Colors of the dragons

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el_horror
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Colors of the dragons

#1 Post by el_horror »

I have a question regarding the different colors of the dragons in Ulthuan.

In simple way, how many different colors have the dragons in Ulthuan? has each color a reason to be that way?

For example, it is possible to find black star dragons? or black color is only suitable for evil black dragons?

I am thinking to convert a princess with a dragon and I like the idea of a purple dragon, some kind of amethyst dragon. Could this be possible?

Thanks.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#2 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

With the loss of the different flavoured dragons in the 7th ed book, I think you have free reign over what colours you use for your dragons now a days.
Feck even my Sun Dragon is Black, but my Star Dragon Clearly has a universe of stars across his wings. Do what ever you think looks best.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#3 Post by el_horror »

I will then do in that way. Thanks!!!!
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#4 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:With the loss of the different flavoured dragons in the 7th ed book, I think you have free reign over what colours you use for your dragons now a days.
Feck even my Sun Dragon is Black, but my Star Dragon Clearly has a universe of stars across his wings. Do what ever you think looks best.
He's a Universe Dragon,... been around as long as the Universe..:3

But on topic; C+P

The Asur have that sense of distaste for the Black Dragons because of their use by the Druchii.
But remember that Kalgalanos the father of all Dragons was Black, and his children were all the colours under the sun.
Also that High Elves have long had an afinity and mastery of all dragon colours/types.
Dragons can be born from any colour, to any colour. So many a Black Dragon would have been born in Ulthuan over the ages, and I dont see the Asur as the type to cull the Dragons simply on their colour. Apart from being very racist, the Dragons are an endangered specie', and the Druchii have made raids on ulthuan in the past to steal their Dragons (the Black ones), so I think that there's enough proof to have them there, even if they wouldn't be used as often as Red, Blue, Green or White Dragons.


And based mainly on the fluff from the SOM book, with my own take on hues etc...

What to call a Dragon
Although there are literally dozens of names for each kind of Dragon, below are some of the most well-known.
Red Dragons
Are also called Fire, Flame, Burning or Blazing Dragons, the greatest of their kind are sometimes known as Doomfire, or Firestorm Dragons.
Red Dragons can be found all over Ulthuan, but tend to live near the volcanic areas in the Annulii, most frequently in and around Caledor, but also in the heated wastes of the Blighted Isle. Most are hues of red, but some can be found in shades of yellow and even orange, some of the strongest can be found in shades of blue. These blue fire Dragons are the most coveted in Ulthuan as they are rare beyond comprehesion and have a mighty and legendary reputation. The Red Dragons of Ulthuan seem to grow lighter in colour as ages pass
and some Ancient Red Dragons are said to be almost white, save for their scales which never alter in colour.
Black Dragons
Are also called Shadow, Night, Dark or Death Dragons, the greatest of their kind are sometimes known as Nightmare Dragons.
Black Dragons are hardly ever, truly black in Ulthuan. They are more often found in sombre dark greys and can sometimes even have a purple tint. These Black Dragons grow darker in shade as time passes with them. They live within the darkest and deepest caves of the Annulii and can often be found in the more heavily dense and dark terrain of Nagarythe.
White Dragons
Are also called Frost, Ice, Snow or Light Dragons, the greatest of their kind are sometimes known as Timefrost, or Frostfire Dragons.
Only within the snow-capped Annulii are where the White Dragons live, as they need the constant cold to grow strong and when the warmer seasons near, they become much less active. White Dragons always seem to have a glow about them, just like snow or ice on the tip of a mountain at first dawn. They are always white, but many have hues and subtle tones of all manner of different colours, while some have an aurora of colours. In Ulthuan, White Dragons glow brighter and gather more colour as they grow ancient.
Green Dragons
Are also called Forest, Tree, Poison or Life Dragons, the greatest of their kind are sometimes known as Venomend Dragons.
Green Dragons are most frequently found in the forests of Avelorn, but are also found in the forests of Chrace and Cothique. They range from a yellowish green, to a deep dark moss in colour and some can have a blend from yellow to green. The Green Dragons of Ulthuan tend to darken in contrast and in colour as they age.
Blue Dragons
Are also called Storm, Lightning, Thunder, or Electric Dragons, the greatest of their kind are sometimes known as Heavenstar Dragons.
Blue Dragons can be found wherever there are thunder storms, but most live around and in the stormy mists off the coasts of Yvresse and Cothique. Many Blue Dragons have been said to flock to a site where the Azyr Winds pool and even follow the impetuous young heaven Mages of Eataine, Ellyrian and some of the other outer Kingdoms. Blue Dragons can range from a deep azure to the brightest blue, some even have pure white scales and wings, like clouds before the storm. Some Blue Dragons grow dark in hue as the centuries and millennia pass, while others grow lighter.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#5 Post by el_horror »

