Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Moderators: The Heralds, The Loremasters
Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Greetings,
I am returning to the game after a 7 month pause, and the grand entering ( ) will take
place at a tournament in Novi Sad, Serbia, on April 24-25th. The tourney is following the
ETC rules:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Army Restrictions for the Uprising 2010
- Armies are 2000/2250/2600 points.
- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non-DoW armies . (OK may use Rhinox Cav)
- No SoC armies.
The ladder system:
All armies are divided into three categories; A, B and C. Category A armies are limited to 2000pts, B to 2250pts, C to 2600pts
When calculating victory points at the end of the game, once you have the result, then add 10% to any category A army's losses rounding off as normal. Any category C army would conversely have its losses reduced by 20%
Category A (2000pts)
Demons of Chaos
Category B (2250pts)
Dark Elves
Vampires
Empire
Lizardmen
Skaven (to be confirmed end of February)
Bretonnia
Chaos Dwarfs
Dwarfs
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Beastmen
Category C (2600pts)
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Dogs of War
General composition rules:
- Band C Armies may have 6 Special and 4 Rare Choices.
- Max. 1 of each rare choice (Max.2 of each for High Elves)
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 chariots (incl. characters and units).
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.
- Max. 9 PD in an army *
*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.
Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.
All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.
Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.
Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does count in this maximum. Being allowed to reroll your dispel dice every turn counts as 1 dispel dice.
Dice removed by the Chaos Dwarf Chalice of Darkness count as dice used. You remove 3 power dice, you can use only 6 more in your magic phase.
Race specific:
DAEMONS OF CHAOS - All Greater Daemons count as an additional hero choice; Herald BSB may take either daemonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both; Daemonic Gifts may not be duplicated (except for Spellbreakers); Horrors are limited to 0-2.
DARK ELVES -Max. 35 repeater crossbows in the army; Max. 8 shades per unit; Max. 2 flying units or characters; Assassins after the first take a hero choice; Pendant of khaleth takes a hero choice; Ring of hotek takes a hero choice; Max. 1 Large Target; Max. 1 Rare choice
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as 2 rare choices; Max. 3 Wizards (Including the Arch Lector)
LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max. 6 Terradons in army (excl. characters); All disciplines taken after the third count as an additional hero slot (Slann BSB counts as 1, Becalming Cogitation as 2 Disciplines); max. 2 Stegadons of any type
ORCS & GOBLINS - Max 6 goblin fanatics.
VAMPIRE COUNTS - The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice; The Helm of Command counts as an additional hero choice; Each +1 to cast in the army counts as 1 powerdice in each phase. Max. 5 Cairn Wraiths
WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman.
SKAVEN: Max. 3 large targets (Hell Pit Abomination and Doomwheel count as 2 each; HPA also counts as 2 rare slots); for each unit of Clanrats/Stormvermin you may have up to 1 unit each of Skavenslaves, Rat Swarms and Giant Rats; Stormbanner is BSB only; Doom Rocket, Poison Wind Mortar, Jezzail units and a Doomweel count as warmachines
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been thinking a lot about how the game would look like under these rules, what
common threats will be eliminated and which one would not. I want to design a list that
can combat all possible matches and of course give me a reasonable chance to succeed.
So far, it seems that DoC and, strangely, DE, have been nerfed to a point in which they
seem pretty doable. It seems that WE, Empire and mounted cavalry vampires would be the big
challenge, as well as some lizardmen builds.
Most dangerous potential match ups or threats seem to be:
* Empire - alter, stank, 2xlvl 2, 1-2 units of knights, 2-3 cannons/mortars
* Vampires - vargulf, ethereals, zombie dragon, blood knights
* Wood elves - treeman, mass skirmishers, heavy shooting
* Lizzardmen - old blood on carnozaurus, stegadons
* WoC - warrios of chaos, chaos knights
These seem to be the major threats that I can identify under the tournament rules. My
desire is to bring an army, that has an answer to these threats.
It is clear that a stardragon list would have very good chances in this environment, but I
want to try to field a 'standard' army if I manage to get one that I like.
So far I am thorned between 2 approaches:
Type I. The classical
* Archmage, lvl 4, silver wand, ring of fury, 2xdispel scrolls - 350
* Noble, BSB, barded steed, helm of fortune, sword of might, dragon armour, shield - 174
* Noble, AoC, gem of courage, GW - 128
* 19 Spears, FC, Lion Banner - 221
* 10 Archers - 110
* 17 PG, FC, banner of Sorcery - 335
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ellyrion - 215
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ballance - 245
* 2xRBTs - 200
* 2xGreat Eagles - 100
Total: 2248
Thoughts on this list:
* the archmage with the ring and the banner of sorcery fills in the magic requirements
nicely. I do not think that there will be many magic heavy armies, and I also expect to
see a lot of armies relying on a single caddy. This set up should allow me to protect the
army against the more dangerous magical opponents, or even better - do a lot of damage
after the opponents weak magic defence is penetrated after turn 2 or 3
* the spears will be supported by a noble with a GW, and this will greatly enhance their
effeciency - the are likely to be able to go toe to toe with most infantry (except
warriors of chaos). PGs would get similar support from the BSB, thus giving me 2 fairly
strong infantry blocks, both of which are immune to the fear auto breaks.
* together with the PGs, the spears will form a solid centre, which should hold the enemy
line while my mobile force envelops it
* RBTs and archers should privide anti-missile battery counter fire, or the RBTs will aim
to soften enemy large targets
* TCs will support the infantry or cavalry blocks on the charge, or will guard my missile
battery.
