War of the beard: what do the elves know.

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dragonkingofthestars
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War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#1 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

A question: how much do the High elves and the Dwarfs know about the start of the war of the beard?

Obviously even if they did know too much blood was shed during the war and after the war to even think about normilzeing relations, duh there.

but how much do they know about the Dark elves involvment in said war?
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#2 Post by Aicanor »

Elves know that DE were involved. Dwarves do now know it but for them it makes not much difference. They don't approve of kinslaying. They were able to stand side by side in battle since, but don't trust each other.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#3 Post by Giladis »

Now they both know DE were behind the whole thing, back then Dwarfs were seen as outrigth agressors by the Elves. And the opposite for the Dwarfs.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#4 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Giladis wrote:Now they both know DE were behind the whole thing, back then Dwarfs were seen as outrigth agressors by the Elves. And the opposite for the Dwarfs.
ah yes i thought they might figured it out but i really did not know if they had and just wanted to double check.

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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#5 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

Giladis wrote:Now they both know DE were behind the whole thing, back then Dwarfs were seen as outrigth agressors by the Elves. And the opposite for the Dwarfs.
Really..? Source?

I was under the impression that the dwarves still thought the whole war was the High Elves fault.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#6 Post by Giladis »

You are correct but so am I. I'll have to dig out the exact quote but the current Dwarf stance is.

We know those other elves did it but hold all elves responsible for the actions of the few, esepecialy the Phoenix King, since he is the king. Which is mighty hypocritical considering the existance of the Chaos Dwarfs.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#7 Post by Chaladris »

Well actually, i think you're both right. I don't know much about the dwarfs, but i do know that the start of the war was the high elves their fault. When Dark Elves troops disguised themselves as HE, they attacked dwarf caravans. The current dwarven king, Gotrek Starbreaker asked the current Phoenix king Caledor II (the warrior, or as he is called by the dwarfs, the fool) for compansation of the stolen goods. Caledor refused, and Gotrek asked again. Caledor went mad, shaved of the beard of the dwarven ambassador in Ulthuan, and sent him back home. If we, at the time had a different phoenix king, one who could be reasoned with, and not like Caledor II, the war could have been avoided.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#8 Post by Aicanor »

In Giantslayer there is a part where Teclis and Gotrek have discussion on Elves and slavery. He and Felix are not at all sure Dark Elves are separate nation. Then Teclis mentions Chaos Dwarfs and Gotrek is not happy. No, not happy at all, my precious.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#9 Post by Giladis »

As for the begining of the WOTB I really can't say that I can blame Caledor for the way he acted, he may have been a tool but the fighting had gone for 7 years by the time Starbreaker send his ambasador. From a HE point of view the Dwarfs were an unprovoked agressors that for no apparent reason started calling them thieves, attacking their colonies and killing their people and still have the nerve to send an ambasador, demanding recompense were lost goods that Asur did not take.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#10 Post by Asurion Whitestar »

This is turning into an almost proper debate.. I like it..

While on topic, I don't believe the High Elves were at fault at all, unless you can blame their innate nature. Just as the Dwarves are stubborn, the Asur are proud.

The Druchii (being Malekith) knew this when they (he) planned the whole war years ahead as a destructional distraction to weaken the High Elves at home, for his (and his mother's) master plan.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#11 Post by Chaladris »

All true, but still i think that ifwe had a Phoenix King that was a bit less proud an a bit more wise than Caledor II, we could have at least avoided the loss of the Phoenix Crown, and the slaughter of too many lives. If the war wasn´t there, both the Asur and the Dwarfs would have had more strength in the present.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#12 Post by Aicanor »

We shouldn't forget that Malekith was architect of friendship with Dwarfs. Even if Dwarfs were told, it would be difficult to believe or percieved as treason on part of the Elves. The plan was well devised, Malekith knew both sides well. Elves and know more now, but the mistrust is there.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#13 Post by Laicamir »

I think the war would have been avoided is a king such as Caraydel (Peacemaker) or Bel-Shannar (Personally visited the dwarfs) had been king. However I do not think Caledor II was to blame, he was stupid and a poor king but that was the way I would expect him to act in those circumstances. In the end the Druchii are to blame but if the dwarves refused to except there were two kinds of elves and hold the phoenix king responsible for both then they are not blameless.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#14 Post by Jimmy »

Isn't there some strange story in the current VC book about deceased HE being raised and fighting Dwarfs or something along those lines?
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#15 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I thought Elves couldn't be raised from the dead.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#16 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:I thought Elves couldn't be raised from the dead.
They can't? news to me.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#17 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:I thought Elves couldn't be raised from the dead.
They can't? news to me.
I seem to remember that from some old bit of fluff somewhere. However it was gone for sure near the end of 5th. The standard bearer for the DoW unit Cursed Company is a HE.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#18 Post by Aicanor »

Dead Elves usually stay dead. The story in VC book is about HE princess (Finubar's daughter) sent to strike an anti-Chaos alliance with Dwarves and put War if the beard finally behind. It was quite successful, but VC didn't like it so they attacked and killed the delegation and the Dwarves and kidnapped the princess. Kemmler rose Dwarves from dead in the battle, not Elves.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#19 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

The model for the Standard Bearer does appear to be a skeleton in Elf armour.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#20 Post by Mireadur »

Ahh stop accepting the official version!!