Thanks Asurion for the feedback :wink:
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#6 Post by draxynnic »

Not having SoM myself, could you let us know how much of that is your own conjecture?

The impression I get myself is that Sun Dragons ridden by Dragon Mages are invariably red or at least orange - the "colour of the setting sun". Other Caledorian dragons come in a range of colours, darkening with age - the Caledorian section of the Uniforms and Heraldry book says that Caledorian livery echoes the colours of the dragons. Said book outright states that golds are the rarest, while the popularity of reds and greens in Caledor implies that these are the most common colours (blues being somewhere in between). Purple does not appear in any Caledorian livery that I've found, suggesting that there are no purple Caledorian dragons.

Reading between the lines suggests that dragons are not naturally hatched with black scales in Caledor, but the darkening that comes with age can bring a dragon to having scales that are close to black. The greys, purples, and true blacks of the Dark Elf dragons are probably the result of the dragons having been corrupted by dark magic while in the egg (the Dark Elf book has a couple of mentions of such treatment of captured eggs).
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#7 Post by John Rainbow »

[quote="el_horror"]I am thinking to convert a princess with a dragon and I like the idea of a purple dragon, some kind of amethyst dragon. Could this be possible?/quote]
Purple dragons are cool. Go for it! Your imagination (paint selection?) is the only limit!

My dragon: purple/blue
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#8 Post by el_horror »

Nice colors John :wink:

Draxynnic;

I understand your point. My idea more than a "purple dragon" is something like "amethyst dragon". As I plan to place my army in Avelorn, and knowing that realm is full of magic and very old creatures, I've though; why not a dragon with gem color? like if the dragon have been "irradiated" with magic energy during his sleep. Or maybe an old black dragon, corrupted by dark elves and let wounded and slept for a long time. Maybe the purity of Avelorn or Alarielle has changed the beast and know is a normal or pure dragon, full of hatred against dark elves. Something like that.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#9 Post by Icarion »

sorry for me playing necromancer and reviving a thread (again), but this one is quite interesting and creating a new one seems quite pointless. anyway, without someone posting, forums would be boring... :wink:

1.) does anyone know where Asurion got that summary of dragon-colours from?
2.) as far as i understood the 8th ed dragons, they are most importantly named due their age/and size and not due to their colour. sundragons are said to be "hot tempered", which imho doesnt say, he is red, but that young dragons are more active then their elder brethern.
i dont like the idea of that new names. it sounds like two elven mages, that studied dracology, standing in front of one of these earth-shaking beast (that looks at them, thinking about which one to eat first) babbling stuff like "Master Elanion, what do you think, is this already a moondragon or still a sundragon?" - "Well, my dearest Milariel, as subject A is only 3384,3 inches long and has the yound age of approximatelly 1998years and 289days, which is below 2000 by the way, i would classify it as sundragon..."
WTF???
these names are only interesting for game-terms, when it comes to counting up points. there are young and old dragons and the ones somewhere in between... but calling them like that wouldnt sound really epic! :wink:
3.) @John Rainbow (or if anyone else reading this knows how):
how did you get that colour??? by mixing in some radioactive material, or what?
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#10 Post by Francis »

@Icarion. A lot of what Asurion wrote can be found in the Storm of Magic book (great book, really brought me back to my 5th edition days with all those different monsters) and a lot of that is again taken from the 5th edition battle book which described the different dragon types in some detail. Asurion did make some of it up (the geographical locations of the different types for instance) but most of it makes so much sense that I for one is going to consider the lot of it to be canon.