* I have decent magic and the sword of might against ethereals.
* Banner of ballance would help greatly against frenzied troops or a hatred vargulf.. The
BSB can hop in there for extra punch if necessary
Type II - Unorthodox
* Prince, da, shield, lance, barded steed, bow of the seafarer, Temakador's Gauntlet's,
Talisman of Loec - 292
* Noble, BSB, reaver bow, dragon armour, enchanted shield, lance, barded elven steed - 188
* Noble, barded steed, da, shield, helm of fortune, sword of might - 149
* Mage, 2xdispel scrolls - 140
* 19 Spears, sb, champion, Lion Banner - 216
* 10 spears - 90
* 15 PG, FC, war Banner - 275
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* 5 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ellyrion - 185
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ballance - 245
* 2xRBTs - 200
* 2xGreat Eagles - 100
Total: 2250
In this approach, i totally give up magic, in echange of an improvement in CC, shooting
and movement (2 more mounted CC characters)
Thoughts:
* Bow of the seafarer is huge - i have been happy with it every time I have used it. This
item also offers solution to heavy empire or chaos cavalry, as a shot in the flank does
wonders.
* Reaver bow is also good for taking out enemy support troops
* 3 CC characters with 1+ AS adds more security and a stronger punch where needed
* More reliable damage output, as magic is fairly limitted by the 9 PD restriction and I
would need 2-4 turns to break the enemy defences
* On the negative side - I may have a problem if I meet 9PD enemy armies my self, but I
somehow feel that these armies will not be a frequant occurance on this tourney.
So what are your thoughts? Ideas? Advise? Am I missing something? Which list is better
suited for the specific tourney environment and restrictions? Which one should I choose..
So many questions, so few answers
I am returning to the game after a 7 month pause, and the grand entering ( ) will take
place at a tournament in Novi Sad, Serbia, on April 24-25th. The tourney is following the
ETC rules:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Army Restrictions for the Uprising 2010
- Armies are 2000/2250/2600 points.
- No characters that are: special, named or Albion
- No DoW or RoR in non-DoW armies . (OK may use Rhinox Cav)
- No SoC armies.
The ladder system:
All armies are divided into three categories; A, B and C. Category A armies are limited to 2000pts, B to 2250pts, C to 2600pts
When calculating victory points at the end of the game, once you have the result, then add 10% to any category A army's losses rounding off as normal. Any category C army would conversely have its losses reduced by 20%
Category A (2000pts)
Demons of Chaos
Category B (2250pts)
Dark Elves
Vampires
Empire
Lizardmen
Skaven (to be confirmed end of February)
Bretonnia
Chaos Dwarfs
Dwarfs
High Elves
Warriors of Chaos
Tomb Kings
Wood Elves
Beastmen
Category C (2600pts)
Ogre Kingdoms
Orcs & Goblins
Dogs of War
General composition rules:
- Band C Armies may have 6 Special and 4 Rare Choices.
- Max. 1 of each rare choice (Max.2 of each for High Elves)
- Max. 2 of the same Special choice
- Max. 3 of the same Core choice, except ranked infantry without missile weapons and beast herds.
- Max. 3 chariots (incl. characters and units).
- Max. 3 units of flyers (incl. characters)
- Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).
- Max. 5 warmachines.
- Max. 9 PD in an army *
*Magic description
You can use a maximum of 9 power dice in each magic phase. Each bound spell you use count as 1 power dice, all following bound spells used in the same turn counts as 2 power dice.
Every ability that grants the bearer complete knowledge of a single lore counts as one power dice in each magic phase.
All dice you would not normally generate, such as Focused Rumination Slann free dice, Skaven warpstones, night goblin mushrooms, power of darkness etc., also count in the total number of dice you can use in a magic phase.
Tomb Kings count each dice they use for a spell as 1 power dice and casket of souls counts as 2 dice total. They can not chose not to use all the dice when casting an incantation, for example a Liche Priest can’t choose only to use 1 dice on a spell. You can how ever choose not to cast a spell with a model. The 2 basic power dice all armies get only counts if they are used to dispel RIP spells with.
Max 10 dispel dice per army. First dispel scroll (and similar working items) you have in your army counts as 1 dispel dice, in EACH magic phase. The second and all other scrolls, counts as 2 dispel dice in each magic phase. So if you have 3 scrolls you can use a maximum of 5 dispel dice each magic phase. Dice from magic resistance does count in this maximum. Being allowed to reroll your dispel dice every turn counts as 1 dispel dice.
Dice removed by the Chaos Dwarf Chalice of Darkness count as dice used. You remove 3 power dice, you can use only 6 more in your magic phase.
Race specific:
DAEMONS OF CHAOS - All Greater Daemons count as an additional hero choice; Herald BSB may take either daemonic gifts or a daemonic icon, not both; Daemonic Gifts may not be duplicated (except for Spellbreakers); Horrors are limited to 0-2.
DARK ELVES -Max. 35 repeater crossbows in the army; Max. 8 shades per unit; Max. 2 flying units or characters; Assassins after the first take a hero choice; Pendant of khaleth takes a hero choice; Ring of hotek takes a hero choice; Max. 1 Large Target; Max. 1 Rare choice
EMPIRE - Steam Tank counts as 2 rare choices; Max. 3 Wizards (Including the Arch Lector)
LIZARDMEN - Characters mounted on Stegadons also use the relevant special or rare slot; Max. 6 Terradons in army (excl. characters); All disciplines taken after the third count as an additional hero slot (Slann BSB counts as 1, Becalming Cogitation as 2 Disciplines); max. 2 Stegadons of any type
ORCS & GOBLINS - Max 6 goblin fanatics.
