Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

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Jaldur
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Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#1 Post by Jaldur »

I feel like my lists could use a few minor tweaks, and where better to ask than on Ulthuan.net?

There's 2 lists. One which is my 'standard', and another which is my 'fun' list.

Standard 2000pts - I want this one to be manouverable, quick, and pack a punch in both combat and magic
Archmage 360 (1640)
- Lvl 4, Book of Hoeth

Mage 175 (1465)
- Lvl 2, 2 Dispel Scrolls

20 Spearmen 225 (1240)
- Full Command, Warbanner

20 Spearmen 205 (1035)
- Full Command

15 Swordmasters of Hoeth 330 (705)
- Full Command, Skeinsliver, Banner of Sorcery

5 Shadow Warriors 80 (625)

Tiranoc Chariot 85 (540)

6 Dragon Princes of Caledor 225 (315)
- Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Ellyrion

5 Ellyrion Reavers 112 (203)
- Spears, Bows, Musician

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers 200 (3)

Power Dice: 8+D3
Dispel Dice: 5
Models: 76

Fun 2000pts - Quick, hitty, and still a very good magic phase. Still need to obtain three more chariots first though
Prince 457 (1543)
- Griffon, Great Weapon, Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Gem of Hoeth

Dragon Mage 435 (1108)
- Star Dragon, Lvl 2, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury

Mage 170 (938)
- Lvl 2, Jewel of the Dusk, Dispel Scroll

10 Archers 110 (828)

10 Archers 110 (718)

7 Dragon Princes of Caledor 290 (428)
- Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Sorcery

Tiranoc Chariot 85 (343)

Tiranoc Chariot 85 (258)

Tiranoc Chariot 85 (173)

Tiranoc Chariot 85 (88)

Tiranoc Chariot 85 (3)

Power Dice: 8+D3
Dispel Dice: 5
Models: 35
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SpellArcher
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#2 Post by SpellArcher »

Well I like the first list. It's just more balanced and interesting IMHO.
Jaldur wrote:I want this one to be manouverable, quick
I think three blocks is too much if this is your aim. In fact I'm a bit suspicious of these as you have no BSB and no psych protection.
Jaldur wrote:Lvl 2
This is questionable with Hoeth IMHO. Any IF from the Book will see the Lvl2's spells being stopped by dispel dice at once.
Jaldur wrote:Skeinsliver,
FTW!

I like the attempt to get by without eagles. You have enough substitutes I think. Usually I don't suggest specific changes but here's what I would do:

Drop naked Spears, Lvl2 upgrade, Ellyrion, Dragon Prince.

Take BSB, 10 Archers, Lion Std (SM), move Sorcery to DP's.

I think that's roughly the same points.
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Sturen
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#3 Post by Sturen »

If you buy that many tiranoc chariots then I will buy some of the lions of you :D

The lists... :D

First List
So yeah, drop the level 2 upgrade on the first list, the AM will use up very few dispel dice and your little mage won't have a chance, make him a caddy instead :)
Drop a unit of spears and get some archers instead, with 2 RBT and no archers you have very little shooting and you save 100 points as well :D Keep the warbanner one
I would drop a SM down to 15 and run them 2x7 or even split into two smaller units. The BoS is problematic :D you need it to be somewhere durable and SM arent the most durable home. The DPs like BoE and you have no other home for it :S Keep it on your SM I suppose but its not ideal. Then I recommend fitting in a BSB and some eagles, drop the shadow warriors for an eagle probably and then put the spare points for your BSB fund :lol:

Second List
Dragon mage on star dragon? :lol: I think that you should just go minimum magic on this list, a level 1 caddy is a good choice as well as your DM. Are you sure you dont want to improve your griffon to a dragon, dual dragon is so fun :lol: The DP unit is a little big I think, maybe drop one, but with BoS then it could be okay :D And the chariots :D that will look intimidating, haha I have two terror causers and 5 chariots and can still fit in an average of 10 PD xD

