Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:17 am 
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okay, I've been wondering for some time now, since on occasion high elves still become dark elves... it is also possible for a dark elf to turn back to Asuryan? to be cleansed of the evil magic corrupting him/her and become one of the high elves again?

I always thought it was possible by breaking the cycle of enjoying pain and inflicting it. Keeping them separate from any refference as a dark elf and slowly adjust them to the way of the high elves...
you could compare it to the journey Tom Cruise' character in The Last Samurai went through, I suppose.
most wouldn't experience it, but a more intelligent dark elf might be able to open him/herself up for that sort of experience. A young one, I suppose, the elder elves are far too agressive and proud of their ways to change it like that, though one who is not completely enthralled with the debauchery that goes on within the courts of the Dark Elves might do it, in my opinion.

Sure, it would be an incredibly long and painfull process, and 99,9% would not do it, but that single one percent might, IMHO

but I wanna know what you guys think, would such a redemtion be possible?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:30 am 
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Someone wrote some nice fluff about druchii turning back and trying to escape, check the story section.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:46 am 
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I've always thought that, if I started a DE army/story, they would be like this. I think some druchii might just grow up thinking "I don't like all the blood etc." and would have the sort of tragic story where they are always reluctant in their orders and are eventually killed when they outright oppose.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:31 pm 
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I thought about it as well and in my opinion, not all Druchii are beyond redemption. There are two things why we do not hear much of them: most of them is dead very soon, they would never be trusted, unless something really unique happens. To turn evil is much more simple in a way, you just have to kill enough to show your determination and make everyone else avoid your blade. :lol:
I even started a story around this theme, but I am unsure if it is good enough to post. :oops:

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:57 pm 
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indeed, I think such a story is hard to pull off when you write it as a sort of war-story. However, if you focus on it as a personal story with the war happening around it, I think it has a good descent chance of succes.

currently my idea is that it starts when Druchii have a large encampment on Ulthuan, and the High-elves perform a counter-offensive, with Cothician ships from the northeast to block off their retreat. Chracian lions and Cothician cavalry, and a Lothern fleet from the northwest, combined with Dragon Princes and several other troops.
Amongst the Cothician Cavalry there rides the high elven main character.
A stoic prince, who goes out of his way to minimise casualties on both sides against the orders of his superiors. While there they capture a hastily constructed altar of khaine and he captures all the attendants.
The Cothician prince goes out of his way and takes a personal interest in one of the sorceresses, and he starts to talk to her. While they talk, idea's start to cross minds. She slowly softens to him as he speaks of his homeland in Cothique. They speak of their homes.
The Dark-elves then attack back, and the camp has to leave. The sorceress rejoins the druchii but soon finds herself detesting the acts she once enjoyed. She joins the front ranks of the new assault on Chrace. While there she once again faces the Cothician cavalry and amongst them she sees the banner of the prince, and soon she spots the prince himself, as he is engaged in combat against a particularly agressive dreadlord. The dreadlord relies on the sorceress to empower him, but she is unable to conjure a spell by her conflicted thoughts. The prince takes the innitiative and slays the dreadlord, shattering the morale of the druchii.
As the troops rout the sorceress stays and simply stands as the prince rides to her and takes her to his encampment. There she resides of her own free will. As she resides in the high-elf encampment she continues to struggle with the negative light she's engulfed in between the high elves and the struggle of her betrayal.
The prince lends a comforting hand, and when the high elven camp comes under attack, the high elves put on a counter-offensive, and this time the sorceress betrays her birth completely, casting her spells and sorceries in favour of the high elves, and once the dark elves have finally been pushed back completely, she accompanies the prince to Cothique, where she finally gets to see the sunrise of which the prince told her before, that is the most magnificent thing on Ulthuan.

that's all I have at this moment, as a backstory for my army, or at least, my arch-mage and cavalry-prince. It sounds like a heavy warstory but I intend to stick closer to the characters and have it in a more homeric story telling-method. Even in these enormous scales I intend to focus solely on the characters, and how they stand into the entire situation. The doubt, and fear they go through, the hope they get from each other, motives and journeys, rather than battles won or lost.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:09 am 
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You might also consider how distrustful the High Elves will be of a Dark Elf claiming such things. Given that this is coming from an enemy that has infiltrated Ulthuan multiple times, that has killed and worse... There is every chance that the potential Druchii defector will meet with a very cold reception. This is true even before you add in the high chance that they are Shadow Warriors and then the reception is in the form of a volley of arrows - if the Dark Elf is lucky.