VAMPIRE COUNTS - The Drakenhoff banner counts as an additional hero choice; The Helm of Command counts as an additional hero choice; Each +1 to cast in the army counts as 1 powerdice in each phase. Max. 5 Cairn Wraiths
WOOD ELVES - Treeman Ancient counts as Treeman.
SKAVEN: Max. 3 large targets (Hell Pit Abomination and Doomwheel count as 2 each; HPA also counts as 2 rare slots); for each unit of Clanrats/Stormvermin you may have up to 1 unit each of Skavenslaves, Rat Swarms and Giant Rats; Stormbanner is BSB only; Doom Rocket, Poison Wind Mortar, Jezzail units and a Doomweel count as warmachines
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have been thinking a lot about how the game would look like under these rules, what
common threats will be eliminated and which one would not. I want to design a list that
can combat all possible matches and of course give me a reasonable chance to succeed.
So far, it seems that DoC and, strangely, DE, have been nerfed to a point in which they
seem pretty doable. It seems that WE, Empire and mounted cavalry vampires would be the big
challenge, as well as some lizardmen builds.
Most dangerous potential match ups or threats seem to be:
* Empire - alter, stank, 2xlvl 2, 1-2 units of knights, 2-3 cannons/mortars
* Vampires - vargulf, ethereals, zombie dragon, blood knights
* Wood elves - treeman, mass skirmishers, heavy shooting
* Lizzardmen - old blood on carnozaurus, stegadons
* WoC - warrios of chaos, chaos knights
These seem to be the major threats that I can identify under the tournament rules. My
desire is to bring an army, that has an answer to these threats.
It is clear that a stardragon list would have very good chances in this environment, but I
want to try to field a 'standard' army if I manage to get one that I like.
So far I am thorned between 2 approaches:
Type I. The classical
* Archmage, lvl 4, silver wand, ring of fury, 2xdispel scrolls - 350
* Noble, BSB, barded steed, helm of fortune, sword of might, dragon armour, shield - 174
* Noble, AoC, gem of courage, GW - 128
* 19 Spears, FC, Lion Banner - 221
* 10 Archers - 110
* 17 PG, FC, banner of Sorcery - 335
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ellyrion - 215
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ballance - 245
* 2xRBTs - 200
* 2xGreat Eagles - 100
Total: 2248
Thoughts on this list:
* the archmage with the ring and the banner of sorcery fills in the magic requirements
nicely. I do not think that there will be many magic heavy armies, and I also expect to
see a lot of armies relying on a single caddy. This set up should allow me to protect the
army against the more dangerous magical opponents, or even better - do a lot of damage
after the opponents weak magic defence is penetrated after turn 2 or 3
* the spears will be supported by a noble with a GW, and this will greatly enhance their
effeciency - the are likely to be able to go toe to toe with most infantry (except
warriors of chaos). PGs would get similar support from the BSB, thus giving me 2 fairly
strong infantry blocks, both of which are immune to the fear auto breaks.
* together with the PGs, the spears will form a solid centre, which should hold the enemy
line while my mobile force envelops it
* RBTs and archers should privide anti-missile battery counter fire, or the RBTs will aim
to soften enemy large targets
* TCs will support the infantry or cavalry blocks on the charge, or will guard my missile
battery.
* I have decent magic and the sword of might against ethereals.
* Banner of ballance would help greatly against frenzied troops or a hatred vargulf.. The
BSB can hop in there for extra punch if necessary
Type II - Unorthodox
* Prince, da, shield, lance, barded steed, bow of the seafarer, Temakador's Gauntlet's,
Talisman of Loec - 292
* Noble, BSB, reaver bow, dragon armour, enchanted shield, lance, barded elven steed - 188
* Noble, barded steed, da, shield, helm of fortune, sword of might - 149
* Mage, 2xdispel scrolls - 140
* 19 Spears, sb, champion, Lion Banner - 216
* 10 spears - 90
* 15 PG, FC, war Banner - 275
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* 5 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ellyrion - 185
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ballance - 245
* 2xRBTs - 200
* 2xGreat Eagles - 100
Total: 2250
In this approach, i totally give up magic, in echange of an improvement in CC, shooting
and movement (2 more mounted CC characters)
Thoughts:
* Bow of the seafarer is huge - i have been happy with it every time I have used it. This
item also offers solution to heavy empire or chaos cavalry, as a shot in the flank does
wonders.
* Reaver bow is also good for taking out enemy support troops
* 3 CC characters with 1+ AS adds more security and a stronger punch where needed
* More reliable damage output, as magic is fairly limitted by the 9 PD restriction and I
would need 2-4 turns to break the enemy defences
* On the negative side - I may have a problem if I meet 9PD enemy armies my self, but I
somehow feel that these armies will not be a frequant occurance on this tourney.
So what are your thoughts? Ideas? Advise? Am I missing something? Which list is better
suited for the specific tourney environment and restrictions? Which one should I choose..