So nice lists overall :)
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Cythis
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#4 Post by Cythis »

Generally speaking I like the lists and the direction you are going. :) I would suggest some changes though.
In the first list I agree that the swords are too fragile to hold the banner of sorcery. They will already be the target of a barrage of shooting and magic without it if you run them in a single unit of that size. I would swap the locations of ellyrion and sorcery so that the swords ignore difficult terrain. As a dangerous m5 ranked unit vulnerable to shooting and magic they benefit greatly from the added flexibility of moving through terrain and taking cover from shooting and magic with terrain.
I have been using a somewhat similar list lately. The idea behind it is for units to work in tandem with one another. I don't take any really supped up units that are intended to win combats solo. This way any unit can be sacrificed to aid the others in setting up the combined charges they need to win. The list also has significant, but not stacked, magic and shooting phases. Both of these phases is likely to assist in my overall control of the battle with eliminating enemy support units and shooters, but again can be destroyed or roll poorly without the overall battle plan being ruined. I also have the banner of sorcery which breaks this theme a little bit, but, again magic does not form the crux of my plans. I find that magic, while potentially devastating, often fails against the odds at the least opportune times. Even with the book of Hoeth, one probably shouldn't bank the game on getting a certain spell off, or fail to set up a contingency plan for if the spell does not get through.
I think that taking both a lvl 4 and lvl 2 with the BoS in a 2k format forces you to count on getting off certain spells to much. I would drop the Lvl 2 for a BSB with Helm of Fortune and Sword of Might (and maybe gem of courage or talisman of protection if you care to spend the points). This will give you a mobile means of supporting your troops in any area of the field with Cr or re-roll break tests. This BSB can also hold up some combat characters that would otherwise tear through your fragile elves, and serve a unit in his own right, charging and taking down support units/shooters and holding up and grinding down MSU units of knights (or knight like demon things) with relative impunity to the damage they do, and with reasonable assurance of holding in combat. And honestly who doesn't have most if not all of those target units in his/her list.
I would also not take dedicated harassment units like reavers and shadow warriors personally. The thing is they are not really faster than our msu shock units, but are easier to kill and much less effective at anything else besides harassment. High elves can field fast shock units capable of performing devastating charges (when in tandem with other units). These units are also relatively cheap and disposable, and so can be used sacrificially in much the same way as reavers or SWs would be. I would swap the reavers and SWs for more tiranocs or msu dps. I would also consider dropping a couple infantry models to finance picking up some archers, which, despite being stupidly over-pointed relative to any shooting unit released since something like mid-sixth edition #-o , are still useful in eliminating lightly armoured support that will mess with your plans to no end.

P.S. the second list looks cool, but i don't have much experience with anything remotely like it. I think the characters are great except that i would put seer on the second lvl 2. The right 2 spells will put much more pressure on the opponent than 1 extra die. I would also probably drop some chariots and get some more unit variation with another DP unit (perhaps drop 1 DP from the Sorcery unit to finance this), and maybe some infantry.
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#5 Post by SpellArcher »

Cythis wrote: I would drop the Lvl 2 for a BSB
The problem is defence I think with four dice and no scrolls.
Cythis wrote:The thing is they are not really faster than our msu shock units, but are easier to kill and much less effective at anything else besides harassment.
To some extent with Reavers. Shadow Warriors though are a different animal entirely. I'm amazed to see a WE player argue against skirmishers!

:)
Cythis
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#6 Post by Cythis »

SpellArcher wrote:
Cythis wrote: I would drop the Lvl 2 for a BSB
The problem is defence I think with four dice and no scrolls.
Cythis wrote:The thing is they are not really faster than our msu shock units, but are easier to kill and much less effective at anything else besides harassment.
To some extent with Reavers. Shadow Warriors though are a different animal entirely. I'm amazed to see a WE player argue against skirmishers!

