Re-worked 2250 list. Please help!

[chris_havoc]

Hi! I'd like to know what you guys think of this list. Previously I had another unit of six Dragon Princes with Standard and Musician but traded it out in favour of the two chariots, an extra Phoenix Guard and the Dragonhorn. I found two units of 6 cavalry was too unwieldly for me. Though I would like to know how to use chariots effectively as I've never really used them before. I've read that some people keep them back with the missile units but don' know if this is the best course of action. Thanks in advance.

The list is:

Lord:

Prince
Amulet of Light
Armour of Caledor
Vambraces of Defense
Great Weapon
Star Dragon

Heroes:

Noble
BSB
Dragon Prince Setup
Helm of Fortune
Dragonhorn

Mage
Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll

Core:

15 Spearmen
Full Command
Lion Standard

10 Archers

Special:

16 Phoenix Guard
Full Command
War Banner
Gem of Courage

5 Dragon Princes
Standard and Musician
Banner of Ellyrion

2 Tirianoc Chariots

Rare:

2 Eagles

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

Total: 2250

[kingwrynn]

Prince
Amulet of Light
Armour of Caledor
Vambraces of Defense
Great Weapon
Star Dragon

Quick point, great weapons only give characters +1 str instead of +2 when the character is mounted, you're better off going with a halberd (theres also the option of a lance) since it also does +1 str and costs 6 points less (although by the looks of it you dont exactly have anything to do with 6 more points anyway). You could perhaps toss a longbow on the prince as well if you wanted to go really cheap and use a spear.

[geoguswrek]

No, you take the great weapon in case the dragon dies.

[SpellArcher]

I think your blocks could do with being bigger.

Also the Lvl2 upgrade is not worth it IMHO as he won't get spells off.

[mightyjekka]

Here is my oponion on it. First off drop the dragon-crutch, the standard and magic banner off dragon princes, champion of spear elves, level 2 off mage, the dragonhorn and the two tiranoc chariots.

And include a griffon(I know not dragon but many dark elves use manticore to great effect, as is something I use), 2nd unit of dragon princes, and 2 lion chariots.

This build will give you some aggresivness to use along side griffon. So with 2 lion chariots and 2 units of dragon princes you can actually go on a major offensive, little more cautous to play with griffon but is still a powerful option to use.

[chris_havoc]

Wow! Work sucks I tried to post this whole long post of the new list I came up with last night because I realised I have nothing in the bellow list I know how to use cohessively.

I've come to the realization that the dragon isn't really worth the points. If you play him too aggressively he dies and if you don't play him aggressively enough he's wasted points while at the same time if you play him right you're unlikely to make his points back. The Zombie Dragon in VC worked great for me but the Star Dragon (counter intuitively) doesn't match my play style of calculated and overt aggression.

My VC list is small and consists of everything fast in the army but match each other in speed relatively speaking. In the centre there are ghouls with ghoulkin and blood knights. Who tend to move at roughly the same speed which maintains cohesion while on the flanks I have Dire Wolves and varghulf to rush down the sides. My dragon with the move again bound spell can then move from cover to cover because it's easier for him to pick targets he can be played cautiously and aggressively at the same time. This is what I feel the Star Dragon lacks and I think a unit of Dragon Princes with the Banner of Ellyrion can sort of provide with the ability to strike from cover. So I've come up with a list that's a lot more infantry orientated.

I've also included two level two mages geared for anti-mgic which I know aren't very popular anywhere but my feeling is that against a strong magic phase two is definitely better than one and against a low to nothing magic phase I'm only 'losing' 80 poits of magic items as opposed to the full 175 points if I were to only play one because two mages can actually do something against a list with little magic if that makes sense.

The biggest issue I tried to address in the list below was one of cohession as I implied before. I think my playing style isn't suited to the Star Dragon or I'm just too simple to figure it out so here's the list tell me what you think of it and the comments I make and tell me if I'm thinking like an idiot.

LORD:

Prince:
Great Weapon
Amulet of Light
Armour of Caledor
Vambraces of Defense
I've not seen many Prince builds that weren't on Dragons and I've seen this one on Dragons frequently he's quite hard to kill and quite able to kill. I'll place him in the spearmen to add some bite to them.

HEROES:

Noble:
BSB
Dragon Armour
Sword of Might
Sacred Incense
I know he's kinda soft but he has the initiative to deal with Black Guard trying to hit him first. The Sacred Incense is to add some protection to the Sword Masters he'll join.

Mage:
Level 2
Dispel Scroll
Dispel Scroll
Caddy.

Mage:
Level 2
Annulian Crystal (the one that steals a dice if it's not called that)
Just to add some more magical defense. The more dispel Dice I have the better and the less Power Dice he has the better.

CORE:

Spearmen:
25 w/ FC
Lion Standard
I plan to run these guys 7 wide as an anvil. This means that with the Prince joining them they will have 5 in the back rank giving them the full rank bonuses. 5 static combat res with 21 attacks and 4 strength 6 attacks from the Prince is formidable. Also if they do lose combat resolution they are unlikely to flee because of the banner, Prince's leadership and the BSB's close proximity.