When that is the reality, before the years of cultural training/brainwashing to believe the Asur are evil, I doubt many Druchii would seek redemption in Ulthuan. There's just too much hatred, loss and cultural difference on both sides now, even for the younger elves. How many Druchii do you suppose have lost parents to the hated Asur? So, is it possible? Probably. Does it ever happen? There are an awfully large number of reasons why this is likely to be a case of redemption equals death.

Also, I can see what you are getting at here, but does returning to Asuryan have to equal becoming a High Elf again in the sense of living on Ulthuan?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:07 pm 
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do remember that she doesn't just walk up to the high-elven encampment and say "I wanna join you guys", she's first captured and held against her will. She is freed by her own kind and she rejoins them, but feels that she doesn't fit in completely after having seen the comradery of the high-elves, and this affects her in the battle to the point where she, because of her doubt lets down her lord who is then slain by the prince. With her lord dead, the dark-elves would doubtlessly brand her a traitor and execute her after ages of torture, while as a prisoner of the high-elves she stands a meagre chance of surviving this fiasco. that is the innitial moment of her defection, and having the experience that the prince seeks to minimize casualties, there a reasonable chance of survival. So, from that point of view, it's quite likely that a dark-elf would rather seek refuge in a high-elven prison rather than a dark-elven camp.

well, from a biological standpoint there is only 4 or 5 generations difference in the genetic line between the high and dark elves, so phisiologically they are pretty much the same except for a tendacy of a paler skin on the dark-elf side due to the lack of UV rays because of the dark cities.
I was already expecting that sort of cold reception, and even the shadow-warriors would have to back away, or try by devious ways to kill her, if they fall under the protection of a prince, even from a different nation as prisoners of war.
now let's refer back to Homerus' Iliad.
The Romance between Achilles and Briseis was also a hard one because he actually killed her brother out of vengence and pride, or rather, murdered him in combat. and with the seige of Troy taking over 4 years according to the version I have, Briseis would have had a lot of time to adjust to the greek company. She would never trust other greeks, but she did trust Achilles before she was released back to troy. Achilles saw the potential of good leadership in Troy, and put down his weapons except for one fight afterwards and he died in the fight trying to protect Briseis from the greeks, when he was shot in the heel by Paris.

The dark-elf will see the comradery and trust between the high-elves as they fight off the dark-elven forces attacking the camp when they free her. Further more it's quite obvious that I'm not so naive to just have her go "ohh, sooo the high elves are the good guys.... guess I'll join them then" ~w~.
And to add to it, it's not like when she finally sees Cothique she's an instant high-elf, she will still cope with adjusting to it and re-learning all her magic on her own after she's been cleansed by an archmage of the dhar, since no high-elf mage would ever teach a (former) dark-elf their arts of saphery, so to speak. As well as the hatred and distrust from the civilians and citizens of Cothique.
The reception will be colder than the seas of nagaroth, so to speak, but given time(and lots of it, since the elves develop relationships very slowly) they might see the efford she's putting in and recognise her as a true defector of the dark-elves. There will always be a measure of distrust, undoubtedly, and I might just make that a sort of army-rule for my army.