:)
1. Well yeah I would probably drop BOH for seer or sw + scrolls, and then either RoF or Dragonhorn or Sacred Insence ( Dragonhorn saved literally 3 units in one of my recent games). I don't rate the book that much specifically because it requires both a BoS unit and a support mage who probably won't be casting very much. Its an awesome item sometimes but it is really damn expensive. If I were to take the book, I would take the second mage as a lvl 2 with seer + scroll and cast spells with this mage first. This way the opponent can choose to stop or let through a good spell, and then the lvl 4 can cast on normal amounts of dice if the opponent has burnt dispel dice, or throw a bunch of dice to try for IF when the lvl2 is let through (or if facing Hotek or the puppet. That f%^^%ing puppet has killed my archmage 3 times literally in 1 miscast. Sucked into warp, sucked into warp, Miscast and hit with a comet on my opponents ensuing turn #-o .) This is for a friendly list though, and it is possible to make 4 dd work vs a friend who isn't going to be a dick and have 12 pd counts or DE.

2. You are also correct here I am drastically oversimplifying. There are numerous tactics available to both fast cav and skirmish scouts respectively that tiranocs and MSU DPs cannot do. With fast cav you can get into weird and annoying places so that you can set up flee moves where your opponent will in no way be able to catch you. You can also use the added movement to completely prevent charges at a choke-hold where the opponents troops would need to wheel through one another to charge. With skirmish scouts you can march block early, WM hunt, and redirect into terrain etc. I guess I think that with high elves one does not really have the luxury of purchasing said units because of the expensive nature of the army and the semi-overpointedness of high elf harassment units. I mean, with dark elves you would be insane not to take shades and dark riders with rxbs unless you were trying to be friendly. The thing is, though, that dark riders are core, and shades are under-priced and fulfill both shooting and combat roles better than most armies' mainline units (dark riders do this too actually). With high elves if you take these units you do not get units that can fight in combat or shoot in any significant way, and you also have to buy expensive core, and your specialized infantry is very expensive as well.

I think that high elf chariots/ msu knights can fulfill a lot more of the roles performed by fast cav or scouts than, conversely the scouts or fast cav can perform the roles available to the knights and chariots. This is not true of every army (see dark elves), and I think it is an especially big deal in an army with expensive units like high elves.

3. Hehe yeah it is funny seeing how I've played with primarily fast cav and skirmishers for many years. Maybe I'm biased against them cause i want to try something new :o lol. But wood elves are a different thing altogether really. They are a pretty weird army that does almost nothing in a straightforward fashion. Like, the skirmishers in wood elves are actually the mainline units. They are ITP so they couldn't be used for harassment roles even if you wanted them to. Largely ranked glade guard are the multi-role unit that serve as harassment/redirection/screening/ etc and skirmishers are there to kill things.
Wood elves are a good example of what I am talking about though. Even if one takes a lot of combat units with wood elves, one is not paying all that much as ranks are not required. When the army primarily consists of fighty infantry that cannot flee and doesn't break the bank, overpriced units like way watchers, scouts, and glade riders are a very viable option because its not like one has to make the choice of fielding them instead of the combat units. One actually kind of has to field them in order to actually get good charges off with m5 infantry vs a decent opponent.
With high elves, however, it is an either or decision, zero sum, decision.
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#7 Post by SpellArcher »