So many questions, so few answers
-
- Green Istari
- Posts: 13841
- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:26 am
- Location: Otherworld
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
If I were a DE player, I'd be happy to have a 250pt headstart on Daemons. 35 RXB and 2 RBT is still a lot of shooting. Ok he has to choose between the Hydra and the Dragon but Hotek can go on this or on a unit champ.
I prefer your first list, I think High Elves need a magic phase. I agree with your Archmage set-up, though there are other ways to go (eg Book of Hoeth). You could easily fit Reaver Bow into this list.
I prefer your first list, I think High Elves need a magic phase. I agree with your Archmage set-up, though there are other ways to go (eg Book of Hoeth). You could easily fit Reaver Bow into this list.
A New Blog (Orcs and Goblins)
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=70550
Cavalry Prince Reloaded
http://ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=70001
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Yes, the DE do not seem to be totally out of options, though I expect many of the DE players to be frustrated. Personally, I think that DoC are broken beyond repair (the only WFB army that is over the top, imho), so I am welcoming any restriction for them. Actually, I feel that the ETC rules are a step in the right direction for DoC..
On the lists - you arew very right, I am seriously considering the Book of Hoeth - it would give me 2 good attempts to cast spells with IF. The only problem can be bad spell selection, which would render the book almost obsolete - i.e I choose shadows and do not get the pits of shades and/or the unseen lurker - that would leave me in an awkward position..
I am a huge fan of the bows, both of them. However, in the AM list, both of the characters have specific roles, and compromising their protection for the reaver bow may disbalance the list.
My desire is to be able to understand how the battlefield would look under these restrictions and bring in the right tools to match and handle the threats.
To this end, while the AM list seem more 'High Elven' I have a feeling that the prince list would do better ..
On the lists - you arew very right, I am seriously considering the Book of Hoeth - it would give me 2 good attempts to cast spells with IF. The only problem can be bad spell selection, which would render the book almost obsolete - i.e I choose shadows and do not get the pits of shades and/or the unseen lurker - that would leave me in an awkward position..
I am a huge fan of the bows, both of them. However, in the AM list, both of the characters have specific roles, and compromising their protection for the reaver bow may disbalance the list.
My desire is to be able to understand how the battlefield would look under these restrictions and bring in the right tools to match and handle the threats.
To this end, while the AM list seem more 'High Elven' I have a feeling that the prince list would do better ..
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Thats what I reckon aswell unless you had the BoH on the AM.Marinero wrote:I have a feeling that the prince list would do better ..
The 2 bows really are awesome!
[i]"You only get one chance to make a last impression."[/i]
[i]"For every choice, a consequence."[/i]
[i]"For every choice, a consequence."[/i]
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Why don't you take everything: shooting, blocks, magic and the big worm. This is actually a conversion from one etc 2009 list.
Characters
Prince with BotS, GP, Enc. Shield, Lance, DA, Star Dragon=624
Mage with lvl2, Ring of Fury and Silver Wand=185
Mage with lvl2, 2xscroll and GoC=185
Core
10xarchers=110
10xarchers=110
10xarchers=110
Special
5xshadow warriors=80
5xdragon princes with sb and banner of sorcery=220
15xlions with FC, skeinsilver and balance banner =325
Rare
Great Eagle=50
Great Eagle=50
Repeating bolt thrower=100
Repeating bolt thrower=100
Total=2249, power=6+d3+1 bound, dispel=4+2 scroll+(HE-bonus)
Characters
Prince with BotS, GP, Enc. Shield, Lance, DA, Star Dragon=624
Mage with lvl2, Ring of Fury and Silver Wand=185
Mage with lvl2, 2xscroll and GoC=185
Core
10xarchers=110
10xarchers=110
10xarchers=110
Special
5xshadow warriors=80
5xdragon princes with sb and banner of sorcery=220
15xlions with FC, skeinsilver and balance banner =325
Rare
Great Eagle=50
Great Eagle=50
Repeating bolt thrower=100
Repeating bolt thrower=100
Total=2249, power=6+d3+1 bound, dispel=4+2 scroll+(HE-bonus)
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
@Alathenar - Indeed .. The double bow build is the third viable rout for composing the Asur army, other than magic and dragon. It is still overlooked, so when used, opponents tend to be very surprised..
@PGP - Interesting idea, I am beginning to think about it. However, how do you deploy 30 archers efficiently? I have always had trouble deploying more that 20, both with the Asur and the Asrai. Archers take a lot of deployment space as we did not get shoot in 2 ranks..
In the mean time, the double bow list has evolved to this:
* Prince, da, shield, lance, sun dragon, bow of the seafarer, Temakador's Gauntlet's, Talisman of Loec - 498
* Noble, BSB, reaver bow, dragon armour, enchanted shield, lance, barded elven steed - 188
* Mage, 2xdispel scrolls - 140
* 10 LSG, shields - 130
* 10 LSG, shields - 130
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Balance - 245
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ellyrion - 215
* Lion chariot - 140
* Tyranoc chariot - 85
* Tyranoc chariot - 85
* 5 ER, spears, mus - 92
* 2xRBT - 200
* 2xGE - 100
Total: 2248
I know that the sun dragon is frawned upon, but, it still is a dragon. It brings terror, flight, good CC and a breath weapon on the table. The prince can negate ranks and claim table quarters. How do you like this version of the double bow list?
@PGP - Interesting idea, I am beginning to think about it. However, how do you deploy 30 archers efficiently? I have always had trouble deploying more that 20, both with the Asur and the Asrai. Archers take a lot of deployment space as we did not get shoot in 2 ranks..
