2250 Help against WoC/Skaven/Brets

[Gildor777]

I posted this over in Tactics, but it probably makes more sense here. I am in the top tier of my escalation league, and will be facing WoC/Skaven/Bret for the title. There is a decent amount of money involved, so I don't expect any punches to be pulled. I would like to keep a somewhat similar list for all 3 opponents, but I don't mind switching items around a bit or changing one special infantry unit for another. I know at 1500 these guys took:

WoC- 2 big blocks of warriors, 2 units of marauder horse, hell cannon, unit of dogs, unit of knights
Skaven- the last 2250 tourney he brought an Abom, Wheel and Furnace along with all the regular foot troop goodies. Probably no Seer on a bell, but storm banner is almost certain, as is plague monks
Bret- 3-4 units of knights (2 realm, 1 questing, 1 grail) Knights errant, unit of pegasus knights, 15 skirmished bows, trebuchet, block of men-at-arms

Keep in mind that these guys will also likely have a basic army to face all 3 opponents, so while I won't tailor specifically to them, they won't be specifically tailoring to me.

I need some help. I don't play many games at 2250, and these are probably 2 of the 3 armies that I have the hardest time against. Ideas on a build and or tactics would be greatly appreciated. I have access to anything and everything in the list (though only 1 dragon)

[mcpolle]

Persoanlly I would say that MAGIC ,is going to be your best friend here, is there any limit on PD?????

Polle

[geoguswrek]

i agree with polle... Magic magic more magic.

[mcpolle]

Against WOC, you have Metal, and that is just gravey there

Against Skaven, in my opinion, I would take fire, you get the two fireballs that are good on the Abomination, (it only needs the one wound to stop it coming back)
Burning head, for those panic checks, wall of fire for any big blocks, or even the Furnace unit, giving them lots of wounds if they start moving, and they have to keep moving.

Against bretts, you have several choices, you can have Metal, for the no AS, or beasts cowers to keep any big units staying put, personally I would go metal, and snipe his characters.
Also your bolt throwers are gravey here, -2 AS, and only a 6+ Ward, your eagles will be busy here as well, also for once maybe some reavers for more redirecting.

Hope that helps a little.

polle

[Gildor777]

Ya, I was leaning towards magic, since I think that the only other option is probably a Star Dragon, and I am non that confident of it doing all that well.
I am not expecting a lot of magic coming my way, the most will probably come from WoC with at least 1 wizard on a disk.

Has anyone had luck with a Prince, L2 L2 setup with Prince with RGoH and Dusk (plus other stuff), and Ring/Wand and Seer/Stone on the level twos and the B. of Sorcery floating around? Either that or Archmage, L2, BSB? Again, I am not sure how much defense I will face...

[PGP]

Both of your options are ok, you could even take three lvl2 in addition to prince. You get the best options to three lvl2 -> RoF+wand, seer+scroll and jewel+scroll+GoC. GoC is great keeping white lions in order. IMO 5 DP is the best sorcery banner carrier. Also the WL block of 13-14+ with balance banner seem to find always room in my lists (ok, the balance banner WL and sorcery banner DP seem to be a small cliché in my comments). You could take a steed prince with HoF and either of magic bows. Add there some eagles/reavers, core archers, rbt:s, shadow warriors and chariots and even extra heavy cav you have a decent ranged attack list. This should break havoc to your opponent.

[Sashimoto]

If there are no DE, it would be reasonable to take an archmage with the Book, and a caddie.

[Gildor777]

PGP, the problem I see with a prince and 3 L2s is that ties up a ton of points in characters and leaves me with not a lot of points for the inevitable combats that will come (there is no way of avoiding combat against skaven and bret, chaos I might be able to lead around for awhile). I didn't think about the Book of Hoeth though, what would you take for magic with him? I would be afraid of not having beast cowers available, since the rest of the Beasts list is pretty weak.