("If the defector is the general of the army, the army cannot benefit from her leadership and must refer to the highest-leadership from a high-elf noble or prince on the field for the inspiring presence." or something..~)

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
Someone wrote some nice fluff about druchii turning back and trying to escape, check the story section.

can you please link me the story? .. o.o I'm having trouble identifying it.. T^T

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Raithial wrote:
Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
Someone wrote some nice fluff about druchii turning back and trying to escape, check the story section.

can you please link me the story? .. o.o I'm having trouble identifying it.. T^T


It starts here.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:09 pm 
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I generally agree with Lord Anubis, there are not many ways for the DE defector to be accepted By High Elves. I tried to come up with some, but I am not telling now. But I think on personal basis it is possible in some circumstances (saving one's live is undoubtedly one).
After some deliberation I decided to post preface to my story in Story Telling section. Let me know what you think. :wink:

PS: I thought Achilles didn't fight because he was sulking when Agamemnon took the Briseis away from him and changed his mind only because Hector killed his best friend in battle?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:33 pm 
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I was just reading your post ~w~

But while Achilles faught in the innitial landing, and he did sulk because Briseis was taken away, yes.
However, Achilles still had no intention of fighting for Agememnon, even after Hector had killed Patrocles(his cousin). He merely set out to destroy hector at that point, and that was no battle, it was a murder.
Afterwards, the trojan king came to his tent to recover the corpse of his son and found briseis. Achilles let her go with the king. When the greeks constructed the horse however, he snuck in with it, to protect briseis, not to fight the trojans. At least, that's how I read it.
Achilles is a deeply selfish guy, and he cared not for Agememnon one bit, so he refused to fight in that war even when Ajax was killed by Hector and the king of sparta was killed by the very same guy. The only reason he came into that war was because Odyseus had talked him into it with dreams of everlasting glory. He didn't follow orders and he flat out threatened Agememnon and his court when Briseis was in danger of being raped by the troops.

though those things have little to do with my own redemtion story :3
I already made the first post :3
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=42462

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Haha ~ so many redemption stories in storytelling now!

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:42 pm 
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well, my story was sort of based off the dark-elf mage-model I use as my mage in any battle I use next to my cavalry prince ^^;;
and those redemption stories are always a hopefull glimmer in an otherwise very grim lore of a slow death of the elves.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Raithial wrote:
...though those things have little to do with my own redemtion story :3

Other than there is an assortment of lords and lordlings all following their own agenda. :mrgreen: It is very long time since I read it, it seems I might want to refresh my memory.

Elithmar of Lothern wrote:
Haha ~ so many redemption stories in storytelling now!
Well... they may not be a redemption after all. :twisted:

I am not sure why I started the story other than that I like this kind of characters. And there was a short BL story somewhere that gave me the idea. Not thet there was redemption either.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:54 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
Raithial wrote:
...though those things have little to do with my own redemtion story :3

Other than there is an assortment of lords and lordlings all following their own agenda. :mrgreen: It is very long time since I read it, it seems I might want to refresh my memory.


well, the dreadlord of my story isn't really going at it for his own renown. Sure he wants to get into syriscia's panties, but then, who doesn't want to get that opportunity amongst the dark-elves?
Orders from Malekith are pretty well followed ~w~

Aicanor wrote:
Elithmar of Lothern wrote:
Haha ~ so many redemption stories in storytelling now!
Well... they may not be a redemption after all. :twisted:

I am not sure why I started the story other than that I like this kind of characters. And there was a short BL story somewhere that gave me the idea. Not thet there was redemption either.

o.o ... now I'm curios

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:01 am 
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In my general knowledge of Druchii culture, any softness or weakness (often regarded as Asur-like qualities such as genuine love, kindness, trust, lack of sadistic hatred, that sort of thing) are met with swift punishment of slow death.

I've thought about how Druchii could repent (in a word).
- Nagarythii trained Sleepers
- certain enlightened small families hiding their offspring away from the general Druchii populace and teaching them the whole truth of the Sundering and dreams of a better life
- Asur spy picking off/out candidates for Asur indoctrination
- captured Druchii seeing the Light

My personal favourite is:
- a Nagarythii spy falling for a beautiful (and very strangly, kind..!) Druchii maiden, conflicted and smitten, he teaches her the ways of the Asur (well..., the Nagarythii) and together they escape Nagaroth and not with a warm welcome, return to Ulthuan.


Edit:
I'm pretty sure that the Druchii know they're evil aswell, I doubt very much that they teach their people that "They are the GOOD GUYS!!".

