Glittering tower, information request.

[dragonkingofthestars]

There are 2 problems with this.

The scale you used does not translate to in game distances.

ya, sorry about that i got on a roll and ended up a bit to clever for my own good.

As for increasing the power needed to increase the range, you are correct that it takes increasingly more to increase the range. Example from the BRB: lore of fire fireball. From 24'' to 48'' the casting value goes from 5 to 18. So double distance means about 3 times the casting value.

as has been proven the game does not scale perfect if it was real. that said that soudns good to me. double range, triple the vaule, double again (four times the starting range) 12 times harder, or perhapes it get even harder, but a linar graph works is easer to work with unless we have some other examples from a book.

But as I said, magic capabilities and knowledge will increase just as cannon and ship technology has.

does it? i know a few books are dated back to the damon wars do we see them getting better over time? if anything i think they have gtten weaker if you consider the great magics Caeldor could pull off and compared to now. Sure he was a greatest mage of his time but if you compared him to the greatest mage currently liveing, (teclis) and the power diffrnce is unimagable and in that context they have gotten weaker

Rod[/quote]

[Shannar, Sealord]

For example, in the Opium War in China, during the 19th century, British battleships bombarded the coastal areas and fortifications from afar, safe from the reach of the Chinese cannon. Similarly, the shortest war in recorded history, the Anglo-Zanzibar War of 1896, was brought to a swift conclusion by shelling from British battleships.

You won't find much actual destruction of well built fortifications in either of those cases. It was more of a feeling of helplessness and inability to strike back that made the diffrence.

Even at the start of the US Civil war little actual damage was done to Ft. Sumpter (similar in a way in that it was an island fort. However it could also be hit from land.)and casualties were very light inside the fort (if memory serves only a couple wounded, maybe one dead) but they have up due to the fact that they couldn't effectivly hit back and supplies were low to non-existant with no realistic hope of resupply. Simply battering it with cannon balls would be how it would go in a movie, but few cases in history have worked this way. I will say that this tower was built before the days of cannons and so wouldn't have been designed specifically to stand against them, so it might lack the backing behind the walls it would need. But then I'm sure it was built with the help of magic to strengthen the walls. However I don't see why human magic coudln't have reached the point where they could at least dispell most a lot of what the elves want to do (I do think they would be likely to close the "magic gap" over time.) From there I don't see why some of your iron clads couldn't get close in, cause a minor breach and then storm the place with marines. They'd take a heck of a lot of casualites, but hey compared to elves they can easily afford to. Or they could simply cut it off, wait for it to surrender and then mistreat the captives. Not as dramatic, but it's the way things usually go.

[Aicanor]

In the day of Caledor the magic level was much higher. To rid the world of Daemons, Caledor created the Vortex that drains magic from the world. No living mage after him can reach his level of power. If the Vortex was destroyed, or even stopped for a while, Elven mages power would increase considerably. Human ones would probably go insane.
The downside is that the Deamons would be able to materialize in flesh again.
But this doesn't mean Elves can't refine and develop their art in smaller ways.

Example from Sons of Ellyrion (but beware, there are spoilers):

the Vortex was almost destroye by Morathi and temporary increase in power was enough for HE to capitalize on.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Why bother casting complicated spells when you could just teleport units of Sword Masters into the ships, or large chunks of stone to just drag them under the seas.
Imagine just getting the apprentices to use simple spells like Wind Blast to change the trajectory of the cannon balls, half the shots wouldn't even make it to the walls to be dissipated against the magical wards =P

[dragonkingofthestars]

Or they could simply cut it off, wait for it to surrender and then mistreat the captives. Not as dramatic, but it's the way things usually go.

not a option here: they want the tower down so they more effectivly mine the strait and to keep as much of the elven fleet bottled up in Lothern as they can.

though they could just park a floating battery a fair bit out to blockade the empire is running on a bit of a inflated ego at the moment given they just crushed a naval attack against them. they want to put a battery and a escort of destroyers, gunboats and a cruiser within shelling range of the emerld gate to make sure nothing can get out. form a offensive view, it a heck of a chock point forceing a lot of ships though a narrow point.