In the mean time, the double bow list has evolved to this:
* Prince, da, shield, lance, sun dragon, bow of the seafarer, Temakador's Gauntlet's, Talisman of Loec - 498
* Noble, BSB, reaver bow, dragon armour, enchanted shield, lance, barded elven steed - 188
* Mage, 2xdispel scrolls - 140
* 10 LSG, shields - 130
* 10 LSG, shields - 130
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Balance - 245
* 6 Dragon Princes, sb, Banner of Ellyrion - 215
* Lion chariot - 140
* Tyranoc chariot - 85
* Tyranoc chariot - 85
* 5 ER, spears, mus - 92
* 2xRBT - 200
* 2xGE - 100
Total: 2248
I know that the sun dragon is frawned upon, but, it still is a dragon. It brings terror, flight, good CC and a breath weapon on the table. The prince can negate ranks and claim table quarters. How do you like this version of the double bow list?
-
- Posts: 220
- Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:25 pm
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
I believe ETC doesn't allow any model to fire at two different targets, which means that the Seafarer bow and the breath weapon must be used at the same target. Because of that I would seriously consider the griffon.
Otherwise quite nice, some magical close combat attacks wouldn't hurt, though. Maybe find points for a drakemaster with Amulet of light for the DPs with Balance.
Otherwise quite nice, some magical close combat attacks wouldn't hurt, though. Maybe find points for a drakemaster with Amulet of light for the DPs with Balance.
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
@GobbladasSquig - good point on the shooting. However, the breath weapon and the bow have different target groups - the BoS is for heavy cavalry or large targets, whereas the breath is mainly for low or no armour T3 infantry. That is actually very good, as I would have more versatility.
As for the griphon-sundragon situation. I have always been firmly in the sundragon camp because I think that the advantages of the sundragon are numerous - +1T, +1 wound, scaleskin, breath weapon, and all this for 30 points. If one takes a griphon, there would probably not be enough points for a 4th character at 2250 point level games anyway, so the main advantage of the griphon is gone.. Finally, I do not have a griphon model yet - it is the only HE model missing from my collection
I agree with you about the amulet of light, but I could not find a way to squeeze in these 35 points without either dropping a unit or decreasing the power of the 2nd DP unit. The only alternative could be to downgrade the 2xLSG to 2xarchers, or downgrade one of the LSG to spears.. Do you think that would be worth it? The LSG would be very useful in this list, as they are likely to tag behind the fast moving units and 1. protect the RBTs and 2. provide combat support charges in the last 1-2 turns. The amulet of light would be useful against dryads, treekin and ethereals. I think that the 2 bows can help a lot against ethereals, dryads are not that tough to worry about them so much, and treekin are slow and avoidable..
As for the griphon-sundragon situation. I have always been firmly in the sundragon camp because I think that the advantages of the sundragon are numerous - +1T, +1 wound, scaleskin, breath weapon, and all this for 30 points. If one takes a griphon, there would probably not be enough points for a 4th character at 2250 point level games anyway, so the main advantage of the griphon is gone.. Finally, I do not have a griphon model yet - it is the only HE model missing from my collection
I agree with you about the amulet of light, but I could not find a way to squeeze in these 35 points without either dropping a unit or decreasing the power of the 2nd DP unit. The only alternative could be to downgrade the 2xLSG to 2xarchers, or downgrade one of the LSG to spears.. Do you think that would be worth it? The LSG would be very useful in this list, as they are likely to tag behind the fast moving units and 1. protect the RBTs and 2. provide combat support charges in the last 1-2 turns. The amulet of light would be useful against dryads, treekin and ethereals. I think that the 2 bows can help a lot against ethereals, dryads are not that tough to worry about them so much, and treekin are slow and avoidable..
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
It is just stupid, that I must use BoTS and breath to same target.
Basically there are not so many own units blocking line of sight of archers with the list. This reduces little the difficult of deployment. WL are basically a mage bunker (GoC is a nice addition to stubborn ITP mage bunker) and probably placed in some forest (three ranks with mages 6+6+5). Dragon and DP might (or usually) hunt something, but mainly list is a ranged attack list with march blockers. There is a high possibility of first turn with skeinsilver and few units. This help also ranged attacks. Of course the list has some problems like the dragon and its rider, which usually have to be in combat or it is shot to death by rxbs, cannons and bolt throwers
Two mages also give you the possibility of taking two lores, the drain magic is probably always in this list when there are even remote possibility of facing magic offence, so the high is taken quite often. Original list was actually played with RGoH+JoD+reaver bow prince without sorcery banner, but I value s6/d3 wound ranged attack and constant ward save more than three lores. I could even get the thirsters/dragons/tanks/doomwheels with ranged s6 and dragon charge.
Basically there are not so many own units blocking line of sight of archers with the list. This reduces little the difficult of deployment. WL are basically a mage bunker (GoC is a nice addition to stubborn ITP mage bunker) and probably placed in some forest (three ranks with mages 6+6+5). Dragon and DP might (or usually) hunt something, but mainly list is a ranged attack list with march blockers. There is a high possibility of first turn with skeinsilver and few units. This help also ranged attacks. Of course the list has some problems like the dragon and its rider, which usually have to be in combat or it is shot to death by rxbs, cannons and bolt throwers
Two mages also give you the possibility of taking two lores, the drain magic is probably always in this list when there are even remote possibility of facing magic offence, so the high is taken quite often. Original list was actually played with RGoH+JoD+reaver bow prince without sorcery banner, but I value s6/d3 wound ranged attack and constant ward save more than three lores. I could even get the thirsters/dragons/tanks/doomwheels with ranged s6 and dragon charge.