I am also going to have to get another dragon now so that I can convert a Sea Lord on a storm dragon... and here I was thinking that the Red Guard of Tor Elasor would be my final High elf project...
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#11 Post by Icarion »

the question is, are these different coloured dragons allowed in tournaments and if they are, do they use the firebreathing special rules or the colour-specific breath-weapon?
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#12 Post by Prince of Spires »

Icarion wrote:the question is, are these different coloured dragons allowed in tournaments and if they are, do they use the firebreathing special rules or the colour-specific breath-weapon?
For tournaments a dragon is a dragon is a dragon, regardless of what color it is. In a tournament your dragon has to be one of the 3 choices listed in the HE book (so sun, moon or star). You write down on your roster which it is. Color doesn't matter. You can have a blue sun dragon or a pink stardragon. No guidelines there.

I don't think there are any Storm of Magic tournaments where you can use the colored dragons. But if there are, check with the tournament official. Even in that instance though I think the actual color doesn't matter. As long as you don't have 3 or 4 dragons on the table with mismatching colors that is. So don't call a blue painted dragon green if you also have a green painted dragon on the table which you call frost. That sort of thing.

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Re: Colors of the dragons

#13 Post by draxynnic »

There was mention, in the fluff released around the time of the 7e book (although not in the book itself, unless I missed it on a quick readthrough) of Sun Dragons having scales "the colour of the setting sun". This seems to have been left behind in 8e, though - the Heraldry book makes no distinction, just that younger dragons have brighter, shinier, and, well, newer-looking scales.

Regarding the distinctions between dragon types - there is a fixed determining point between Moon and Sun Dragons. Moon Dragons were old enough to have fought with Aenarion against Chaos, Sun Dragons hatched after the formation of the Great Vortex. Star Dragons are simply unimaginably old even by Elven standards - it's plausible, though, that the dragons themselves set the hierarchy, marked by some equally momentous occasion such as the arrival of the Old Ones.

Incidentally, this hierarchy means that all of the Dark Elf dragons are of an age with Sun Dragons, nicely explaining why they don't get three types.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#14 Post by Icarion »

draxynnic wrote:Incidentally, this hierarchy means that all of the Dark Elf dragons are of an age with Sun Dragons, nicely explaining why they don't get three types.
there GW failed to follow their own fluff, as in that case all DE dragons should have the stats of a sundragon... :mrgreen:

with "different coloured" i also meant different breath-types, but neither rulebook nor armybook has anything about HE drakes doing something else than fire, although it is clearly said, that the hatchling of a red dragon doesnt have to be a red one, so simply dont get it, why they kicked out the other ones.
i cant find my GFs DE-armybook at the moment, but the only dragon with different breathweapon in 8th ed that i remember, is the chaos-dragon where the second head breathes fumes similar to that what was said the green dragons does (S2, no armour saves allowed). i think in friendly games, no one will have a problem, me using a green dragon with S2, no armour saves, while in tournaments chaos or bret players will be whining, that it is not according to armybook.

edit: hierarchy between animals is normally made up by simple size and therefor power. i dont see why dragons should be different in that way.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#15 Post by Prince of Spires »

Icarion wrote: there GW failed to follow their own fluff, as in that case all DE dragons should have the stats of a sundragon...
You're forgetting that DE are not above feeding steroids to their dragons.
Icarion wrote:while in tournaments chaos or bret players will be whining, that it is not according to armybook.
I don't think it would be just those. In a tournament you're supposed to play by all the rules as laid down in the armybook. Otherwise the whole thing just turns into chaos. I would probably complain as well if you pulled that on me in a tournament (though I wouldn't call playing by the rules whining, especially in a tournament setting...). In friendly games, it's free for all, as long as you discuss it with your opponent before the game.
Icarion wrote: hierarchy between animals is normally made up by simple size and therefor power. i dont see why dragons should be different in that way.
Maybe because dragons are highly intelligent beings that live for longer then we have had written history. To get a feeling for their age, translated to our world the young ones (sun dragons) would have been born around the time the great pyramid in Giza was build (around 2500BC). I think we can assume that a being which is smarter then a human and has been around since ancient egypt is not just an animal. After all, humand use all sorts of moments to determine where you fit in a hierarchy. You're an adult when you're 18, you go to school at 6, you retire when you turn 65. When you're 4000+ years old and don't grow weaker with age, age is a bit an irrelevant measure and I can imagine you use a different methode to establish hierarchy. Momentuous world occasions are as good as any.

