New High Elf Player in a 1750 Tournament. Need some help.

[Hawkeye0111]

Hey There! I am a first time poster, long time reader. I am coming to you asking for help from the pros of the High Elves. Hopefully I follow all of the rules and guidelines that the forum requires. If the List needs to be easier to read, please let me know and I will reformat it to specify your needs.

Total Points used: 1726pts
Unused points: 24pts

Heros: 523pts

Mage: Level 2 197pts
- Seer Staff
- Silver wand
- Amulet of Protection
-Elven Stead

Mage: Level 2 185pts
- Silver Wand
- Dispel Scroll X2

Noble 141
-White Sword
- Talisman of Loec
-Dragon Armor

Core: 333pts

Archers x10 120pts
Champion

LSG x16 213pts
Champion
Musician
BSB

Special: 650pts

Sword Masters x10 205pts
Champion
Musician
BSB
-Lion Standard

Phoenix Guard x10 230pts
Champion
Musician
BSB
-Banner of Sorcery

Dragon Princes x5 215pts
Champion
Musician
BSB
-Banner of Ellaryion

Rare: 200
Repeater Bolt Thrower x2 200pts

Here are some Questions that I have.
1. Are the banners that I am using for my Special core effective at all?
2. I am not sure honestly on what magical items to use for the mages. What items would be better to use?
3. Should I used LSG or regular spearman core? Do I need more archers?
4. Should I use Dragon Princes?
5.As for magic, should I at least bring 1 high magic and another anti-army specific magic?
6. Should I change my Noble to a BSB? Also what banner would be effective?

Some of my opponents that I could be facing are:
- Warriors of Chaos
- Dark Elves
- Skaven
- Bretonnia
- Tomb Kings
- Vampire Counts
- Wood Elves

If there are any rules that I am breaking please let me know. Like I said, I am still very new to Warhammer Fantasy. Thank you again for any help.
-Hawkeye

[dabber]

As is common with newer players, you seem to be making individual choices that make some sense, but you are also buying every possible upgrade. Most importantly, the overall army does not look like it is built together. What is the purpose of each unit are you selecting in the context of the army? Why is that purpose necessary, and why does that choice accomplish it better than other options?
You also look like you are tied to box sizes. While understandable, what comes in a box has no connection to what makes sense on the table.

More specifically ...

Mage: Level 2 197pts
- Seer Staff, - Silver wand, - Amulet of Protection
-Elven Stead

Two arcane items is illegal. The horse and the 6+ ward save do not improve him in any way. If your wimpy Mage is getting hit, the 6+ ward save won't save him. Otherwise this guy is fine.

Mage: Level 2 185pts
- Silver Wand
- Dispel Scroll X2

Reasonable build, and fits with the Banner of Sorcery.

Noble 141
-White Sword - Talisman of Loec
-Dragon Armor

Decent noble, but where does he go? And why isn't he a BSB?

Core: 333pts

That point total indicates the problem with your core immediately. Many 2250 lists don't take that much. HE core is strictly surpassed, even on a points basis, by the elite units. Min core = max core.

Archers x10 120pts
Champion

Archers are always a 110 pt unit. The champion (or any upgrade for that matter) does not increase their effectiveness.

LSG x16 213pts

Why size 16? In general, LSG are a difficult unit to use. They want to be wide to be able to shoot, but narrow to be able to fight. If you are new, stick with a unit of archers to meet min core and move onto something more useful.

Sword Masters x10 205pts
Champion, Musician, BSB
-Lion Standard

"BSB" means army battle standard, which is a character. A unit standard is just a standard.
Why size 10? If you are going to invest in the command group and magic banner, I suggest a few more bodies as shooting protection. Understand that Swordmasters are typically deployed 7 or even 8 wide. They are not trying to get rank bonus.

Phoenix Guard x10 230pts
Champion, Musician, BSB
-Banner of Sorcery

Besides the LSG, this is the unit with the most glaring lack of purpose. Unlike Swordmasters, the entire contribution of PG in combat is rank bonus. Yet this unit has only 1 rank bonus, and will be outnumbered by nearly everything. Which means they break and run if they get in combat. If you only want them to carry the Banner of Sorcery, they can live without the rest of the command group and maybe have even fewer numbers. Or you need more of them.

Dragon Princes x5 215pts
Champion, Musician, BSB
-Banner of Ellaryion

Reasonable choice, but most would live without the champion and musician. Certainly I would field another Dragon Prince before those upgrades.

2. I am not sure honestly on what magical items to use for the mages. What items would be better to use?

You have good choices. The other main candidate is the Ring of Fury.

3. Should I used LSG or regular spearman core? Do I need more archers?

As above, neither.

4. Should I use Dragon Princes?

Definitely! I like 150 pt units personally. Cheap enough to be sacrificed, but powerful enough to create some threat. Of course larger numbers and/or magic banners are nice too.

5.As for magic, should I at least bring 1 high magic and another anti-army specific magic?

Decide upon lore when you see each individual enemy army. In general, High Magic is mainly useful against VC or when you really want Flames of the Phoenix. And Flames is not easy to get off with a level 2, so it isn't that great a choice.

6. Should I change my Noble to a BSB? Also what banner would be effective?

Yes, but you should not give him a magic banner.

[Hawkeye0111]

Hey thanks! Yeah... Sorry for my terrilbe list.

For my mounted Mage I made a change to give him ring of fury with a silver wand.