Archers:
10
Just to shoots stuff. They've helped me by taking out organ gun crew twice now.

SPECIAL:

Sword Masters:
20 w/ FC
Standard of Balance
Talisman of Loec
I'm not a fan of fear or panic. These guys are likely to suffer the brunt of shooting and so I've opted to try and protect them from it with sacred incencse and prevent them from panicing with the banner. They'll be run 7x3 with the BSB in them and will be the hammer to the spearmen anvil. They are also likely to stick around for the same reasons as the spearmen. The banner can also take the edge off of a couple of the more scary units in the warhammer world by taking away their hatred and frezy.

Dragon Princes:
6 w/ Standard and Musician
Banner of Ellyrion
These guys will be my dedicated support unit applying or relieving pressure where they're needed. Their mobiliy is very good because of the banner and their movement so they should fulfil this task well.

Tirianoc Chariots:
2
These guys I'm unsure of how to use. One possibility is to keep them back with the missile troops to cover them. Though I'd want to make as much use of their versatility and speed as much as possible and so would probably run them down the flanks to threaten anti-missile troops like fliers and fast cav while also acting as potential flank support or war macine hunters themselves.

RARE:

Great Eagles:
2
I'm not very good with judging fleeing distances yet coming from VC but I get the gist of how to use these guys to redirect and march block the most annoying units in the enemy's forces.

Repeater Bolt Throwers:
2
I really love these things. The range is superb and they're great for dealing with any threat. I generally try to use a concentrated fire approach in conjunction with the archers to maximize my shooting phase.

[geoguswrek]

two big units are unwieldy and hard to use. you've probably gone right with the magic defence level (you need high defence with such an unwieldy force and the two chariots definitely help you get your big blocks into combat.

awfully hig points cost in those masters though.

[chris_havoc]

Yeah for sure they aren't going to be easy to use but I'm OK with that if it's the centre of my army and they move at the same pace. If the terrain's questionable for such a wide frontage I don't have to run them that wide. I am hoping the mages will prove useful the one time I managed to get Drain Magic off with just one mage and it helped a lot. Also the magic defense means less effective magic coming at my big blocks. The Sword Masters are pretty pricey. I've seen one or two lists mentioned in other threads that had good things to say about 7x3 Sword Masters though so I'll give them a bash. If I'm not mistaken which is possible. I'll let you know how they do I'm having a game on Sunday.

[SpellArcher]

This is an offensive infantry list, so I think it needs either a bit more magic or a bit more shooting.

[limkopi]

If you're not mounting your BSB, give him a GW.

A good use of T Chariots are to keep both of them together and threaten light units in the flanks. A charge range of 18 can deter all but flyers.

[Dreadlord Blooay]

I personally think you should just drop the magic lv 2 on the mages and make them magic defense, they just won't have enough pd to pull through. Also, 20 swordmasters? Yes... I feel it to be your choice, but I think you could go a little more MSU with swordmasters and perhaps get a white lion smaller block? Their stubborn, so they won't flee easily. Also, on the spearmen being your anvil, let me say this. Knights. Unless your prince really kicks ass, you probably won't survive many charges from a 7 wide front charge from a good knight unit. (like chaos knights or worse.)

On the whole, I just feel like there is no job a prince can do much better than a noble (a prince can just do more tasks at once), with such a list, an archmage simply seems better, then the lv 2's on your mages will come in handy too.

[SpellArcher]

On the whole, I just feel like there is no job a prince can do much better than a noble

Surviving. IMHO. Oh and Ld10.

with such a list, an archmage simply seems better

I agree with this though.

[chris_havoc]

Two level ones is going to limit the potential to block the magic phase by further risking a failed Drain Magic casting and, when cast, reducing the number of dice a magic heavy list will have to throw at it thereby nullifying the effect of the best anti-magic spell in the game. Granted that's if I don't take an Archmage.

The Prince's leadership is a big thing to consider when he's increasing the chances of passing a test for the Sword Masters and Spearmen by roughly 16.5% which sounds minimal but considering that there's a BSB in the same area of affect being beaten by six (unlikely with a static CR of 5) you'll have to roll a 4 on two dice as opposed to 2. There's only one combination to roll when rolling for 2 where as for rolling 4 there are three 4. 1 and 1, 1 and 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 2 therefore increasing your chances by four times to stick around when severly beaten that's not even taking into consideration of how much that's improved by with the BSB. I don't disagree with you that spearmen are not the best anvil but I think they are made a lot better by leadership 10 and re-rollable break tests. I would dispute that the Prince is so easily replaced by a Noble. The simple reason is the point allowance. High Elves have great defensive items and the Amulet of Light is cheap and means you don't have to choose from the mediocre weapon list. 2+ Re-rollable Armour Save, 4 Magical Strength 6 attacks and a 4+ Ward Save is a pretty decent set of credentials to justify a Prince on foot over a Noble in my opinion. Though the Sword Master unit may be too big but I want to try it out before I discard the idea.