In the day of Caledor the magic level was much higher. To rid the world of Daemons, Caledor created the Vortex that drains magic from the world. No living mage after him can reach his level of power. If the Vortex was destroyed, or even stopped for a while, Elven mages power would increase considerably. Human ones would probably go insane.

Ah that explains the power diffrence (nods sagely) but does't that also put a cap on just how much magic any one elf can use? if Caledor was the strongest under the most magicly powerful situation and after him all mages are ultmatly limited in a how much power they can use, what is the limit then? some ten thousand years you would think they would have already hit the ceiling of what magic can do.

so excluding the books that date to the days of the deamon invasoin: (since all magic was more powerful) do we see them getting stronger over time magicly from one book to another?

[Prince of Spires]

Ah that explains the power diffrence (nods sagely) but does't that also put a cap on just how much magic any one elf can use?

12 PD per turn?

Teclis is said to be the most powerfull (HE) mage since caledor. So it generally varies a bit from person to person. I'm not sure what the limit would be. However, I do know that competition helps drive knowledge forward. So if the empire would be on the rise, I can imagine HE investing in research to keep up. Also I'm sure advances remain possible in area's like working together or eficient use.

In the end, there are no definitive answers. You as a writer should supply them, depending on the effect you want to achieve. Do you want the HE to fight a losing battle? Then the magic is not adequate enough to keep up with the advances of the empire. Is the empire a bit overconfident and do you want them to find out their technology still doesn't match the raw power of magic? Then the magic can achieve more.

Just keep in mind that once your characters managed to do something they will always be able to do it (exceptional circumstances excepted of course). So if the HE easily sink an empire fleet at the start of the war, you need a very good reason why they aren't able to in the middle or at the end.

Rod

[Aicanor]

As Rod hints, mages' power is not the most important limit, the limit is how much magic can be drawn at given place at given time. Old artifacts and magic nodes can to an extent mitigate this, but they are rare, even on Ulthuan.
The power level is more or less set, but there is a lot of opportunity to find new uses for magic.
From my point of view HE do not have sufficient power to squarely defeat the invading force. Empire has magic enough to overcome some magic defences, probably not all. Active defence of the Elves would be strong.
Elves has one advantage and that is that they fight in home territory, Empire generals will know precious little about Ulthuan. Also, to repel the attack they need to destroy as many Empire ships they can. Even Empire should not be able to rebuild their fleet quickly enough.

What is more, if things go very very wrong, Elves have means to destroy the attackers on the spot - and the world with them, most likely. But we won't, we won't, we won't... 'Cause we are most noble and selfless and know what is at stake. :LOL:

[dragonkingofthestars]

well if the HE could just whip up a hurcane and destroy the fleet in the isles would not be much of a story. I am also trying to make this story conform to existing canon as much as possible,,(The part about the black knight gives me shivers given how much new stuff i have to make up for that). I do share Aicanor view that the elves magic is just a combat multiplier. it makes battles easer but can't win it by themselves.

[Giladis]

What I find interesting is how Asur have no prewarning of what is going on in the Empire with all their spies runing around. I doubt HE would allow men to build a fleet of that magnitude so that it could challenge their naval supremacy. HE are not your every day fantasy noble goody to shoes elves. They are ruthless, we are talking about people that slaughter civilians for no reason other than because they lived on a spot where one of their monoliths was. They ignored the Old World for 3500 years and were greatly surprised top find men living in walled cities. WHFRP tells us that they are now keeping a close eye on what is going on in the Empire. Men are not allies, they are living shields.

Just open the rulebook and read Imrik's quote. HE are not going to allow Empire to build such a fleet in the first place and that is I think your first problem. The second is magic that is being discussed already. It is deus ex machina of WHFB story telling. In our setting we have creatures raising mountain ranges with magic (post great wortex), moving continents, animating the dead in an area that is the size of North America, bannishing entire armies to the realms of chaos and not to mention Orc gods materializing to stomp on things.

