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:25 pm 
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When you win it you can come back and tell us how wrong we were!

:)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:40 am 
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So, the tourney is over. I came 3rd in generality out of 34 players.

The list did OK, though, it definitely lacked punch comparing to other top ones.
Well, it was fun, now back to my usual StarDragon boredom :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Well played!

Which armies did you face?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:58 am 
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Faced orcs with not much of wyverns, giants or warmachines at their disposal, but heck of infantry. Played safe, eagles released fanatics, phoenix guard with BSB broke big'uns with Shaga Warlord. 20:0, 10 (max) scenario points

Faced Empire with archlector on horse in 9 inner knights, some knights, 2 cannons, 2 mages, captasus with casket, 2 tanks.
Swordmasters kicked asses of Knnier Circle knights and Lector and proceeded to take out cannon. One tank I shot with RBT and killed in 5 phases. Another was brought down by PG and prince (having taken the charge from it). 20:0, zero scenario points.

Faced Vampires. The guy played for a draw from the start - put 2 units of 25 zombies in line and hid his entire army behind this screen. I didnt want to go offencive myself as it would be too risky and exactly what his was trying to make me do (he's a good player and know me as well). Some magic, miscasts, quarters fightings - and a perfect draw. 10:10, 3 scenario points.

Played wood elves with Treeman ancient, common treeman, 1 unit of dryads and wild riders, 2 units of archers and dancers, 4 treekin, 6 scouts, 2 mages and BSB with HoDD. He had two forests in the middle of the table and each phase put 3 bound and 3 usual Treesinging in moving them. In there were all the heroes, 2 treemen and 2 dancer units. I tried to somehow contain him. Dice were really against me this game and I lost prince and BSB by my own stupidity. 8:12 loss but 10 scenario points.

Played vampires. 3 vampiers and wight with various assortment of melee, magic and buffing trinkets, but no Hoff banner. 2 units of 13 ghouls, 13 skeletons, 6 wolves, 6 black knights, 6 fell bats, varghulf and black coach.
Thу game started really well for me, shooting varghulf to last wound and then baiting him into charge range of both tyranoc and lion chariots. I also caught his Coach (unit which I expected to have the most problems with) with my lone BSB long enough for PG with Prince to catch up. Sadly it was not before BSB was killing blowed. PG went in and my mistake again - I put prince in contact, hoping for a wound or two from his White sword. Instead he got KB to the face too. Two chariots charging could not take the last wound from varghulf and broke! After such a disaster, I felt the game was over, but my Seer mage with 1st and 6th spells in Light thought otherwise. 2 failed dispel attempts vs Cleansing Flare - and I literally blew off almost his entire army. 13:7 win, 10 scenario points.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:05 am 
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It all sounds good, in particular the win over Empire.

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