First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

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Ptolemy
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First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#1 Post by Ptolemy »

This is my first attempt at putting out an archmage list that can compete in every phase and yet remain viable as a tournament list. I welcome all opinions.

Archmage
Lvl4, Silver Wand, RoF, 1 scroll
Mage
Lvl2, Seerstaff, 1 scroll
Noble BsB
Sword of Might, Helm of Fortune, DP kit
20 Spears
Full Command, Warbanner
10 Spears
5 Dragon Princes
Champ, Std, Banner of Ellyrion (Champ in case I'm playing an army that plays defensive and my BSB is better suited here)
5 Dragon Princes
15 Phoenix Guard
Full Command, Banner or Sorcery
7 Samur...er...Swordmasters :wink:
2x Tiranoc Chariot
2x Bolt Thrower
2x Eagle

I'm hoping the army has an above average magic phase, above average movement, above average hitting power on the charge, several useful redirectors/marchblockers and 2 workable anvils. I obviously lack for Str3 archery shooting but I'm not sure the handful of kills it will net me in most games is as valuable as the stategic benefit of the 10 man spear unit which can function to claim table quarters, flank charge, emergency mage bunker and see off fast cav units and other warmachine hunters.

What I'm really lacking for is a viable magic strategy. With the 8+D3 Power Dice the list is putting out, I won't be able to run roughshod over things magically. Magic Missile and small spell spam seems most likely to burn scrolls and get through enemy magic defense early to hopefull set up a big spell later.

Thoughts? looking tactically sound so far?
[quote]Tethlis: "Most GW female sculpts tend to look like a surly transgender woman of the night, and it would be nice to avoid that if possible."[/quote]
SpellArcher
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Good reasoning, good list.

I think the relative lack of shooting might hurt you but it might not.

Lord Anathir spelled out this magic phase in his tactica on the old forum. You get an average of 10PD, which can be a 4-die spell and a 3-die spell from the AM and a 3-die spell from the Mage. The key is your spell selection which means each spell should be one the enemy wants to dispel. This burns through the scrolls and lets you cause pain mid-late game.

It gets more complex with Hotek, Becalming, Puppet etc. but you should have enough flexibiliy to improvise.
pk-ng
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#3 Post by pk-ng »

You have 10 - 12 PD (RoF = 1) This would be consider a "heavy" magic army. If would want "balanced" You can try AM with RoF, 2 DS + JoD. No BoS. You'll have 7PD which is sufficient to cast 2 spells and you'll get 1 spell through at least!

Lack of shooting could be a big problem. If you can change your 10 Spears to 10 Archers that would pump it up a bit more!
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Ptolemy
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#4 Post by Ptolemy »

I don't mind the magic heavy aspect of the army if that is how most people would view it.

Does anyone have experience going with zero archers? I find them really useful only against low armor, T3 troops. Against anything T4 or heavy armor, they suck completely. Sticking that 10 man spear unit on a flank, deploying them 10 wide with a change frontage then wheeling them to force a redirected charge towards a table edge seems like the sort of trick static archers could never do.
[quote]Tethlis: "Most GW female sculpts tend to look like a surly transgender woman of the night, and it would be nice to avoid that if possible."[/quote]
SpellArcher
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

pk-ng wrote:You have 10 - 12 PD (RoF = 1) This would be consider a "heavy" magic army. If would want "balanced" You can try AM with RoF, 2 DS + JoD. No BoS. You'll have 7PD which is sufficient to cast 2 spells and you'll get 1 spell through at least!
I agree, it's heavy magic. So I guess this is a balanced list angled towards magic. I for instance run a balanced list angled towards cavalry. I know many guys run just the Archmage now but I think there's a lot to be said for taking the Lvl2 also, especially at 2250.

That Jewel Archmage is Ok but he can't be sure of getting the best spells. A phase like that can work under comp but you need to roll the right spells.