Teclis is rumoured to be on par with Nagash, knowing what Nagash did just imagine what Teclis could do to the empire fleet if he put his mind to it. The point of machinery in WHFB is that they are used by races not as gifted in magic to bridge the gap but they could never match magic.


Also you have to think about the Bretonnians who are the great naval power of the Old World before even starting to contemplate bringing the war to Ulthuan.

[dragonkingofthestars]

What I find interesting is how Asur have no prewarning of what is going on in the Empire with all their spies runing around. I doubt HE would allow men to build a fleet of that magnitude so that it could challenge their naval supremacy. HE are not your every day fantasy noble goody to shoes elves. They are ruthless, we are talking about people that slaughter civilians for no reason other than because they lived on a spot where one of their monoliths was. They ignored the Old World for 3500 years and were greatly surprised top find men living in walled cities. WHFRP tells us that they are now keeping a close eye on what is going on in the Empire. Men are not allies, they are living shields.

(face palm) great, just,, great. the way i can justfy a navle war is by say the empires navy's smaller but much more powerful then expect, (which given the power of explosive shot and rifled cannons in are world makes a fair amount of sense.)

The second is magic that is being discussed already. It is deus ex machina of WHFB story telling. In our setting we have creatures raising mountain ranges with magic (post great wortex), moving continents, animating the dead in an area that is the size of North America, bannishing entire armies to the realms of chaos and not to mention Orc gods materializing to stomp on things.

Teclis is rumoured to be on par with Nagash, knowing what Nagash did just imagine what Teclis could do to the empire fleet if he put his mind to it. The point of machinery in WHFB is that they are used by races not as gifted in magic to bridge the gap but they could never match magic.

we have been back and forth on this on this thread, there seems to be two views to the subject: one is the view I and Aicanor have which is magic, though powerful is not all power you need a strong army or you are not going to get anywere.

the other view is yours: magic can do anything and nothing can stand against, (one could argue a good sniper rifle is the excpetion but i digress) but by that standard why did the high elves, the ultmate in magic have problems in the war of the beard? the dwarfs have NO magic at all, and i'm not 100% sure they had cannons at that point.

I propose a medium: the strongest mages are to your view, (Ex dus machina) , but most mages are like Aicanor and my view that there only so much they can do.

Also you have to think about the Bretonnians who are the great naval power of the Old World before even starting to contemplate bringing the war to Ulthuan.

that's the one thing i have no problem with. Empire Ironclads are cannon proof, infact they made ironcalds to counter the brets, it just so happened that by makeing there ships cannon proof they made them bolt thower proof as well.

i may have mentioned this in passing but the empires first target was breton and they took that place in 2 years, (medevil knights VS rifle musketeers who do you think won?) so breton currenlty ocupid and at this early point in teh story the rebelion is just starting.

[Aicanor]

It can certainly be viewed like you say, Giladis. But for the sake for this story just assume one war with DE too many can easily take their focus from the Empire. Brettonia could be weak for some reason at the moment and if Empire got Brettonia, Brett naval power would only help them. Nagash most likely used dark magic and as we know, it gives more raw power than other kinds of magic. The Slaan probably used old magic engines of the Old Ones. While Teclis is deus ex machina of WHFB world, he is not all powerful and his field of expertize is fighting Chaos, not Ironclads.
There is DE invasion pending in the story, which could certainly hold HE back a little. So far the story seems viable. The Elves cannot afford another war of the beard and they need to keep Empire relatively strong to work as shield against Chaos, so there are some possibilities to explore.
I do not think it is too far stretched. If Empire actually occupied Ulthuan, there would be some key elements of the world's balance to take care of, but so far it is nothing that didn't happen before.