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:14 am 
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well, the captured druchii seeing the light is sort of the core for my own redemtion story.
As for the "Certain enlightened small families hiding their offspring away from the general druchii populace and teaching them the whole truth of the sundering and dreams of a better life" seems quite far-fetched. In my opinion, I think all a druchii needs to become elligible for redemption is curiosity. The moment they become curious they open themselves up to the ideas of the Asur, and can then determine for themselves what they wish to strive for.

Asur spies and sleepers seem a bit too deceitful, in my opinion. I mean, if they really wanted to find out about something that goes on in Nagaroth, they'd probably just use some form of scrying-object.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:46 am 
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The way that dhar corrupts druchii, makes it hard to believe a sorceress turning good. Falling for a pretty asur prince yes, but she would want to dominate and break them rather than love them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:25 am 
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- certain enlightened small families hiding their offspring away from the general Druchii populace and teaching them the whole truth of the Sundering and dreams of a better life
This was a very brief abbreviation of what would be the actual case.
- the family in theory is one of the few that sees both sides of the coin, it would have started out as a single Druchii's curiosity as you pointed out all it would take.
Then after centuries of unrest and annual sacrifices and public killings he finds others that are as terrified of the nation as he is, together they piece together the hidden tales and myths of old, when they were part of ulthuan. They would form an almost resistánce with several if not most being found with some material deemed illegal, and subsequently tortured for information, but one of whom somewhere along the line never said a word, perhaps to spare a loved one and surely punished further for it.
That unnamed loved one, perhaps the last of the original resistance finds more like them, passes on their knowledge and views, after several more centuries their kind-hearted kind have learned to hind their existence completely.. (Living off the grid, so to speak).
Therefore, millennia down the line from the original curiosity of a single Druchii, there are select families sneaking and silently immigrating their youths into Ulthuan.
All the while the general populace of Asur are none the wiser their neighbours, friends or LOVERS were once,... Druchii....

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:18 am 
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure that the Druchii know they're evil aswell, I doubt very much that they teach their people that "They are the GOOD GUYS!!".


Of course they think they are the good guys. They certainly believe they were in the right on the whole sundering deal.

Now for the far part. To what degree is the average dark elf actually evil? Sure the leaders are, but what about your average rank and file soldier? Are they truly evil? Or are they more like the Germans of WW2? It's safe to say the world is a better place because they were defeated. And it would be fair to say that as a nation they were evil. But take a typical German soldier, was he evil? I don't think so- at least not in most cases.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure that the Druchii know they're evil aswell, I doubt very much that they teach their people that "They are the GOOD GUYS!!".

Of course they think they are the good guys. They certainly believe they were in the right on the whole sundering deal.

Let's say they feel entitled to act as they do. They also have a very rigid code of honour, depending on their status. Not what we would call this perhaps, but without it their society would collapse onto itself long time ago.

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
They certainly believe they were in the right on the whole sundering deal.

They are warrior society and would certainly look down at Asur for doing "slave work". And the shame of having merchant for a king!

@ Asurion, are you planning to add your own "redemption" story? It almost sounds like you have one in mind...

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
@ Asurion, are you planning to add your own "redemption" story? It almost sounds like you have one in mind...

That's the problem, I've got a dozen or so stories floating around in my head but just find it exhausting to write a 5000+ word story.
Putting it in chapters could work, but I always seem to change minor details here and there to better accommodate newer works.

Inspiration is a biggy, if people were interested in reading my dribble I suppose I could drag myself to it, but I can't expect people to show interest in it.
But as it stands I have:
- The Prelude to the Birth of Asurion.
- The Young life of the Young Sea Prince.
- The Birth of Malhandël Gallen's Chosen.
- The Tale of Foques.
- The Love in the Distant Land.
- The Return to Cothique.
- The Dark Times.
- The Magical Life of Auralii.
- The Dreams of Dreams.
- The Darker Times.
- The Darkest Times.
- The Goddess Speaks.
- The New Court.
- The New Friends.
- The Old Friends.
- The Timing.
That's all for Asurion, then I have a few side stories, including a redemption (so to speak) story.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Asurion Whitestar wrote:
Aicanor wrote:
@ Asurion, are you planning to add your own "redemption" story? It almost sounds like you have one in mind...

