ETC High Elves -Dragon Lord

[Linkusmax]

Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

Lord On Star Dragon (General) -628 Points
Bow of the Seafarer, Temakador's Gauntlets, Dragon Armour, Lance, Shield

Mage -140 Points
2x Dispel Scrolls

BSB -218 Points
Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Lance, Battle Banner

10 Archers -110 Points

10 Archers -110 Points

5 Silver Helms with Shields -115 Points

5 Silver Helms with Shields -115 Points

5 Dragon Princes -150 Points

Lion Chariot -140 Points

12 White Lions of Chrace -223 Points
Musician, Standard, Lion Standard

2 Great Eagles -100 Points

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers -200 Points

2249 Points Total

[wamphyri101]

I think you list is ok. But why give you main combat monster a ranged bolt thrower. Seems kinda redundent as you want to get him into combat asap. Fair enough if he was on an eagle or something but that means your paying 370 + 65 just for a flying bolt thrower.

Also any reason for the silver helms? Tiranoc chariots would do a better job if you have them (or more dragon princes!)

So what is the plan for your army? whats the tactics your planning. I can understand fireing your dragon down a flank with all the cavelry fair enough but you will want more combat res on your dragon princes in case you get tarpitted by undead/daemons (so + banner + warbanner with your dragon princes...added with your battle banner bsb = minimum of +4 before kills + banner roll) That would give you 2 hammer units with support from charriot/silver helms.

White lions would be better in support of the archers/bolt throwers in case the enemy goes after them

[Linkusmax]

I think you list is ok. But why give you main combat monster a ranged bolt thrower. Seems kinda redundent as you want to get him into combat asap. Fair enough if he was on an eagle or something but that means your paying 370 + 65 just for a flying bolt thrower.

The idea is I suppose that I don't have to commit to combat to be getting use out of it. I can use the fire breath and the bow on turns when I am not in combat.

Also any reason for the silver helms? Tiranoc chariots would do a better job if you have them (or more dragon princes!)

They are cheap and more resilient than Tiranoc chariots and are more reliable. It may be worthwhile to witch one of them like you suggest though.

So what is the plan for your army? whats the tactics your planning. I can understand fireing your dragon down a flank with all the cavelry fair enough but you will want more combat res on your dragon princes in case you get tarpitted by undead/daemons (so + banner + warbanner with your dragon princes...added with your battle banner bsb = minimum of +4 before kills + banner roll) That would give you 2 hammer units with support from charriot/silver helms.

Ideally The Lion chariot and Dragon Princes will flank to support the Dragon and the Silver Helms will be used to clean up smaller stuff/war machines. The only concern I have with getting a banner for the DP is it is a hell of a lot of points Is it worthwhile to drop one of the SH for a TC and grab a muso + standard? (No war banner). Dropping an Eagle on top of that will get me and extra Knight + war banner but again I'm not sure.

White lions would be better in support of the archers/bolt throwers in case the enemy goes after them

depending on the terrain I agree, sometimes they maybe be useful to use their stubborn to pin enemy units for the Cav/Dragon.

[Ilthaen]

I also agree that the seafarer bow on the star dragon prince is not a good idea. It is a conflict of interests, you want your dragon in melee, but your prince out of combat to shoot his bow, in the end, if you use your dragon like he is meant to (make it reach combat quickly) then you will only shoot the bow for like 2 turns at most. I would equip the prince to go in combat an either equip him for all attack (this is the way i like) or either protect the prince with a good armour and ward save.

Like wamphyri101 said it is a good idea as well to combine the BSB with the battle banner with a unit of dragon princes wearing the warbanner, that will give you a cavalry unit able of breaking many units from the front. And as you have a dragon, thus you will be lacking in unit numbers compared to other armies, i think it is a good idea to have such a unit. You could also give a dragon prince champion (either this unit or other one) the amulet of ligth, as you have no magic you need something with magic attacks. In a list like yours i would also give other unit of dragon princes the ellyrion banner for good positioning and getting flank charges more easily.

I personally think the silver helms are the worst unit in the book (at least the spearmen/archer bring something other units can´t do better) and compared to the dragon princes they are very outclassed. If you want to keep them i would make them as cheap as possible and use them to look for flank charges. Otherwise i would use lion chariots/dragon princes instead.

I don´t like much the white lions in a list like yours because i feel they will be left behind and do very little, while your BSB is away smashing things. I´d scrap them and focus on making the rest of the list fast enough to follow up with the dragon/princes and strike at roughly the same time with all your forces. You lack magic defense and have a dragon, so that is anyway what you want to do. The dragon alone or the BSB unit alone are not going to win agaisnt the enemy army, that is why i think you need more fast units. I´d even replace the bolt throwers for more eagles, but that is more a personal taste than anything, i can see how those bolt throwers can be useful.

[yellowcommissar]

I like your list a lot. Seafarer Bow on the Dragon Lord actually works great. 2 or 3 shots from it will easily earn back the 60 points. Of course you want to charge with the Dragon, but what does your Prince do on the turns you are setting up those charges? Shoot! Now you can get those enemy flyers that won't hold still for a charge from your Dragon.