[dragonkingofthestars]

and it has only begun.

to be frank i only plot a out line i have only a vauge idea whats going to happen. i've changed my mind on the fate of the glittering tower three times at this point. (First destroyed by ironclads, then survied, then destroyed but with big cannons) I'm very flexable what the plot of this story.

if i feel mid way though a chapter the elves or empire or brets would do somthing else that would make them have a diffrent out come, then i am redoing that chapter.

[Giladis]

though powerful is not all power you need a strong army or you are not going to get anywere.

Oh I agree that magic is better as a defensive than offensive tool since to conquer something you still need boots on the ground.

The problem with perception of magic in WHFB is that all of these we use in the game are minor spells. If you go and read background (both from Army Books and novels) you will see that usually a "normal" battle spell kills in the dozens if not hundreds. Everywhere magic users are shown as causing a disproprtionate amount of damage when compared to mundane weapons.

The thing about Dwarfs is that they were designed to be masters of anti-magic by the old ones just as Elves were designed as master of magic so it was an irresistible force vs an imovable object. And dwarfs do not share their runelore.

Also according to background every HE mage (not just archmage) at the White Tower that is not a dragon mage is superior to Patriachs of Collegues of Magic, it is just difficult to relate that to the tabletop game without causing either a great disbalance or making one side unplayable either being to strong or to weak.

that's the one thing i have no problem with. Empire Ironclads are cannon proof, infact they made ironcalds to counter the brets, it just so happened that by makeing there ships cannon proof they made them bolt thower proof as well.

i may have mentioned this in passing but the empires first target was breton and they took that place in 2 years, (medevil knights VS rifle musketeers who do you think won?) so breton currenlty ocupid and at this early point in teh story the rebelion is just starting.

You make the mistake of trying to compare what would happen in our world to what would happen in the WHFB world. You are ignoring magic, especially one that can't be dispelled due to being fueld by belief. As far as "blessing of the lady" is concerned Empire may have machine guns that means little if the shots are deflected because the knight believes the lady will protect him.

Also if you conquer Bretonnia good luck not alerting everybody to keep an eye on you. With two years of advance warning I really can't see Empire making a successful invasion of Ulthuan. The distance involved is to great, logistics are almost beyond imagening even if you don't count Elven resistance.

Do you know that the shortest distance from the tip of Estalia to Ulthuan is roughly 2000 miles?

[Giladis]

they need to keep Empire relatively strong to work as shield against Chaos, so there are some possibilities to explore.

You do know that is just the opinion of Teclis and not shared by most, who consider humans slightly better than orcs?


There is pottential for an Empire attack on Ulthuan it would just requier resources Empire can't spare. Even if they get more technologicaly advanced (though I can't see in what time since the world is left roughly a generation left before it is overrun by chaos - from giantslayer) they are outnumbered and besieged in their own land.

[dragonkingofthestars]

the real world is the only compresion we have to make as far as examing situatoins in warhamer goes.

for breton: i don't care if you have the blessings of the lady or not, not once in histroy (may be wrong but i doubt it) have calvary every broken a well order formation of infantry armed with pikes, spears, or muskets baynets. Peroid.

For the, under seige in there own relm thing: i presume you mean the beastmen or orks? well there we have a situaion roughly anogous to the ango zulu war were smaller more advance force defeated a much larger force, in this case it means you need a much smaller force to fend off the same number of beastmen. Gatting and puckle guns are a heck of a force mutiplier.

same goes for the elves: the force multiplier means the smaller force actualy has the advantage IF they play things smart the question becomes simple math, how many times can one man fire before the spear men across the field runs towards and stabs him in the face.

three shots a minutes for a rifle muskteer, range for a springfeild musket: 400 yards, ( modern long bow range 200 yards but come on, there elves, 260-310 yards) and unlike the civil the empire understands the range advantage and won't use smooth bore tactics. Gattings have a range of 1,000 yards.

tacticly the supply issues are not qutie as bad as one may first appear, technogy has advance to the point that the empire can defeated armys that vastly out number them.