IT is more than obvious that King Gotrek and Malekith being good friends as they were, planned the whole thing. Malekith for sure promised the greedy dwarves all the riches in vaul's anvil which and then proceeded with the farce.

Dwarves are cynical and envious little beings! aarrggh :mrgreen:
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#21 Post by Aicanor »

Of course! They are trying to dig a tunnel to Ulthuan ever since. They will get there one day!
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#22 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Nobody tell them that Ulthuan floats on top of the Seas, it'll be hilarious when they dig their way to Naggaroth!
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#23 Post by Prince Asarion »

A minor bit of necromancy... however, I've been reading through War of Vengeance. If we can assume that novels released in 2012 are canon (as opposed to say Drachenfels) then we have our answer.

(A minor note, the writing of the novel isn't bad, however I can't stand reading about Dwarves in general, except when they're busy dying.)

Gotrek Starbreaker was informed, 8 years prior to the actual starting of the war, that the killings of Dwarves were being done by the Druchii, including the attack that killed one of their runelords. As well as the use of Dhar, which it mentions is an offense punishable by death, however it doesn't say whether or not the Dwarves were informed of that little tidbit (or if I missed that).

Later on, it actually gives a timeline for when the Dwarven delegation arrived in Ulthuan, which just happened to be the day after word had reached Caledor II that the Dwarves had slaughtered an entire city full of elves.

Putting these little things in context, Caledor II is depicted as a douche and even if he hadn't shaved the delegation, they would have still gone to war. Further, it depicts dwarves as the stupid, ignorant warmongers that we all knew they were.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#24 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

I approve of this threadromancy ^_^
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#25 Post by Prince Asarion »

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:I approve of this threadromancy ^_^
Glad to hear it.

Also, the book often spends most of the time talking about how the Dwarves just really didn't like the Elves (BEFORE the Druchii started their mischief), they'd been at peace for a long time since Gotrek had nearly killed all the goblins (that obviously worked out well for the long term) and were itching for a fight. They also had the view that elves were weak and spindly and would be a walkover like the greenskins.

So yes, according to the most recent lore we have. The Druchii gave the excuse for the Dwarves, but at the end of the day it was 100% the dwarves fault.
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[size=85][i][color=#0000FF]Army - L ~ D ~ V ~ SV - Year[/color][/i][/size]
[size=85][i][color=#BF4000]HE --- 0 ~ 0 ~ 0 ~ 8 - 2012[/color][/i][/size]
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#26 Post by dragonkingofthestars »

That just, sounds off.

Is there any reason given as to WHY the dwarfs felt like fighting the elves? I (and i think most people) thought that Dwarfs did not like elves because of the war of the beard, yet here we have evidence they were itching for a fight to START the war when previously they had been friends and allys.

I thought dwarfs hated that sort of thing, which is why the war of the beard was such a deal breaker. Any chance Malekith played both sides and slaughtered that elf city and just made sure that there were no one left to say 'it was elves that killed us'?
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#27 Post by Prince Asarion »

Well, in the novel the Dwarves seemed to have this belief that the entire old world was theirs, that the elves were taking their land and the like. Even though their cities and outposts were allowed and had been well established for hundreds if not thousands of years (depending upon which one we're talking about)

It must be noted that the leaders of the factions wanted peace, Caledor II wasn't involved and didn't care until after the war had already started. His brother Imladrik did all he could to offset it, Gotrek also didn't want a war. It was lower ranked Dwarves who were spoiling for a fight. Also, there were Elven factions who didn't like Dwarves but Dwarves weren't able to really know about that, since they almost all couldn't speak elven.
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[size=85][i][color=#0000FF]Army - L ~ D ~ V ~ SV - Year[/color][/i][/size]
[size=85][i][color=#BF4000]HE --- 0 ~ 0 ~ 0 ~ 8 - 2012[/color][/i][/size]
[size=85][i][color=#BF4000]HE --- 0 ~ 0 ~ 1 ~ 0 - 2013[/color][/i][/size]
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#28 Post by Code13 »

Sounds like an enormous and utterly garbage ret-con to me, designed to do nothing but appeal to elf players

Elves and Dwarves dislike each other because the are fundamentally opposite and don't understand each other, the dark elves took advantage of this to separate two otherwise unstoppable allies

Anything that deviates from this is, frankly, garbage writing and garbage continuity (something BL books are renowned for
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#29 Post by draxynnic »

On elves and necromancy...

The impression I always had from the fluff was that the elves didn't have any specific immunity to necromancy, but also didn't have much interest in it instead. Humans are tempted by necromancy as a means of unnaturally extending their li...existences, while elves having much longer natural lifespans lack the temptation to extend their lives that way - even those who do regard their natural span as insufficient have time to find more elegant means of extending it.
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Re: War of the beard: what do the elves know.

#30 Post by Elessehta of Yvresse »

Once an Elf dies their 'soul' if you will, is immediately taken by Asuryan, he's a jealous god and let's no one have his children.
This is why we're immune to the vampire disease.
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