That's the problem, I've got a dozen or so stories floating around in my head but just find it exhausting to write a 5000+ word story.
Putting it in chapters could work, but I always seem to change minor details here and there to better accommodate newer works.
I see, and the stories just do not fit in under 5000 words, do they? :mrgreen: That's why I never finished anything. This time perhaps, if people want to read it. But I fear there is too much retrospection for it to be readable. We'll see. :lol:

Asurion Whitestar wrote:
- The Prelude to the Birth of Asurion.
- The Young life of the Young Sea Prince.
- The Birth of Malhandël Gallen's Chosen.
- The Tale of Foques.
- The Love in the Distant Land.
- The Return to Cothique.
- The Dark Times.
- The Magical Life of Auralii.
- The Dreams of Dreams.
- The Darker Times.
- The Darkest Times.
- The Goddess Speaks.
- The New Court.
- The New Friends.
- The Old Friends.
- The Timing.
That's all for Asurion, then I have a few side stories, including a redemption (so to speak) story.


That is quite a nice menu you have here, Dreams of Dreams sound intriquing. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:03 pm 
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I write in chapters. I must have written quite a lot now. It doesn't flow together very well, but I could work on that.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:19 am 
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I was thinking about this question at work today, and came up with this:
Sorceress with druchii army invades, army gets pushed back, leaving the sorceress dying in a ditch somewhere.
Isha feels sorry for her and her tears heal her, not just her physical wounds but also the dhar corruption.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Oo, divine intervention. I like it. ^_^

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:53 pm 
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in all honesty, I think devine intervention usually takes away from the story.
I'll admit that in some cases, such as with the Odyssea that it increases, but often it feels to me like a cop-out. "I want her to become good, so I'll just use a devine being to do it." Which is why I hardly ever mention gods in my tales, and almost never have them interact in the story.
To me, personally, seeing a dark elf go through hell and wondering about herself, struggling with the Dhar, coming to terms with not being trusted by anyone without the help of a god makes it more.. more of an efford and more interesting as a character-arc.
And if I'd have anyone forgive Syriscia in my story, It'd be the prince rethon, and with him also Lileath.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Rainbows
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Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
I was thinking about this question at work today, and came up with this:
Sorceress with druchii army invades, army gets pushed back, leaving the sorceress dying in a ditch somewhere.
Isha feels sorry for her and her tears heal her, not just her physical wounds but also the dhar corruption.

We have some evidence in BL books that it is possible. It doesn't mean it'll be easy or even appreciated by said sorceress, at least at first. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:24 am 
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Well played Sir
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Sure divine intervention has been used before, but I think you're underestimating the corruptive power Dhar has, as well as the effect of living in the Druchii society.
It's hard to imagine one just waking up one morning and thinking "I might shake that elf's hand rather than cutting his throat..."

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:53 am 
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no, I don't think I underestimate it one bit as you'll read later on in the story, when she's starting to hunger for the Dhar.
But that's the whole point. If it was devine intervention you're either need to be REALLY special, to the equality to Eltharion and some of the lesser canon characters. It's either that, or redemption would be so common-place that anyone who regretted their actions in the Dark Elves could become a high elf....
The whole point of not involving the Gods in a story, or only to a sort of waygiving purpose is to show the entire journey without resorting to a sort of Mcguiver-tactic of "all's better now, you're now a high-elf" devine intervention.
I've actually given this story a great deal of thought, and using a devine intervention, to me at least, takes away a lot of the power of such a redemption story.
In my honest opinion, a redemption story should be about personal perseverance and the harsh journey for salvation, facing the distrust of your allies and enemies, and being caught in the middle between two camps and having everything to lose while your mind is racing and your body hungers and yearns to renew the dark magic. That realisation, the moment you're down in the mud, trembling, bleeding abandoned by everyone, at the lowest possible point, thát is the only moment where I'd possibly see a devine intervention as a good point in the story.

The other problem I have with devine intervention is the baggage it carries.
"Why couldn't she just forgive?" "why did she wait that long?" "are the gods really just playing a game with the elves as the centrefold?"
but I'll leave that for another discussion.

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