in fact i am toneing down the power of the empire they should well be at the point of useing lever action Winchester instead muzzle loaders

so strategically the empire can pull a invasion off in my view. the question is, how powerful is magic? if the elves magic is to strong then one mage can wipe out a smaller empire army before it gets a shot off,, which begs the question of why the heck battles happen at all.

no think about if magic is the end all be all, sort of like a nuke then how come battles happen at all? won't the mages of each others side fight it out first, then the winnng side of the battle would destroy the enemy at will. magic is a powerful support weaopn, but it CAN NOT will the battle alone, not even factoring in snipers that can take them out with ease.

relying on magic is like trying to win a war with only air power. you will destroy a lot of the enemy but you can't get all of them, and unlike air craft your mage is a walking target with a big shoot me sign on his forehead.

[Aicanor]

Giladis, the books are not exceedingly accurate either. They often give conflicting information and some facts tend to change in time. Eltharion is a good example.
As for the imminent end of the world, it seems to be obsolete now Long got the reins of the series. It should have happened about ten years past and Felix never wondered. Perhaps Teclis managed to avert the catastrophe, or BL decided to forget the plot. I wondered for some time now what happened to it...
Also, did you ever notice there are usually more dead than there were people fighting? I find it quite amusing.

I know many Elves don't regard Humans much. But High Loremaster and the Phoenix King both know their value as allies (or shield, as you put it).

I wholeheartedly agree with you that it would be very difficult for Empire fleet to maintain steady supply chain. Steam engines are also very vulnerable in this way. They need resources. If they do not manage to get a foothold on Ulthuan quickly, they are doomed to fail.
If they were goaded into this campaign by DE intrigues, it actually makes sense, it is a win win situation for them. If they are unsuccessful, even Empire hold on Brettonia can waver and be overthrown... Or not.

[Prince of Spires]

Like I said, I think magic is as strong as you need it to be. We've posted a fair few different views on magic, how it works and what sort of powerlevel you should be thinking about. It's the deus ex machina of warhammer stories, which is a story tool I very much dislike, since it always feels fake. But magic is the balancer of the fantasy world.

So you need to decide how strong the empire is and how strong you need the elves to be. Then magic is the balancing factor. It very much depends on who the good guy is. If the empire is the good guy then the elves should be slightly on top. If it's the elves who are the good guys then it's the empire who is stronger. (A story is no fun if the bad guy starts of loosing...).

The only thing to keep in mind is that once magic reaches a certain level, then you can't make it weaker later in the story. That sounds to "engineerd'. So if the elves defend the glittering tower by creating a magical storm, then the next time the empire invades they can easily do the same thing.

What you should ask yourself is why the empire attacks the HE. And why they attack the glittering tower. If it's simply naval dominance, then it makes no sense to invade a country. You just start sinking all the ships you can find. Perhaps invade some of the colonies.

Same goes for territorial gains. It makes no sense to invade a heavily defended country just to gain some living space. Especially not when there are more then enough other places to live.

Wars almost always are about resources or revenge (think war of the beard). Someone has something you need or is threatening you or your resources. What do the elves have (or are thought to have) that the empire wants? Why turn on your allies of the last few hundred years?

Rod

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

I can imagine Teclis, standing atop a tower in Lothern, shaking his head and thinking "Finubar and I had high hopes of mankind one day replacing us as the protectors of this world. Such a shame we have to put you down like the rabid dogs you've become".
Reneger that while this bombardment is going on, they're trying to land troops in Yvresse.

[dragonkingofthestars]

I can imagine Teclis, standing atop a tower in Lothern, shaking his head and thinking "Finubar and I had high hopes of mankind one day replacing us as the protectors of this world. Such a shame we have to put you down like the rabid dogs you've become".
Reneger that while this bombardment is going on, they're trying to land troops in Yvresse.

nice, very nice, can i have permission to use that? whos Renger though? i also think teclis would be quite angsty, after all if it was not for him well the invasion happned and none of the the elves the humans kill would never have died.

the decision to help humans was hotly contested was it not? i think teclis will get some blow back.