I will have to test the list to see if/why it does need more shooting/magic and what would be worthwhile getting rid of to make the points. I'm also worried about Wraiths and such bugging me around so I like the idea of a magic weapon on my BSB. Though I suppose if I see I'm in danger of being hit by ethereal units I can just run my Prince into the Sword Masters for a turn so I will definitely consider the Great Weapon option.

[geoguswrek]

Granted, leadership ten is very helpful, but the problem with a prince on foot in a block is that hes inherently slow and thus its difficult to force your opponent to let im play. creative use of march blockers and redirectors can keep your two blocks out of the game long enough for an enemy with shooting and magic to really tell. On foot, it is difficult to justify the almost double cost of a prince over a noble. Especially seeing as a noble can have 3s5 attacks, and a 1+ rerolling save which, while worse, is still pretty impressive (for a mere 149 points i believe)

[SpellArcher]

I think the levels on the mages are a moot point. Against medium magic the extra dice on Drain are a good thing. A heavy phase will just dispel both.

Agree completely about how solid the infantry set-up is but as geo says, the problem is getting them into combat. It is very difficult to win with block infantry against an avoidance enemy. To do so you need support elements and that includes good shooting and magic. An Archmage is a better Lord choice than a foot prince because he affects the game more overall. A mounted Prince can get to where he is needed quicker but even here his overall influence is less, unless he rides a Dragon. Having said all that if you like the foot Prince i would give him a go.

The problem with Wraiths is that they will lurk on your flanks in woods etc. making it difficult to get your magic attack units into them.

[chris_havoc]

I played two games yesterday and I got massacred and then did the opposite... to be fair the first game was up against an INSANE Daemon list. No Greater Daemon but a unit of 20 Horrors with two Heralds in it, 15 Plague Bearers with Herald BSB on Palanquin with the Stubborn Banner and assuming always strike last thing, 15 Blood Letters with a Herald on Juggernaut 0+ save and Strength 7, 5 Flesh Hounds, 6 Flamers, 2 bigish units of Furies. I also got very unlucky with some of my rolls. Not an ideal first game I'll admit as I played like a bit of an idiot too. I gave up after having killed 6 Blood Letters his champion hit back and killing blowed my Prince and I couldn't take having failed so many 4+ saves before that.

Second game was a lot better, obviously. It was up against Warriors. Two units of Khorne Knights, small unit of ten warriors, like 22/24 tzeentch chosen with his level 2 and level 4 inside it, two slaanesh marauder horsemen and two warshrines. He's been pretty successful with that list I think so am quite glad I managed to beat him so well. My Spearelf unit racked up the most points thanks to the dragon princes hitting the mage's unit and holding it there for a turn after having done two wounds to his level 4. Because of this the spearmen got that unit, the warshrines, and a unit of knights. Easily making back their points and some. I placed like a bit of a slow kid so the Sword Masters never really got into combat except to help cleanup the unit of knights I mentioned above and ended the game in b2b contact with three surviving knights. All he had left was the knights. I had my full points infantry blocks including bsb + lord and an eagle.

I really enjoyed the list in the second game when I wasn't failing rolls everytime I touched the dice. So I'd like to try it again and see if it's as fun against our club's top dawg who plays Dark Elves.

[chris_havoc]

I was looking at the bsb the other day and decided to mount him on a steed with a lance because the model looks so cool. So I had to get rid of his sword and switch the amulet of light on the lord for the gem of courage. It also made me realise there would only be a need for 18 sword masters with a mounted bsb in there. So i removed three of them and the spearmen champ in order to be able to trade a t chariot for a lion one. My question is if this is a good idea or not and if I should rather trade the talisman of loec or gem of courage? In stead of the champ.

[geoguswrek]

as long as you aren't too worried about characters munching your spears/characters in your spears, thne don't worry about the champion, he isn't too big a deal. on the bsb front, don't plan on putting your bsb in a unit all the time, he is more useful running around solo a lot of the time.

[chris_havoc]

Yeah I decided the amount of sacrifice I'd have to make for a Lion Chariot wouldn't be worth it. So I just used all the extra points on the noble. Gave him a Dragon Prince setup with the Enchanted Sheild and Gem of Courage which balanced me to the same number of points. I played the list with this guy in it and lost pretty hard against the DE player I mentioned somewhere before. :'( I'd managed to keep his Hydra out of the game for 3/4 turns then stupidly decided to pursue some Dark Riders with my Dragon Princes which let him get round the side of my Sword Master block and flame which resulted in 11 Dead Sword Masters. That was the only mistake I made really but it ended up being a huge one. I should have left the Dragon Princes where they were to threaten the Hydra, charged his Black Guard with my Spear Elves, and moved my Sword Masters to counter-charge his Lord's unit of Cold One Knights. I'm a little bit irritated but it taught me a lot and I think the list is decent and a challenge to play but it's fun which is most important. Admittedly it does feel like there is something missing... just spitting out random ideas but do you think a Dragon Mage may trump the two mages I have. Given they're relatively similar in points cost which I'm not sure they are.