There's no denying that 10-man Spears can be useful. Some games Archers do very little but in others they kill light stuff and free your RBT up for heavier work. I think Lord Anathir played quite a few games successfully without Archers but he had 3 RBT if I recall. Reaver Bow is another idea.
Ilthaen
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#6 Post by Ilthaen »

I like the list overall, thought i prefer to put my BSB always on foot unless he is carrying the battle banner (the +1d6 resolution banner). The 10 spearmen i think are quite useless, and i would definitely change them for archers, if you want simple task. If you want multitask (read: guarding your bolt throwers) then you could consider 10 sea guard with shields. It is not much more expensive but certainly is more flexible if you have the points. I recommend archers anyway, as their longbows are actually quite useful despite being S3 and their range is key for a good shooting phase. If you run the lvl4 and lvl2 mages, i would give the lvl2 a power stone as i´ve found that makes the guy much more menacing and capable of casting a nasty spell (like unseen lurker or pit of shadows) that will draw a dispel scroll and make your life easier for your archmage.

Lastly i think your 2 anvil units (specially the spearmen) are not too solid, your BSB is on horse so you will have a hard time using any reroll, then, they do not have any hitting power (in fact you chose of the whole high elf army, the two anvil units with less hitting power) neither they are stubborn. So do you really expect them to hold anything? The enemy will charge you, you won´t kill anything with ASF, then the enemy will either: make mincemeat of the spearmen, or kill a few phoenix guards depending of the luck you have. At best you will be rolling a break test on 7s on the phoenix guard/spearmen, with no rerolls. I hardly call that good odds. I think you need to re-examine your anvil units and make them better at their job. Also consider including the BSB on foot with the spearmen, as that will improve your anvil and at the same time give the much needed reroll to both units.
Ptolemy
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#7 Post by Ptolemy »

Thanks for further feedback.

The BSB is fielded with the spearmen in most games. Being mounted only gives him (a) survivability and (b) deployment options. It also allows him to go where needed in the crucial move turn prior to close combat. I once had him join that innocent little unit of 10 spearmen for a flank charge when I was confident that the static +6 Combat Res of the unit was sufficient to win/draw a combat against a Bretonnian lord on pegasus.

I'm having a hard time after probably six months of using two clips of archers of seeing their value. I can list several armies where they are instantly useless (Dwarves, Brets, etc) and even against other elves, they have one round of shooting before your opponent's superior shooting wipes them out completely. What are people's expectations with archers? Are 5-10 models killed over the course of a game (on average) worth it for most people?

I agree that neither the spears nor PG are stubborn. However, I've been extremely underwhelmed with white lions. Their 3+ archery save is only marginally useful. Against crossbows they save only as good as PG do anyway because of the -1 to armor. They get no save of any kind against a strong warmachine phase and at only one attack a piece are very prone to fluffing a combat phase. White lions are just one of those units I feel lacks a strong identity so I give them a pass in favor of a unit tooled up for only one job. My 15 man PG block has only ever broken three times in six months of gaming.

As for the spears, they bring a static 6 CR in to combat and anything coming at them has to try to get past 15 str 3 attacks. Straight odds say that I'll get at least one more wound. That is a CR 7 with a BSB attacking to help or at least nearby. I'm not too worried of them running off. If they hold, the swordmasters and DP/Chariots will be in there the next round and wreck havoc.
[quote]Tethlis: "Most GW female sculpts tend to look like a surly transgender woman of the night, and it would be nice to avoid that if possible."[/quote]
dabber
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#8 Post by dabber »

Ptolemy wrote:even against other elves, they have one round of shooting before your opponent's superior shooting wipes them out completely.
If the enemy is killing archers, he is not killing something useful. Good for me.
Ptolemy wrote:What are people's expectations with archers?
If they survive the game, they have excelled. If they inflict more than 2 wounds in the game, they have exceeded expectations. I take 2x10 archers not because they are useful, but because that means my army is effectively only 200 points smaller than the enemy. If I take spears, I am playing more than 200 points down, so the archers are the better choice. And because they are so weak, they are more likely to be ignored and survive.
Ptolemy wrote:As for the spears, they bring a static 6 CR in to combat and anything coming at them has to try to get past 15 str 3 attacks. Straight odds say that I'll get at least one more wound.
Where do you get the idea the spears should hurt something? Sure they should do a wound if you fight other elven infantry, but how often does that happen?
SpellArcher
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#9 Post by SpellArcher »