If they were goaded into this campaign by DE intrigues, it actually makes sense, it is a win win situation for them. If they are unsuccessful, even Empire hold on Brettonia can waver and be overthrown... Or not.

well, ya.

in my story there are roughly three plots running at the same time, with a few going on else were. first: theres the war in Ulthan. second, there the breton rebelion, and given that i'm trying to combine authorian legend and the french revolution you can imagain the choas that plot is. there are some, five diffrent powers playing fore bretonnni, the Empire, Estalia, the black knight and his undead army, (theres explination there but if ind it hard to type out long posts here) and TWO diffrent royalist factions, not even counting Caldon here.) ya, it's a poltical nightmare.


third: theres KHazrak as he leads teh greated bray herd ever seen against a weaked and empire. with devided focus.

as for supplys? that why there going for the shifting isles there hope they can find rescorces there to help shorten them, you know trees for fuel, sulfer for gunpowder, lead for shot anything they can use.

Wars almost always are about resources or revenge (think war of the beard). Someone has something you need or is threatening you or your resources. What do the elves have (or are thought to have) that the empire wants? Why turn on your allies of the last few hundred years? Rod

i think i can easily explain this one. given the DE started it by raiding human towns all they need to do to keep the war going is keep raiding, keep makeing the empire think the high elves are attacking and burning there costal towns and villages.

i may have mentioned this before but when i said, Killed are emperore i mean the empereo tryed to stave the war off with a final last ditch try at peace via face to face meeting, only for the dark elves to kill him and sink there flag ship. so the emprie pretty ticked and they think they need to go to war to defend themsleves.

[Shannar, Sealord]

I have to agree that you majorly underestimate the supply issue. Even in WW2 if was difficult for the US to supply it's pacific fleet, and the guys on Guadalcanal almost lost just because of this. Supply is also what beat Napoleon in 1812 (the cold winter only affected the retreat, November was actually quite warm), and had a lot to do with the Russian defeat of the Germans in WWII. Honestly I don't think the US wins the Revolution or the War of 1812 if the Atlantic ocean was any smaller.

After all, you can't build a railroad to Ulthuan. This sort of issue rarely makes the stories, but when you're out there with only what you can carry and the shooting starts it hits home.

[ImperialFisted]

Okay then gentlemen, first, an introduction. I am Kura, and I am co-authoring wiht Patrick (DKOTS) on this story (I was originally his beta). Just to qualify, HIS conservative estimate puts this at 500 pages. MINE puts it at closer to 750. We are aware that we are already raping BL canon with the entire concept, but we are trying to keep at least some (fantasy) realism in the story. I am personally rooting for the Empire, as I am primarily a 40K player and my disdain for spess elves also applies to non-spess elves. My portrayal of the men of the Empire is somewhere between the English of Bernard Cornwell's "Sharpe" series and Pre-Unification Prussian junkers. The way I see it, this story is heading for a cataclysmic final battle somewhere around page 600 (think helicopter overfly, soundtrack by Woods Of Ypres), and that's what I'm writing towards. High Elves really aren't my thing, in Fantasy I mostly play Empire and Orcs & Goblins, so I won't argue High Elf-specific stuff on here, but to give you fair warning, everything else is fair game.
Kura

[Aicanor]

Well, it is your story to write. It poses some interesting problems if you want the Empire to win this. I do not think it is very realistic for them to get Ulthuan. To win a naval battle and break Elven domination of the seas, yes, perhaps.
If they do, they will not have peace in foreseeable future. If they get over the resistance, Dark Elf invasion, mutations due to the winds of magic there, they better figure out how to maintain the Vortex by themselves. Or enjoy last few years of the world, most likely. Interesting, as I said.