My noble was gonna be with the sword masters. You are sugguesting that I change him to a bsb with just the regular banner? I think that would be a better plan.

For my pheonix guards I was planning to have them hold my un-mounted Mage with them to protect him. Would you sugguest a group of 20?

I am planning on changing my swordmasters to 20 instead of 10.

Another change that I will be doing is getting rid of the champions and musicians in the special groups.

I will post a new list later but I can't right because I am using my iPhone to post this right now. So if any grammar mistakes pop up, that is probably why. Thanks for the input. Any help is awesome!
-hawkeye

[dabber]

I am planning on changing my swordmasters to 20 instead of 10.

As with size 10, why size 20? 20 makes some sense for the PG because that provides maximum rank bonus. Why do you want 20 for the Swordmasters?

Another change that I will be doing is getting rid of the champions and musicians in the special groups.

Not necessarily a good idea. Those are useful things, when the purpose of the unit benefits from them. Especially relative to their cost. The champion and musician equal the cost of an entire Dragon Prince. When you only have 5 DPs, the 6th one is almost certainly better than the champion plus musician. If you have 20 Phoenix Guard, the champion and musician are relatively a lot more significant than one more PG.

[Hawkeye0111]

Yeah sorry I should also mention I am new to Fantasy Warhammer as well haha. So I am still learning all of the rules still.

As far as Sword Masters, what is typically a good amount of units you should take? Do you take a full command or just Standard Bearer? Would 14 be a good a choice with 7 files and 2 ranks?

I am still learning. I'm coming from playing 40K to Fantasy and it is a HUGE difference. I appreciate any help. I will write up a more revised version of my list and post it.

[Ilthaen]

Don´t worry about being new to fantasy, i never played 40k myself but i can easily imagine the kind of trashing i would get should i try to make a list for that game hehe

You are right about swordmasters, they work best in a frontal of 7 miniatures wide, with champion. This way you can unleash on the enemy a lot of attacks should he dares to charge you. The unit can be of 7, 14, or even 21, as you like. Only thing to keep in mind is the point cost (you want your units not too expensive, so if you lose them it is not game over) and that the 7 size unit will need something in front to protect them from enemy missiles. A shadow warrior unit is the best screen, but an archer unit of 10 is also good. From 14 size onward, it is a good idea to include standard and musician as well, as for the magic banners for swordmasters i think the best is either the banner of balance (allows your unit to deal better with the hard hitting units of dark elves, khorne units, plague monks etc.) or the banner of saphery if you don´t have it already on other unit.

I will try to answer your questions as well.

1. Are the banners that I am using for my Special core effective at all?

Phoenix guard with the banner of Saphery, yes it is a good idea.
Dragon princes with the ellyrion banner, yes great idea as well.
Swordmasters with lion banner, not a bad idea. But the banner of balance is better if you can afford the points.
If you want to use the lothern sea guard, give them the war banner.

2. I am not sure honestly on what magical items to use for the mages. What items would be better to use?

At this point level, your magic won´t be as decisive as if you had an archmage. Think of the mages as support for the rest of the army, and build them like that. I would recommend the mage you already have (seerstaff + dispel scroll) and give the other mage the ring of fury + silver wand. Or if you are cheap like me, give the ring of fury to a noble. But then don´t complain about bad magic defense, this setup with only one mage almost require you to pick high magic and cast dispel magic to protect yourself when you need it. You will have 4 power dices to use with your mage + 1d3 of the saphery banner, that is 5 dices minimun, 2 for a weak spell (i like how weak is the curse of arrow attractions thought xD) and 3 for a more dangerous spell, like draing magic. Normally a good order is to first use the bound spell (ring of fury), then other 2 spells as you see fit, the objective is to make the enemy use all his scrolls quickly. It is a good idea as well to pick a ranged spell and a close range spell, so you can use for the first turns the ranged one and later when the enemy is over you, you can cast something like courage of aenarion. It is not a great magic phase but it is relatively cheap and effective, as i said only as support not to rely on it. If you want to go magic heavy then 2 mages are pretty much required, with the already mentioned equipment.


3. Should I used LSG or regular spearman core? Do I need more archers?

I also recommend to use basic spearmen instead of lothern sea guard, but try to keep them in nice big numbers for maximun effect (25 is ideal, but costly. Less than 20 is few). Otherwise, if you don´t want to spend so many points on spearmen, pick a archer unit and you are good to go.

4. Should I use Dragon Princes?

Yes, they are awesome. Hit hard and fast, do not go down with easy, and are perfect to guard the saphery banner or make the most use of the ellyrion banner.

5.As for magic, should I at least bring 1 high magic and another anti-army specific magic?

That is a very situational decision, but yes overall i would always pick high magic with at least one mage. Dispel magic is just too good not to use it, specially considering how vulnerable our units are to enemy magic.

6. Should I change my Noble to a BSB? Also what banner would be effective?

A BSB should not normally carry any magic banner, the only exception is if you mount him on barded elf steed and make him join a dragon prince unit. Then you could give him the battle banner (the one of 80 points) your unit will be quite more unstoppable at the charge. Anyway i don´ think it is worth at this point level, so i also recommend don´t giving him any banner but instead giving him some good protection like the armour of caledor if he is on foot.

I hope i have been of some help, thought the more important things have been already said. Feel free to ask any questions you may still have. Cheers.