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Compared to the ETC-derived UK comps now surfacing, these restrictions are generous.Marinero wrote:though I expect many of the DE players to be frustrated
Can't remember the exact odds but the chances of rolling the first four spells of Shadow are very low, you are very likely to get either Pit or Lurker.Marinero wrote:i.e I choose shadows and do not get the pits of shades and/or the unseen lurker - that would leave me in an awkward position..
I think Reaver Bow/Talisman of Loec is the way to go. I guess you'd lose either the tank guy or the Gem though. Can the latter go anywhere else?Marinero wrote:I am a huge fan of the bows, both of them. However, in the AM list, both of the characters have specific roles, and compromising their protection for the reaver bow may disbalance the list.
Ant Spiers put together an interesting twin bow list but it had a medium magic phase also.Marinero wrote:The double bow build is the third viable rout for composing the Asur army, other than magic and dragon.
I like your Sun Dragon list except for one thing. How will you prevent it being Cowered?
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
I'm coming round to the twin bow list, with a prince w/BotS on a sun dragon and a BSB w/RB in chariot or a barded steed. A problem I'm struggling with is how best to utilise the seafarer prince? In one respect he needs to be in combat otherwise he gets shot, but he doesn't want to be in combat because his mount isn't brilliant and he needs to use his bow. There are only so many places to position a bloody great big dragon to avoid being shot at by 30 RxBs or 6 spear chukkas. My 2 of your queen's english pennies anyway.
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
@PGP - One of my all time favourite lists is star dragon with 2 lvl 2 mages, but I usually use cavalry and chariots as they are better suited to support the dragon. It is a very strong list indeed
@ Spell Archer -
@ Spell Archer -
I would probably keep the tank BSB and upgrade the other noble to reaver bow, talisman of loec, da, shield, GW - he still will be able to support the spears while he would boost the shooting phase nicely. He can also guard the RBTs if necessaryI think Reaver Bow/Talisman of Loec is the way to go. I guess you'd lose either the tank guy or the Gem though. Can the latter go anywhere else?
Well, I do have 2 scroll and 3 DD so I guess that in the ever important turn before he charges I could protect him from beast coweres. Otherwise, this is the charm of the seafarer bow - even if they pin the dragon, the prince will still be able to fire so it actually may be a cunning plan - if I want to shoot at a certain target, I position the dragon so that he can both shoot and charge and let my opponent pin the dragon. In this way, he will not damage my other units and will totally waste his magic in stopping a dragon that was intended to remain stationary for the certain turnI like your Sun Dragon list except for one thing. How will you prevent it being Cowered?
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
The ETC restictions are actually nice - one can have max 5 war machines, so no more than 5 chukkas. That also includes no stonethrowers and doom divers, so it may be bearable. Protecting the big wyrm is the biggest issue when fielding it, and sometimes one has to accept that there will be damage.. I have fielded a stardragon prince with the seafarer bow, and the dragon never died ( the prince died once to a cannon ball). The sundragon is way weaker, so it may be more difficult.. I usually place the prince on one of the flanks, the one that has the lease shooting threats and most terrain, and aim for a turn 2 flank charge, while the chariots and princes advance in the front. In this way, if I manage to pull the charge off, the entire flank of the enemy will collapse. If for one reason or another I cannot do it on my turn 2 then I spend turn 2 shooting and terror causing.Chracian wrote:I'm coming round to the twin bow list, with a prince w/BotS on a sun dragon and a BSB w/RB in chariot or a barded steed. A problem I'm struggling with is how best to utilise the seafarer prince? In one respect he needs to be in combat otherwise he gets shot, but he doesn't want to be in combat because his mount isn't brilliant and he needs to use his bow. There are only so many places to position a bloody great big dragon to avoid being shot at by 30 RxBs or 6 spear chukkas. My 2 of your queen's english pennies anyway.
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
It's hard to see past this as the best character set-up under ETC.Marinero wrote:- One of my all time favourite lists is star dragon with 2 lvl 2 mages
I think this depends on you being able to outmaneouvre your opponent's shooting and cause serious damage quickly. Certain opponents may cause this problems IMHO.Marinero wrote:, I position the dragon so that he can both shoot and charge and let my opponent pin the dragon.
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
I think dragon, 2 lvl2, core lsg or archers (lsg might be better because they can fight), 2 dp units and then some sort of support. I suggested in another thread a unit of reavers and then as many helms in one unit as you can (only fit 8 or 9) with the idea of carrying mounted mages so they can reach the star dragon with support spells.
Another option is double magic bow and the regular smattering of infantry and a cav unit. Ive never played with the ETC regulations so Im not sure how the phases balance out.
Another option is double magic bow and the regular smattering of infantry and a cav unit. Ive never played with the ETC regulations so Im not sure how the phases balance out.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Spot on.. The issue is that I need to decide, whether to take the dragon route or the infantry route .. I have limitted opportunities to play timewise (work, kid, family), and so I would not be able to test all the ideas that I have.. That is why I like to discuss them, the process helps me get a decision more quickly.Lord Anathir wrote:I think dragon, 2 lvl2, core lsg or archers (lsg might be better because they can fight), 2 dp units and then some sort of support. I suggested in another thread a unit of reavers and then as many helms in one unit as you can (only fit 8 or 9) with the idea of carrying mounted mages so they can reach the star dragon with support spells.