Ilthaen wrote: i would give the lvl2 a power stone as i´ve found that makes the guy much more menacing and capable of casting a nasty spell (like unseen lurker or pit of shadows) that will draw a dispel scroll and make your life easier for your archmage.
This is a good idea but only if this guy also gets a good, reliable back-up spell IMHO, otherwise he's only 50% to cast the big spell again.

I think anvils are to taste. I can see why these work for you, though ideally I'd up the PG to 20. I'm a White Lion man myself as I like the reliability of Stubborn and the ability to kill knights etc. but it's only one way to go.

On the Archers, the range is important and even against Dwarfs for instance, they often have missile troops or Slayers you can target.
Stormie
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#10 Post by Stormie »

dabber wrote:Where do you get the idea the spears should hurt something? Sure they should do a wound if you fight other elven infantry, but how often does that happen?
Well, he might've either run the numbers, or played some warhammer? Even against 1+ save Knights, you can expect them to do a wound which cuts down on the number of models attacking you. And hey, if they don't, still +6CR like he says. Pretty good really! They're not going to cut down at entire rank of attacking enemies or dent Blood Knights, but most things? They'll do okay... probably ;)
Lord Anathir
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#11 Post by Lord Anathir »

I had 2x10 spears clean up 4+ units of skirmishing ungors then a unit of 6 flanked a unit of gors+doombull and swung their fight vs swordmasters in my favour.

Its all about the style of army you play. In that game I was playing a highly offensive infantry force, and in that list the 10 spears do fantastic (i used 3x10 for my core). Basically it was 2 rbt, eagle, 3x10 spears, 2 caddies, battle banner, seafarer prince and as much elite infantry as I could cram in (i think 7 swords, 13 swords, 14 lions, 15 PG with tricks). The weak links were actually the elite infantry. It really is a shocking arms race. Every list that doesnt have the tools to shoot and run away form the infantry have units that will destroy them in combat. When our book came out the infantry push might have worked but I dont think so anymore.

A few words about the list in discussion here. I played a list very similar to this for the better part of the year and these are my thoughts.

1) The archmage, no matter how I hash him out, isnt worth it (in my opinion) over a) a stardragon, b) a star lance horse prince or c) a seafarer prince. all do more, have ld10 and dont weigh down your army and possibly does nothing like the magic lord does.

2) The 5 man units of heavy cav dont cut it. they are just too easily defeated by a variety of options. all monsters beat them, shooting decimates them, single characters tank them. they're tough to maneouver laterally and for 150 points you're taking panics after 2 wounds and cant negate ranks after 3.

3) Your infantry units must able to 1v1 units. hammer and anvil is not for armies like ours where we only have a handful of combat units. Spears are not an anvil. PG wont win combats. If you're infantry line is: 14 lions, 14 swords with the psychology banners and then 20 spears with a flag on each side of them you will see how useful spears are. elite infantries take the charge, spears charge flank or protect against similar enemy flanking units who are trying to lend their numbers and flank your elite infantry.

Dont get me wrong, it is a fun list and it will get you lots of success. But it crumbles and crumbles hard against well constructed armies. If you play it often enough you will see what I mean.

Since I play with ETC rules currently I've gone back to the dragon bowline. star dragon, archers, rbt, reavers, shadows, a single unit of dp. Its not a bad list to play and its very point denial lish which suits me more. Its all about using the most powerful list the comp rules allow. (unless its peer marking in which case you have to tone it down some more).

peace.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
geoguswrek
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#12 Post by geoguswrek »

Lord Anathir wrote:
1) The archmage, no matter how I hash him out, isnt worth it (in my opinion) over a) a stardragon, b) a star lance horse prince or c) a seafarer prince. all do more, have ld10 and dont weigh down your army and possibly does nothing like the magic lord does.