Cythis wrote:1. Well yeah I would probably drop BOH for seer or sw + scrolls, and then either RoF or Dragonhorn or Sacred Insence ( Dragonhorn saved literally 3 units in one of my recent games). I don't rate the book that much specifically because it requires both a BoS unit and a support mage who probably won't be casting very much. Its an awesome item sometimes but it is really damn expensive. If I were to take the book, I would take the second mage as a lvl 2 with seer + scroll and cast spells with this mage first. This way the opponent can choose to stop or let through a good spell, and then the lvl 4 can cast on normal amounts of dice if the opponent has burnt dispel dice, or throw a bunch of dice to try for IF when the lvl2 is let through (or if facing Hotek or the puppet. That f%^^%ing puppet has killed my archmage 3 times literally in 1 miscast. Sucked into warp, sucked into warp, Miscast and hit with a comet on my opponents ensuing turn .) This is for a friendly list though, and it is possible to make 4 dd work vs a friend who isn't going to be a dick and have 12 pd counts or DE.
I think the Book's a gambler's item. The set-up with the scroll caddy does fit nicely into a 9PD cap. Lord Anathir has run the Book+Seermage set-up, it's OK I think. I'd always take a scroll but yeah maybe only certain armies will do you if you don't.

These miscast items (plus Becalming etc.) are a problem for the Archmage full stop I think. He's still effective but has to be a lot more careful these days. What I don't get is how many players equate good magic phase with an Archmage blasting away at four-die spells. Yes this can be effective but there are the above problems and there is more than one way to skin a cat. The medium phase can be very effective, especially with good spell selection and a dice battery. Especially considering how cheap it can work out at.

You have a point about the light troops and it's hard to argue against the DE equivalent simply being better for the points. However, I reckon 80pts for a unit of SW's or 85pts for Reavers is not too much to pay. Dead right though that cost-effectiveness is a big headache for HE's. I think the key is to buy exactly the right Core units you need for the list and to make efficiencies where you can (magic phase, magic bows etc..). That said I run Silver Helms instead of Reavers at present but I'm adding Reavers to my all-comers list now to help against certain enemies (Vamps for instance).

I played WE's for 12 years and it taught me how to use skirmishers. Many players don't give SW a chance I feel. Once you use skirmishers game after game you begin to see just how many options you have with them. In a HE list the 360 degree move is golden IMHO. Absolutely they are nothing like WE combat skirmishers but they are rather like Scouts. These tend to get overlooked but I used a unit of 5 for years and found them very useful. Plus the SW's get WS5 and Hatred!
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Flame of the Asuryan
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#8 Post by Flame of the Asuryan »

L2 can work with Book of Hoeth, just make sure the L2 casts first. Now your opponent have to decide if he wants to stop the L2's spell or not, or leave some dice if you do NOT cast with irresistable force. You can give some of your opponents a headache when playing like that...:p.

Would go for

Archmage, Book of Hoeth, L4
Mage, Scroll, Scroll, Silver wand
Somewhere Banner of Sorc
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Jaldur
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#9 Post by Jaldur »

There's some good advice in the thread, and thanks for it, but I reckon I could put some more info into the pot.

1) The second list is, simply, meant to be as far over-the-top as possible. It also has all character slots filled.

2) I rarely choose a lore based upon the damage it can deal. I have virtually no resistance to fear, panic and terror except Ld 9 but if against Vampires/Tomb Kings/Daemons I can take a lore which will help with that. I'm undecided on the book though, as in my last game I only managed one IF with it in my last game (not helped by the fact that my Lvl 2 had Potent of Far and Second Sign and leeched some dice for those)

3) I'll likely be swapped the banners on Dragon Princes and Swordmasters. As much as I like the 16" charge on them in difficult terrain, there Swordmasters would have more use for it as they normally guard a mage.

4) Even without Archers my shooting phase still has some bite. Those 12 shots from the Shadow Warriors, Reavers and Chariot all add-up.

5) No special slots left in that list.

I'll post an updated list in a little while.
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Re: Jaldur's (2!) friendly 2000pt lists

#10 Post by SpellArcher »

Jaldur wrote: I rarely choose a lore based upon the damage it can deal. I have virtually no resistance to fear, panic and terror except Ld 9 but if against Vampires/Tomb Kings/Daemons I can take a lore which will help with that
This can work but I prefer magic standards as they can't be dispelled.

Usually, unless you take direct attack magic to some extent, your opponent can pick and choose his dispels with more comfort IMHO.
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