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Re: Colors of the dragons

#16 Post by daid13 »

Dragons are intelligent so I would say richest/smartest/most influential would be in charge.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#17 Post by Icarion »

rdghuizing wrote:
Icarion wrote: there GW failed to follow their own fluff, as in that case all DE dragons should have the stats of a sundragon...
You're forgetting that DE are not above feeding steroids to their dragons.
cool, didnt know that. what do you mean with steroids? magic? highelves?
...though I wouldn't call playing by the rules whining, especially in a tournament setting. In friendly games, it's free for all, as long as you discuss it with your opponent before the game.
sorry, maybe whining was a bit harsh.
of course i state such facts before the game and i have more than one dragon, but when i go to a tournament, i usually dont take all of them. :wink:

as you both posted the same about dragons being intelligent, is stop quoting and just ask: you´re sure?
i mean i dont give someone a present, when the present is an intelligent, thinking and feeling being and i cant remember highelves having slaves. (Caledor Dragontamer gave Indraugnir to Aenarion... and that was not just some dragon, but one of the biggest and oldest of that time) if he would have been highly intelligent, Caledor would have rather asked him, if he would like to carry Aenarion to battle or Indraugnir would have chosen that for himself.
i know there´s much fantasy fluff about dragons that are intelligent, can talk, use telepathy or even cast spells, but i´ve never heard that of warhammer-dragons... although i have to admit that there´s been quite a while since i read my last WHFB book (except armybook).

regarding size, if dragons are like reptiles, many of them (take crocs) grow until they die, so, the bigger the croc, the older he is and the less agile he gets. i think the stats in WH (less I, more S and T) represent that fact quite well.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#18 Post by Prince of Spires »

Icarion wrote: as you both posted the same about dragons being intelligent, is stop quoting and just ask: you´re sure?
Jup, pretty sure. See p39 of the HE armybook, on dragons. Just a few quotes:
"They are wise and aloof, viewing those around them with a perspective that only the eldest creatures share"
"their minds are every bit as wise and cunning as the Elves"

Their intelligence can also be seen in the defenders of ulthuan book I think, where we get some insight into the minds of GW dragons.

I would personally also take their high LD as a sign of intelligence. But that may just be reading too much into the stats.

As for the giving, there is every chance that it was more asking Indraugnir to carry Aenarion. And that giving is more symbolic then factual.

As for steroids, no idea. But I wouldn't put it past Druchii to force-feed dragons or use magic to increase dragons in size. Also, it is of course possible that all their dragons were taken with them from before the sundering.

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Re: Colors of the dragons

#19 Post by Icarion »

hmm... i think i have to get these books!
but did you read in some of these books, that dragons talk?
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#20 Post by Prince of Spires »

maybe not so much talk as think and share their thoughts in a dreamlike world. It's a bit vague.

As for having to "get these books!". Well... I wouldn't realy go that far. Maybe ask Aicanor about her opinion of certain Black Library books if you want a colorfull description (she's good with colors). I'll stick to: they are not very good. Especially the first book of the two, which is not very well written and doesn't have a lot happening in it. The second still isn't very well written, but at least stuff happens in it, making it bearable (just about).

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Re: Colors of the dragons

#21 Post by Francis »

Just thought I should chip in here. The "Caledor" book in "The Sundering" series goes into great detail of how the relationship between dragons and elves work. Basically Caledor Dragontamer is the only elf ever who has been strong enough to bind dragons to his will. Nobody else have been able to control dragons, and even Caledor hardly ever used that ability. Instead he forged an alliance with the dragons against Chaos since both species were threatened.

As to who gets to rid which dragon, the dragons will mostly choose their own elf rather than the other way around (which is why Caledor II hardly ever rode a dragon whereas his younger brother Imladrik was given the title Dragon Master). This is also why you will see the strongest warriors and mages with the strongest dragons. If the dragons were to wake up en mass my guess is that they would turn to the descendants of their previous elven riders and this is also why each noble house in Caledor carries the colours associated with the dragons who have previously aided them. In a sense, the noble houses belong more to specific dragons than the dragons belong to the noble houses.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#22 Post by Icarion »

well, that sounds quite logical to me, as "owning" a beast that weights several tons, spits fire and can burn down a whole city with a single burp, is quite impossible to all but the strongest mages.