If you are taking 2 scroll caddies then you can get the same defence (4 dice, 4 scrolls) plus a better attack (because a level 4 is better than 2 level 2's) for minimal extra investment, its also really useful if you come up against a dragon, just so you can cast beast cowers (on 4 dice, you'll get it through in 3/6 turns.) or chaos (spirit of the forge). A non-stardragon lord doesn't do very much at all really, i'm not convinced the points aren't better shunted into a unit of swordmasters.

2) The 5 man units of heavy cav dont cut it. they are just too easily defeated by a variety of options. all monsters beat them, shooting decimates them, single characters tank them. they're tough to maneouver laterally and for 150 points you're taking panics after 2 wounds and cant negate ranks after 3.

I love my units of 5 princes. You can get 3-4 units of them, naked, and they are a big threat to people with a 16" move and a lot of attacks when they do get there (even one or two is still a threat to small units). They may die quite quickly but they are worth so few points that you don't really care that much, and with ld9 they aren't that likely to fail a panic test anyway.
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Lord Anathir
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#13 Post by Lord Anathir »

Im not so sure about either point, it may just be a playstyle sort of thing.
The seafarer and star lance princes are cheap, and provide reliable damage output and are tough to kill if you're not lazy I guess.

About the dp.. what units are they likely to come up aganst on flanks that they can beat?
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Ptolemy
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#14 Post by Ptolemy »

I appreciate all the honest feedback. I had been running a stardragon list previously but in my local the king of the stardragon list runs it with six chariots. Since no other HE players exist, I'm looking for a different lord setup than a stardragon so the archmage seemed the next most reliable choice. I do admit, the thought of a 1st turn miscast effectively ending my game worries me.

I can't get the bad taste of white lions out of my mouth. Every time I put them on the board they fail me miserably. Their shooting protection always seems to be window dressing and their ability to fluff a critical combat roll with ASF has led them to being decimated by a heavy charge with their almost useless armor and Toughness Elf.

As for handling the flanks with Dragon Princes, I use my double eagles and tiranoc chariots to really cause some redirection trouble. I've only played this list once against a Bret player (who has superior cavalry all around) and with a combination of Beast Cowers shutting down key Pegasus Knight units and an eagle and tiranoc chariot on each side of the board, I was able to free the dragon princes to crash into the middle on both sides a turn after the infantry had held the initial grail knight/knights of the realm charge. I realize that a plan working this perfect is not likely (and the lack of enemy shooting made my army much more effective) but it seemed to accomplish what it was supposed to do. I'm playing Dark Elves tomorrow so we'll see how that goes.

I've thought about the idea of a foot lord with seafarer and a bsb with reaver bow combined with 2 lvl 2s. Probably is about as balanced a character set up as you can get. With a list like mine, would this serve me better than my current character load out?
[quote]Tethlis: "Most GW female sculpts tend to look like a surly transgender woman of the night, and it would be nice to avoid that if possible."[/quote]
Lord Anathir
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#15 Post by Lord Anathir »

Ptolemy wrote:I can't get the bad taste of white lions out of my mouth. Every time I put them on the board they fail me miserably. Their shooting protection always seems to be window dressing and their ability to fluff a critical combat roll with ASF has led them to being decimated by a heavy charge with their almost useless armor and Toughness Elf.
:wink:
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.

And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
geoguswrek
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#16 Post by geoguswrek »

Lord Anathir wrote:The seafarer and star lance princes are cheap, and provide reliable damage output and are tough to kill if you're not lazy I guess.
There are two reasons i go the level 4 route, firstly as i agree with you that 3 dice 2 scrolls isn't enough defence these days, i need either 2 hero wizards or a lord and i feel a level 4 is more efficient than 2 level 2's (and 2 level 1's is a bit of a waste). And secondly because if i do come up against heavy magic defence i can throw a large number of dice on one spell each turn, forcing a scroll or nothing.