I am leaning towards:
Prince w/RGoH, Jewel of Dusk, Sword of Might, Phoenix, on a BESt., DA, Sh 286 (other option is put him on foot with Tem. Gauntlets, DA, GW-261)
L2 w/ ring, wand 185
L2 w/ seer, power stone 185

10 archers 110
10 spears 90

6 Dragon Princes 180
16 PG w/ FC, Gem, B. of Sorcery (Prince goes here) 330
14 SM w/ sb, m, Loec, Balance 289
10 WL w/ m 156
Tir. Ch 85
3 RBT 300
Eagle 50

[Maxl Rose]

Hey there! here is my two cents

The RGoH/Jewl of dusk combo is cool I must admit but IMHO the bow of the seafarer is more reliable. With the princes BS it is a punishing str6, penitrating D3wounds weapon that cant be stoped is your prince is on something fast moving you can get turne 2 maby 1 flank shots on knights and forget about mages wondering about seeing as how the princes hits single man sized models on like a 2 at long range.
Well somethign to think about

Maxl Rose

[Gildor777]

Maxl, if you did that would you put the Prince on an Eagle or leave him on horse? I could put him on an Eagle if I drop an RBT, and I can also add in either a 2nd eagle as rare, or pump up the PG by 1 and WL by 2

[Sashimoto]

I didn't think about the Book of Hoeth though, what would you take for magic with him? I would be afraid of not having beast cowers available, since the rest of the Beasts list is pretty weak.

Take a lore with a lot of damage dealing spells. Also, shadow is very good for such archmage, as I was told. As for beast cowers... you fear the abomination, right? Burn it with lore of fire!

[Maxl Rose]

I would say leave him on a horse for the added AS, maby a non-barded horse 18" movement is almost like flying and he wont get the +1 to hit the eagle cause

What is your plan with the WL? it looks like them and the sword masters will serve the same purpose, maby you could drop them swap a RBT for eagle and get another unit of DP

I dont have my rule book with me, does the standard of balance make units unbreakable like dwarven slayers? is that what immune to phscology means

[SpellArcher]

I dont have my rule book with me, does the standard of balance make units unbreakable like dwarven slayers? is that what immune to phscology means

Nope, means they ignore Fear, Terror and Panic and are unaffected by certain spells and abilities, plus they can't flee charges. They take Break tests as normal.

[Gildor777]

Balance also means that the rats and knights that hit the unit lose frenzy. That is the big part for me--less attacks coming back, and I shouldn't be fleeing with them anyways.

The WL are meant to hold a flank for a couple turns against XX Whereas the Swords are hoping to chop through a unit. I thought about giving them Lion St. to make sure fear/terror won't break them, but I don't know where to get the points. I could drop an RBT for another eagle, and then give them Lion, but I don't know if losing the RBT is worth that.

I am still undecided about leaving the Prince as is, or switching the RGoH/Jewel to Bow of Seafarer. It might come down to what I am facing as far as the other armies. Again, changing an item or two is ok, switching the whole list around is not. If I do switch him to the Bow, I will prob. drop the RBT as stated above. I am hoping to get a game in on Monday to try out the list.

[SpellArcher]

I think the Lion Std is key to the Lions doing their job properly.

I'd drop a Dragon Prince, maybe the Gem of Courage or some kit from your lord perhaps.

[yellowcommissar]

I don't believe the Standard of Balance will work versus the WoC banner that grants Frenzy (Banner of Rage?).

I think that taking the same list against all three armies will be difficult as in my opinion a Star Dragon would be best versus both Chaos and Brettonians but Archmage is better versus Skaven.

Great Eagles are huge against all three, I would consider 2 RBT and 2 Eagles. They can lure the Frenzy units, they can go after warmachines, redirect Knights, etc..

I would take tooled up Lord on Star Dragon. Bow of the Seafarer can take an opponent by surprise here as most Star Dragon Lords will have Armour of Caledor, Vambraces of Defense combo. Obviously not best versus Skaven, but Star Dragons eat Knights up. Even frontal charges can be good here if combined with Lion Chariots.

Good Luck.

[SpellArcher]

I don't believe the Standard of Balance will work versus the WoC banner that grants Frenzy (Banner of Rage?).

Agreed but I still think it's a good pick for the ITP if nothing else.

[Gildor777]

I agree taking the list against all 3 opponents will be tough--however, all 3 armies are in the same boat, and this is the way our escalation league has been playing. Making the best with what I can do.

I will have to seriously consider dropping a DP for Lion on the Lions. I will prob. drop the 3rd RBT against Skaven in exchange for an Eagle and a few extra troops. Against Bret. and Chaos, I want the extra shots unless I ultimately go with the Seafarer bow, in which case I would have a 3rd RBT anyways.