Silver Helms still work fine. No they aren't optimal, but I agree, they are more surviveable than chariots.

You could drop one unit of Helms to upgrade your DPs with a banner. As already said, Ellyrion is useful as is Balance. Still at 150 points they are cheap.

Interesting list. I often use very similar armies with success.

[dabber]

The biggest problem with the bow on the dragon is the basic shooting rules. All parts of a unit must shoot the same target. So the dragon breath and bow shot are required to be at the same target. Typically you want to shoot knights and monsters with the bow, but have no desire to shoot those with the breath weapon.

[SpellArcher]

I think the issue with the Bow is not getting it's points back or keeping out of combat so much, it's the inability to then take Vambraces.

So you have to be a lot more careful about what you allow to shoot you and about engaging powerful enemy fighters.

[Ulanth]

have you thought about 2 different options....
1 take your star dragon but give your prince the Reaver bow and vambraces. You gain a 4+ ward save, re-roll your 4+AS and get 3 Str 5 shots. Not the same as a bolt thrower but they can be very nasty

Or keep your lord as he is but take the cheaper sun dragon and use him to cause terror agianst your enemies while hitting him with another bolt thrower. The 140pts saved could get you another unit or beef up your current ones.

[PGP]

The biggest problem with the bow on the dragon is the basic shooting rules. All parts of a unit must shoot the same target. So the dragon breath and bow shot are required to be at the same target.

Is there somekind of FAQ from this. The rule would be clear, if both were ballistic skill weapons, but the other is an area weapon (or non BS-weapon). Well I could say that I'm shooting the knights 20" away with the breath, I just place the template so that the infantry block near get all the hits. (Was the dragon breath rule so that, you can place the breath template how you like as long as it touch the models mouth or near the mouth). If I remember correctly, the steam tank has no problems with the repeating pistol and cannon (probably said so in the army book).

edit: Yes one comment on the rider, why not use guardian phoenix and enc.shield with it.

[yellowcommissar]

Is there somekind of FAQ from this. The rule would be clear, if both were ballistic skill weapons, but the other is an area weapon (or non BS-weapon). Well I could say that I'm shooting the knights 20" away with the breath, I just place the template so that the infantry block near get all the hits. (Was the dragon breath rule so that, you can place the breath template how you like as long as it touch the models mouth or near the mouth). If I remember correctly, the steam tank has no problems with the repeating pistol and cannon (probably said so in the army book).

Line of Sight rules pg.26 read clear. Has nothing to do with BS.

Last edition units could split fire but not now.

I looked for some exception for quite some time when 7th came out as Seafarer Lord on Dragon has been one of my favorite units since 6th. Alas there is no exception from the shooting rules for breath weapons other than those listed on pg.94.

I've considered using the Dragons breath to hit a unit between the Dragon and the Lords target. Range rules on pg 26 would prohibit any shooting that is out of range, plus it seems awful gamey to be shooting units not targeted. Reminds me of deliberately over guessing cannons and what not.

The argument that the Breath Weapon is not normal shooting doesn't really hold any water either as the FAQ part 2 addresses a Breath Weapon question by refering to it as just another "ranged attack".

Steam Tank Engineer has an exception noted in the Steam Tank rules.

I've found that it is not a big deal. I just find the optimal target (whether it is for the Breath of the Bow) and fire both at it. I still find the Bow versatile and effective. I played a game last week and was able to finish off a Jabberslythe with the Bow that I would never have been able to get to otherwise. Sure, I didn't breathe fire, but I also set up the game winning rear charge on frenzied minotaurs that I was baiting with an Eagle simultaneously.

Seafarer Bow Lord may not be the most optimal build in the list, but I find it fits my playstyle and is very effective. It allows me to be a bit patient with my Dragon. I play pretty aggressive anyway, so I have no problem getting it into combat. I find that only 2 charges can be enough for a victory with the addition of the Seafarer Bow taking down big things and characters.

Now I realize I don't play in the same environments as you may find at ETC, so I can't say how well this character can perform there. Sure is fun to play though.

[PGP]

Range rules on pg 26 would prohibit any shooting that is out of range

But has the breath weapon range? If I remember correctly, breath has a model attached template not range (Is there somewhere said that the range of breath weapon is...). If I don't have a range, I can shoot it always and If I can place it how I like attached to mouth of dragon, I can shoot with prince knights 20" away and same time breath near infantry. This is basically the same thing that I was using different targets. Well you could say that breath has a range of 0", but the range rules profibit then any shooting. Well you can also say that the range of breath is, when the template is not touching the unit I'm shooting, but in my opinnion that is not the range of shooting, but the range of template. Somekind of compromise could be that I must breath to the direction of knights, but it breaks the rule of breath template attachment. I'm sticking with the theory of breathing knights, but placing the template so that it does not touch the knights.

Well, if there are somekind of rules that do not allow those 'ridiculous' line-of-sight over or undershots, the same target theory probably has ground. I think ETC has that kind of rules.