The princes aren't that bad, but the one doesn't do that much more than a noble and the other doesn't add THAT much. (yes, the seafarer prince is awesome, but i can't justify it in my climate)
Lord Anathir wrote:About the dp.. what units are they likely to come up aganst on flanks that they can beat?
I don't really run them down the flank, sort of a crossover strategy, covering the centre from the flanks, since they can beat almost everything in the flank. Otherwise they are good for keeping flak away from your warmachines (its the quasi-defensive gunline strategy: make them come to you and then punish them for it)
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SpellArcher
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#17 Post by SpellArcher »

Ptolemy wrote:I can't get the bad taste of white lions out of my mouth. Every time I put them on the board they fail me miserably. Their shooting protection always seems to be window dressing and their ability to fluff a critical combat roll with ASF has led them to being decimated by a heavy charge with their almost useless armor and Toughness Elf.
How many do you run and what magic items on them?
Ilthaen
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#18 Post by Ilthaen »

White lions always need numbers, otherwise they do nothing. I´ve had good days where my 8 white lions attacks killed 3 enemy imperial knigths and other days where they have killed 1 or even nothing. It doesn´t matter really as their job is to hold the unit, not to obliterate it. If you get lucky and kill one or two knigths then good for you, because less of your troopers will die.

About the lord choice since some time i always pick the archmage when i plan to take any magic at all, otherwise i take a prince when i go with no magic or just a bit of magic defense. I think the archmage set up of around 400 points (350 archmage + saphery) is much better than the two lvl2s mages of 420 (185x2 + saphery) for an actual threatening magic phase. But obviously the best one is a lvl4 (wand) with a lvl2 (seer) supporting him. I personally don´t like adding more mages than that for two reasons: first, they are already expensive enough (a 585 points magic phase), and second i hate to roll for spells and don´t get anything i want. I feel the wand/seer are almost mandatory to be able to pick good spells. I like the setup of the mages in this list as it is the most powerful in my mind outside Teclis stepping in.
Ptolemy
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#19 Post by Ptolemy »

@SpellArcher

I've run them in 5x2 and 7x2 both units had the Lion Standard. In my climate, I have to deal with two notorious gun lines in a 4x RBT, 3 archer HE list and a Anvil of Doom list. In both cases, whitelions become an immediate target. They have never seen combat against either of these two armies. On top of that I have at least 3 other regular dwarf players and an empire player. Everyone knows they are stubborn, everyone blows them up with warmachines. I can move them into a wood but then they aren't clogging up key units who my foes know to keep out of the woods. If they get in combat and fluff rolls, even basic dwarf warriors carve them up no problem.

The best success I've ever had with them is putting them in a wood next to a RBT to serve as exteremly expensive warmachine guards against 3 units of spider riders.

I love the PG and Swordmasters for the obvious reasons. They are tooled for one job and do it exceptionally. 2 seven man swordmaster units are cheaper than even a 5x2 unit of lions with standard and have proven just as good at holding through the fact that they generate so much combat res through kills that I never have to worry about them being overwhelmed. It may not be stubborn, but they either win a combat outright (ran off a 25 man unit of marauders with FC using only my naked 7 man swordmaster unit) or lose by little more than 1. With my BSB nearby, rerolls on a 7 is not substantially worse than rerolls on a stubborn 8. PG have only one job, they are the only truly defensive thing in the army. Most guys here are so afraid of their ward saves that they try shooting at something else rather than waste cannonballs on a unit that can shrug them off.
[quote]Tethlis: "Most GW female sculpts tend to look like a surly transgender woman of the night, and it would be nice to avoid that if possible."[/quote]
SpellArcher
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Re: First attempt at 2250 balanced w/ Archmage

#20 Post by SpellArcher »

In such a heavy shooting environment, I can see why you'd prefer PG. For me, the point of the 3+ armour save is it buys you an extra turn to reach a gunline but here that doesn't seem like enough. A bit surprised the enemy don't target your Swordmasters though.

As mentioned, so long as they pass the break tests it's not crucial that Lions aren't inflicting kills. Their usual job is to hold up an enemy flank while you attack elsewhere. BSB within 12" is almost essential, though Gem of Courage can help.
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