Another option is double magic bow and the regular smattering of infantry and a cav unit. Ive never played with the ETC regulations so Im not sure how the phases balance out.
Currently I am stuck between the 2 bows combo, with a sun or star dragon or AM lvl 4, 2 nobles, 2 blocks of infantry, cavalry/chariot support..
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Hey, i plan on going to Uprising also! Unless exams get in the way
For me it was the decision between the Double Dragon or Double Bows, but I took the first one
My advice would be to go for the bows. And maybe take a prince on foot (with armour of stars) or mounted, reaver noble and a dragon mage. Dragon mage is much better than 2xlvl2 if you have Banner of Sorcery around (believe it or not he can generate 8-10power dice). It`s all about splitting the flying terror causer and missile platform since the prince can hide in units.
For the rest of the army i usually get PG (for the banner of sorcery) and maybe one more ranked unit and the rest for the fast stuff and repeaters (2RBT and 2eagles so it`s total of 3 flyers and 2 TC).
For me it was the decision between the Double Dragon or Double Bows, but I took the first one
My advice would be to go for the bows. And maybe take a prince on foot (with armour of stars) or mounted, reaver noble and a dragon mage. Dragon mage is much better than 2xlvl2 if you have Banner of Sorcery around (believe it or not he can generate 8-10power dice). It`s all about splitting the flying terror causer and missile platform since the prince can hide in units.
For the rest of the army i usually get PG (for the banner of sorcery) and maybe one more ranked unit and the rest for the fast stuff and repeaters (2RBT and 2eagles so it`s total of 3 flyers and 2 TC).
The Slaughter Now Ensues
Bodies Fall Like Rain
They Valiantly Pursue
Yet Doomed To Remain
At The Double Quick They Charge
The Canister Rips Through Them
To The Mouth Of hell They March
Glory, The Only Gain
Bodies Fall Like Rain
They Valiantly Pursue
Yet Doomed To Remain
At The Double Quick They Charge
The Canister Rips Through Them
To The Mouth Of hell They March
Glory, The Only Gain
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Hey JTFCUP, it would be nice to meet you there.
Double dragon is my fall back position if I do not manage to tailor something that provides satisfying game play exp
I have trouble doing a decent list under the ETC restrictions with my HE. I am considering taking the Asrai as well, as they seem to fare very well under the ETC terms.
M
Double dragon is my fall back position if I do not manage to tailor something that provides satisfying game play exp
I have trouble doing a decent list under the ETC restrictions with my HE. I am considering taking the Asrai as well, as they seem to fare very well under the ETC terms.
M
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Hey,
I did a lot of playtesting of Archmage led armies and I must say that the 9PD restriction is killing me. I am considering this version now, as last ditch attempt to make a working army under these rules.
* Archmage, lvl 4, 2xdispel scrolls, silver wand, ring of fury - 350
* Noble, BSB, AoC, Dragon Horn, GW - 168 - to make the spears more fighty and to help me vs fear causers - 1 failed charge sometimes has costed me the game
* Noble, steed, da, sh, starlance, ToL - 155 - i need something reliable to take out war alter, the black coach or a nasty BSB with a banner that makes all enemy units stubborn
* 19 Spears, FC - 221
* 10 Archers - 110
* 6 DP, standard, champion, skeinsliver, banner of Sorcery - 295
* 6 DP, standard, Banner of Ellyrion - 215
* Lion Chariot - 140
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* 7 Swordmasters - 105
* 7 Swordmasters - 105
* 2xRBT - 200
* 2xGE - 100
Total: 2249
I did a lot of playtesting of Archmage led armies and I must say that the 9PD restriction is killing me. I am considering this version now, as last ditch attempt to make a working army under these rules.
* Archmage, lvl 4, 2xdispel scrolls, silver wand, ring of fury - 350
* Noble, BSB, AoC, Dragon Horn, GW - 168 - to make the spears more fighty and to help me vs fear causers - 1 failed charge sometimes has costed me the game
* Noble, steed, da, sh, starlance, ToL - 155 - i need something reliable to take out war alter, the black coach or a nasty BSB with a banner that makes all enemy units stubborn
* 19 Spears, FC - 221
* 10 Archers - 110
* 6 DP, standard, champion, skeinsliver, banner of Sorcery - 295
* 6 DP, standard, Banner of Ellyrion - 215
* Lion Chariot - 140
* Tyranoc Chariot - 85
* 7 Swordmasters - 105
* 7 Swordmasters - 105
* 2xRBT - 200
* 2xGE - 100
Total: 2249
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
I would probably take BoH AM with banner of sorcery and a caddy to such a tourny.
It gives you very clear cut option of magic tactics - if you roll 1 with BoS, your AM has 7 dice. in such a case i would use 1-2 spells and drain magic with my caddy . With a 2-3 its a clear 2 4dice spells with AM.
i would support it with 2x Eagles and Bolters, 2x10 archers and a big PG block, with chariots/DPs for support. BSB with reaver bow i would put either in the PG or on a tiranoc chariot for a 360 arc. Shadow Warriors optional for marchblocking.
This sort of list gives you in my opinion the best versatility - Cowers against dragon armies, metal against chaos mortals/dwarves/steam tanks, and so forth. You will get plenty of magic through and will probably block all incoming magic with 5 dice and 2 scrolls.