it is quite sad, that these books dont seem to be written very well, as literature about warhammer is quite rare except fanfics or armybook-stuff. i would also question the "officiallity" or warhammer-online, cus they may have the licence to do that stuff, but i am sure not all programmers were warhammer players.

i only know about the Malus Darkblade books, which my girlfriend owns. she started WH because of them, so i think they cant be so bad.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#23 Post by Francis »

Icarion wrote:well, that sounds quite logical to me, as "owning" a beast that weights several tons, spits fire and can burn down a whole city with a single burp, is quite impossible to all but the strongest mages.

it is quite sad, that these books dont seem to be written very well, as literature about warhammer is quite rare except fanfics or armybook-stuff. i would also question the "officiallity" or warhammer-online, cus they may have the licence to do that stuff, but i am sure not all programmers were warhammer players.

i only know about the Malus Darkblade books, which my girlfriend owns. she started WH because of them, so i think they cant be so bad.
The sundering books is written by Gav Thorpe and they are rather good. I actually recommend them, my favorite was Shadow King but all three were good.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#24 Post by Icarion »

ok, gav thorpe is a guy that is with GW a long time, while some of these newer books are written by william king... is that the "bad" guy? the only one i tried to avoid most of the time, is jervis johnson... imho he does really strange stuff!
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#25 Post by Francis »

Gav Thorpe used to be the "Loremaster" of GW, so he had the responsibility of making sure the fluff was good and consistent. Today he only writes for BL. Generally I like what he writes and he does elves decently. William King is an old writer who wrote most of the High Elf lore back in the early days. Some of what he writes is good and some not great. Generally though I like his books, although there are several posters here who thinks that he is rather bad.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#26 Post by Code13 »

I've said this before and I'll say it again

If you want to know about the real origins and ancient history fk the high elves read Michael Moorcock and his Elric of Melnibone series. Early GW plundered him wholesale for the old world

Elves both high and dark for Melniboneans, especially the relationship with magic
Wheel of chaos
Chaos wasted
Etc

Once upon a time all dragons did all sorts of breath weapons too
And all races could use them (even dwarves)

The only problem is whoever wrote the ridicous fluff about the dragons being bound and enslaved that basically ignored all logic and previous fluff
Throw that bit out and it's all good
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#27 Post by draxynnic »

I actually had a response in mind for the "but Dark Elf dragons are stronger than Sun Dragons" response...

And it's pretty much what's been said.

It's mentioned in Dark Elf fluff that dragon eggs that fall into their hands are corrupted with Dark Magic. The exact purpose of this corruption is not spelled out, but it's probably a safe bet that it's to augment the dragon's strength and ferocity at the cost (but for the Dark Elves this is half the point) of breaking the dragon's mind and robbing it of its spirit, essentially transforming it into just another animalistic, feral monster to be bent to the will of the Beastmasters.

So, basically, the Dark Elf dragons grow faster and more vicious due to magical manipulation (and possibly other forms of ill-treatment yet to be revealed) while the dragons of Ulthuan retain their sapience and independence and are largely viewed as allies rather than simple mounts.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#28 Post by Francis »

What has been said about the dark elf dragons is true, but I also think that Troke messed up a bit when he described the age of the dragons. I have always imagined that the Star Dragons are those who were born before and fought during the Daemon Wars. The Moon Dragons are those that were raised during the Sundering and right after, and the Sun Dragons are relatively young dragons, some may even be less than a millennium. Those dragons that lived before the coming of the old ones (like Indraugnir) are Emperor dragons today (don't know what the elves would call them, nova dragons?).

I also somewhat disagree on the Melniboneans being High Elves. There are many similarities but I think that claiming GW stole the idea wholesale is a bit to much. There are as much Tolkien elves, Byzantines, Athenians and Atlanteans in the Helfs as Melniboneans.
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Re: Colors of the dragons

#29 Post by Icarion »

Code13 wrote:And all races could use them (even dwarves)
yepp, i know that. still have some of the older armybooks like dwarves and undead, where 25% can be spent on monsters, which includes dragons...

thanks for all that information about the books. maybe i´ll check some stores within the next days and see what i can get. my favourite games-store here in munich (they have GW- and other fantasy-stuff, different RPGs, books, etc.) often has some really old stuff, beneath a ton of dust in some corner. :wink:
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