[dragonkingofthestars]

Well, it is your story to write. It poses some interesting problems if you want the Empire to win this. I do not think it is very realistic for them to get Ulthuan. To win a naval battle and break Elven domination of the seas, yes, perhaps.
If they do, they will not have peace in foreseeable future. If they get over the resistance, Dark Elf invasion, mutations due to the winds of magic there, they better figure out how to maintain the Vortex by themselves. Or enjoy last few years of the world, most likely. Interesting, as I said.

i wish i could answer that question but that would be a bit spoiler if i told you how it was goign to end, but now i need a new answer.

Teclis taught the empire how to use magics, and they are quite arbable the strongest human magic uses that we know of (i'm unsure of the power of mages form Carthy, nippon, Ind, Estiali and tilla) but what did the other elves make of that decision?

this will effect some of the elven poltiking in this story, after all if only a few people were found of the idea in teh frist place who's going to listen to Teclis (and to a lesser extent his brother) ever again?

[Aicanor]

This is an interesting question. To a degree it can be made to suit the story best. In the time he made his decision it was one of the few ways to repel Chaos incursion. I also think it was a decision made in hope that somewhere in far future Humans will be able to handle the problem of keeping the waystone net stable (blasphemy of course). Not quite there yet, I think. Also the system is devised to help keep human mages from Chaos corruption.
It can be argued that without this, Chaos would already overrun the Old World. No matter how you look at the evil of Empire attack, Chaos is still worse. He had suppport from Finubar and I don't see that change. Tyrion is champion of the Everqueen and as long as he has her favour, his position is strong. There will be those that will blame Teclis of being too friendly with treacherous Humankind, but the Empire is not defeating them by magic really.

[dragonkingofthestars]

sure the empires not defeating them with magic, but the is a factor. There the Empires only counter to the high elf mages, and even in that case (ast least in the naval battle i have so far) they just take the 'sting' of the magic out letting the Ironclads armor take the weakened blow.

[Aicanor]

Your call, I think. I will still think in long term it was a good thing to do. You never know what Elven mages see of the future. And we all know Elves will not be here forever.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Your call, I think. I will still think in long term it was a good thing to do. You never know what Elven mages see of the future. And we all know Elves will not be here forever.

Speak for yourself m'lady of Saphery, this is the ever empire. We will be here until the end of the world.

[Shannar, Sealord]

Your call, I think. I will still think in long term it was a good thing to do. You never know what Elven mages see of the future. And we all know Elves will not be here forever.

Speak for yourself m'lady of Saphery, this is the ever empire. We will be here until the end of the world.

Or at least darn close to it given the vortex and what not.

[Elessehta of Yvresse]

Without our maintenance of the network, the winds of magic would blow out of control, and either daemons would overrun the world, or some lesser wizard would bring one of the moons down or some other cataclysmic event ^_^'

[dragonkingofthestars]

Your call, I think. I will still think in long term it was a good thing to do. You never know what Elven mages see of the future. And we all know Elves will not be here forever.

Speak for yourself m'lady of Saphery, this is the ever empire. We will be here until the end of the world.

Or at least darn close to it given the vortex and what not.

either we last till the end of the world,,

Or the were make the world last to the end of us!

on a more serious questions with regard to my story, how much, if at all, would the dwarfs end up getting inolved?

or rather would they get invovled at all (I don't see them sending armys in nay case, but a few sappers and submarine support would be in the realm of posiblity?)

A discusion in a diffrent thread leands credece to me the thought that the dwarfs would help the empire out if they had been raided by the "high" elves, even as the empire counter atacked.

the quto is.

You are correct but so am I. I'll have to dig out the exact quote but the current Dwarf stance is.

We know those other elves did it but hold all elves responsible for the actions of the few, esepecialy the Phoenix King, since he is the king. Which is mighty hypocritical considering the existance of the Chaos Dwarfs.

if that is the cannon dwarf stance on the issue then i think i could add some dwarf support and still have it as canon as such a fan fic can get, and a bit more importantly, have it make sense.

thoughts?