With this i mainly fear O&G that would dreadfully outnumber me or Dwarf Gunlines. But other than that, Magic has an answer to everything.
It gives you very clear cut option of magic tactics - if you roll 1 with BoS, your AM has 7 dice. in such a case i would use 1-2 spells and drain magic with my caddy . With a 2-3 its a clear 2 4dice spells with AM.
i would support it with 2x Eagles and Bolters, 2x10 archers and a big PG block, with chariots/DPs for support. BSB with reaver bow i would put either in the PG or on a tiranoc chariot for a 360 arc. Shadow Warriors optional for marchblocking.
This sort of list gives you in my opinion the best versatility - Cowers against dragon armies, metal against chaos mortals/dwarves/steam tanks, and so forth. You will get plenty of magic through and will probably block all incoming magic with 5 dice and 2 scrolls.
With this i mainly fear O&G that would dreadfully outnumber me or Dwarf Gunlines. But other than that, Magic has an answer to everything.
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
assuming you get the proper spells
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Skaven: A-bom+Doomwheel+Plague Furnace+Grey Seer on Bell+rest.
Still feeling so confident?
Still feeling so confident?
Blue
I value knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
I value knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
You just can not take all the skaven goodies in etc, look above. Well, abo can be rbt shot, flammable magiced or magic bowed. Frenzy furnace can be handled with 50 pts eagle or reaver unit. Wheel can be dragoned or shot. Bell mainly can be ignored with drain magic (seer) or combo kicked with almost anything.
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Of course, my list and probably every other list will have problems with the cheesiest lists possible. But what my list offers is versatility of magic with little limitiations while still maintaining a powerful magic def, shooting phase and CC phase.
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
These ETC rules are killing me . I cannot make an infantry rooster that satisfies me..
Drifting ever closer to my dragon....
Drifting ever closer to my dragon....
Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Yes, you have a problem indeed. How about a build around BotS AM. Large targets are somewhat usual in etc. Have not seen such builds yet. So something like
Lvl3+seer+BoTS
lvl2+2xscroll+wand
Bsb+GW+AoC+GoC
1-2 x10 archers
0-1 lion banner FC spear block
0-1 War/sorcery banner FC pg block
0-1 Balance banner FC lion block
Some DP with one sorcery banner also war,lion,ellyrian if sorcery taken by pg
0-1 one lion chariot or several tiranocs
0-1 some 5 musician Reavers
0-1 5 SW
2 Rbts
Eagle(s)
Lvl3+seer+BoTS
lvl2+2xscroll+wand
Bsb+GW+AoC+GoC
1-2 x10 archers
0-1 lion banner FC spear block
0-1 War/sorcery banner FC pg block
0-1 Balance banner FC lion block
Some DP with one sorcery banner also war,lion,ellyrian if sorcery taken by pg
0-1 one lion chariot or several tiranocs
0-1 some 5 musician Reavers
0-1 5 SW
2 Rbts
Eagle(s)
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Looks cool to me.
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
AM BOTS doesnt work in practise. Your mage always needs to keep moving to stay alive and cast spells, so thats -1 to hit, and then -1 for likely long range. Hitting on 5s = 2 hits a game, assuming he lives to the end, and without the mobility to get flank shots or see prime targets.
I say go for the dragon. There isnt anyone I know who doesnt think HE are strong enough in ETC without a star dragon.
I say go for the dragon. There isnt anyone I know who doesnt think HE are strong enough in ETC without a star dragon.
For the dwarfs, there was only this. Hammerson met Grombrindal’s gaze, and the White Dwarf nodded slowly. If it must be done, let it be done well. Whether they were dead or alive, that was the only way dwarfs knew how to do anything.
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
And Grombrindal said "10 from the back, yeah?"
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
Sure it's a luxury but he's not missing any items he really needs once the spell selection's sorted out. I'd be looking to buff my shooting with magic.
Have to agree about the Dragon though and it's all the fault of the magic cap. SCGT for instance has a nine-die cap and DE lists with Dragon and still full magic have been submitted in droves.
Have to agree about the Dragon though and it's all the fault of the magic cap. SCGT for instance has a nine-die cap and DE lists with Dragon and still full magic have been submitted in droves.
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Re: Mustering the host for Uprising 2010 under ETC rules
You forget from your 2 hits equation that the mage does not have to move or shoot to a long range always and the mage can 'stand and shoot'. Also one must calculate the large target +1 to shoot bonus. How many the most efficient ETC-armies are without a large target? I think without any statistical calculations the hits go at least in average to 3 per game. These extra hits could decide, if the steam-tank can operate or thirster can charge. I take gladly even two bolter hits more to a thirster as I do not have to save that much from magic. You could play the AM with lvl4+BoTS+fury, this gives you full power dices with lvl2 (2xscroll+wand) and without sorcery banner (save some points). The drawback is that the AM has only 4 random spells.AM BOTS doesnt work in practise. Your mage always needs to keep moving to stay alive and cast spells, so thats -1 to hit, and then -1 for likely long range. Hitting on 5s = 2 hits a game
Also why you have to move always with AM, if you stick your mage to a bunker like FC WL/PG unit. Shoot just something that comes to line of sight, or rotate the unit to shoot large targets with the same 4+ possibility. If you pair this bunker BotS AM with two bolters, two tiranocs and a lion chariot. Greater demons and dragons are welcome to get points from the AM.