[Gildor777]

So I got a practice game in today against the Skaven opp. He ran 2 blocks of clanrats, a block of plague monks with a furnace, 2 units of rats, a unit of slaves, a unit of rat ogre things, a doomwheel, and an Abom.

I got run off the table. The doomwheel walked up one flank, the abom the other while the furnace and 2 clanrat units clogged the middle. The abom. took a full on charge of Dragon Princes, laughed, killed 3 and then ran the unit down. It then proceeded to charge my Phoenix Guard with Prince, and ate the Prince (rolled a 2 or 3 for the random attack), knocked off a couple other PG, and ran them down. The wheel fried the chariot I sent towards it, then killed a bolt thrower, a few white lions and such before I called it a game. His big blocks in the middle never made combat.

I did knock the priest off the furnace on my first turn with a single bolt thrower shot. I paid in return having one of my Level 2s killed with an IR warp lightning the next turn.

I simply don't know what to take now. I am really thinking a star dragon list might be my only option. He is not planning on taking the Storm banner--though he does have a bound item? that does similar. I don't think magic can do enough damage to stop him, and the Abom and wheel (I think) both have MR on them, making Beast Cowers iffy to get off.

[SpellArcher]

I would increase your magic and shooting and target the Rares as a priority. Hang back and frustrate the Furnace with light stuff.

Easier said than done I know!

[dabber]

I got run off the table.

You didn't take enough magic and you didn't target your ranged stuff properly. The top target of ALL magic is the abomination. NOTHING wants to be in combat with it. Avoid it at all costs.
One chariot near the doomwheel won't work. You need at least two chariots and perhaps an Eagle or cavalry unit to absorb the shooting. You can charge the doomwheel with the DPs too, although I'd want war banner on them before trying that.
Deal with the two monsters before worrying much about the infantry, except maybe to march block/bait them. You had no reason to move forward against that Skaven army, so you stay back and wait for him.

I did knock the priest off the furnace on my first turn with a single bolt thrower shot. I paid in return having one of my Level 2s killed with an IR warp lightning the next turn.

Nice to get lucky there, but if that luck had been applied to the abomination or doomwheel you would be better off.
Why was your wizard outside of a unit? You've got several little units the Mages can stand around in.

[Gildor777]

Fair criticisms, but a couple replies. The mage was out of the unit because the spears had turned around to potentially stop an infiltrating unit of gutterrunners (which I forgot to mention he had) from rampaging through my RBTs the next turn. The unit of archers would have left the other mage out of range on the first turn. I did try to target stuff at the Abom, but it also has magic resistance which helps stop stuff thrown at it. Basic magic missiles are wounding on 6s, and he still gets a regen roll if its not fire (One mage had beasts trying to get cowers).

As for the doomwheel, I don't have 2 chariots plus a unit of DPs to feed it, and if the eagle is soaking up wounds, he isn't march blocking. And since he gets to decide where it ends up AFTER the dice roll for distance, he can fry pretty much what he wants.

Trust me, I ignored the infantry blocks, but it didn't matter since my stuff couldn't get through those 2 on the flanks anyways.

[Marinero]

I agree with Dabber - the best strategy would have been to stay back 2-3 turns and wear him down with shooting and magic before you enter combat.

Also, I have a feeling that you did not combo charge, but fed your units to him one by one?

Finally, while a warrior-mage prince can be good in comped, friendly environments, he is definitely not something to take in cut throat competitive games. Either go with the seafarer bow, sword of might, helm of fortune (ot temakador's gauntlets, ToL), dragon prince kit, or gear him purely as a tank - starlance, ToL, helm of fortune, guardian phonix.

Another suggestion - if DoW are allowed, swap one of the RBTs with a DoW cannon - it is extremely good. I do this in all formats that allow it. The cannon would be great against brets, woc and the scaven monsters. Just need to practice guessing the range.

Your list comes to 2221 points, you could use the points to upgrade the spears to archers - that would be a good move against skaven and marauders of chaos, and can also help if the bret player brings peasants for support. Or you could drop a PG model and give the DPs a sb and the Banner of Ellyrion.

Finally, I do feel that you magical set up is insufficient, I would definitely advise you to go with a lvl 4 and a lvl 2, as magic would give you the most against the 3 opponents that you will meet.

Good luck.
M

[dabber]

I did try to target stuff at the Abom, but it also has magic resistance which helps stop stuff thrown at it. Basic magic missiles are wounding on 6s, and he still gets a regen roll if its not fire (One mage had beasts trying to get cowers).

The abomination is T5, you wound on 5s.

[Gildor777]

The list I have posted comes to 2246.
No, I tried to combo charge, but I failed a couple key terror/fear tests also

The Abom is T5? Hmmm, will have to remember that.

I am leaning towards a list that looks something like:

L4 w/Fury, Wand, Scroll
L2 w/Seer, PS
Noble w/Reaver, Ench Sh, GW, DA (gives me option for good save or high S attacks)

10 archers 110
10 spears 90
5 DP w/ Sorcery 230
15 PG w/ Ch, SB, Warbanner, Gem of Courage 271
14 WL w/ FC Lion St. 265
Tir Ch 85
12 SM w/ Ch. 192
3 RBT 300
Eagle 50

I could switch the warbanner and sorcery placements.
Alternatively I could drop the SM and Tir. Ch. and get 2 Lion Chariots in return.
I don't know if our league allows DoW. If it does, a cannon is certainly a wonderful idea, but I somehow doubt it.

The other thought I had was a Stardragon list, since I won't face much shooting outside of the Treb and archers by the Bret. player. But, I have rarely if ever played one, and am not sure I want to start now with competitive matches upcoming.

[Marinero]

The list looks good. Some points:
* If you plan to go with only one DS, better give it to the lvl2 and give the lvl 4 the PS, or even 2 if you can get the points.
* WL can go 12 with FC and Lion banner - that would be enough for them to hold ground
* Switch the Banner of sorcery to the PGs. It is way too valuable for your set up to risk it on the DPs, and also keeping the DPs cheap will make you use them more aggressively
* Do give the SM the banner of Balance - it will really help vs frenzied and hatred troops, and also will make them stay.
* Sticking the BSB noble in the PGs will compensate them for the loss of the warbanner and will also give them some high strength attacks, thus making the unit more killy

Something like this:
* AM, lvl 4, fury, silver wand, power stone - 330
* lvl 2, seerstaff, scroll - 185
* Noble, BSB, reaver bow, da, enchanted shield, GW - 174

* 10 archers - 110
* 10 Spears - 90
* 5 DPs - 150
* 15 PG, sb, champ, BoSorcery - 299
* 12 WL, sb, champ, Lion Banner - 229
* 12 SM, sb, champ, Banner of Balance - 249
* Tyranoc Chariot

*3xRBTs - 300
* Great Eagle - 50
Total: 2251 - you have to shove off a point

[SpellArcher]

I think part of the problem is you have three smallish, expensive-ish units of elite infantry. Skaven are great at killing infantry blocks.

I would consider swapping Enchanted Shield for Talisman of Loec. It's a better defence IMHO.

Banner of Sorcery would normally be better on the PG but they are small and War Banner helps them out. I guess Marinero's BSB suggestion deals with this issue in part.

[dabber]

I think part of the problem is you have three smallish, expensive-ish units of elite infantry. Skaven are great at killing infantry blocks.

Skaven certainly are great at killing infantry, but they are good at killing elven cavalry too. Keeping the units small slightly attenuates that weakness, in my opinion. Skaven do have real trouble killing monsters, assuming you can avoid your dragon getting shot by the doomwheel.

You really don't need dragon armour when you know you are facing skaven. Save the 2 points.

[Gildor777]

Dabber, I agree, DA to HA will get the list to the point limit. I will also switch the PS and DS around--I don't think I need the second scroll, from what I know of what I am facing, the most magic will come from WoC, or 2 L2 from skaven. 5 DD and a scroll should be enough.

The way the league is set up, with lists being more or less set for each tier, necessitates the small elite blocks. Big blocks of spears would be great against skaven, but would do absolutely nothing against Bret. or WoC. I have to compromise here, and I think this is the way to go.

I like the Tal. of Loec on the BSB, but it immediately drops him to half wounds which if combat goes more than 1 turn makes him extremely vulnerable. I usually run it on the SM champ to make him into a suicide hero killer. If I keep the Noble without BSB, I can give the SM champ Loec, and add a one special.