Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:07 pm 
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The Glittering tower, a tatanic fortfication slash lighthouse with quote "great seige engines.

I'm working on a stroy and I need some facts about it.

ONE: what was it built do to? there is a world of diffrence between a tower built to throw off norse raiders and one built to counter the dark elves

Second: how powerful are those'great engines' are we look at standard eagle claw bolt thowers, just a lot of them, or are we talking things that are harder to move but punch harder.

third: what would it take to destroy it? self explantory really.

fourth: what kind of personal would be found in it? sea guard clearly but how many? and what about mages, how many of them? how strong?

lastly: how does it sit in the strait of Eatain? is there a large gap of deep water to either side? does it sit on a island? can you get close to it, with out getting close to the Emeralrd gate? or rather, getting in range of the emerld gate own weapons?

Note I have asked this before but i think a forum dedicated to teh high elves, would net a far more comprhensive answer.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:08 pm 
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I can show you at least what it looks like from one point of view:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:37 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:32 am 
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Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:


well that answers question five: (how does it sit in the strait of Eatain) Just how cannon are these playing card images? still need help wtih question one-four though,


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:40 am 
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It may have started off a just a light house, but with all those Eagle Claws it's now a first line of defense. Destroying it would take a great deal of magic, I guess you could crash into it with a black ark... You would surely find Sea Guard, maybe some mages to keep the light.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:41 am 
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I seem to remember that there is a battle being fought about it in the sons of elyrion novels. I think it's just out of range of the firepower on the emerald gate. But it is in sight. So you can see what's going on on the tower from the emerald gate.

As for what it was build to do, I don't think there is any definitive answer on that. However, I think it is safe to assume that almost all defences on ulthuan are build to repel DE invaders. They are by far the most competent and likely invaders of Ulthuan. Anything that sees them off should see off other races as well. And invasions from races other then DE are rare.

As for what it would take to take it, I think they used a black arc back-ed up by Malekith on dragon in the sons of elyrion novel. And that was pretty much nescesary from what I remember from the description in the book.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:08 am 
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rdghuizing wrote:
I seem to remember that there is a battle being fought about it in the sons of elyrion novels. I think it's just out of range of the firepower on the emerald gate. But it is in sight. So you can see what's going on on the tower from the emerald gate.


well that's handy.

rdghuizing wrote:
As for what it was build to do, I don't think there is any definitive answer on that. However, I think it is safe to assume that almost all defences on ulthuan are build to repel DE invaders. They are by far the most competent and likely invaders of Ulthuan. Anything that sees them off should see off other races as well. And invasions from races other then DE are rare..


I was under the assuption that the DE only atttacked from the north not the south, so the tower would have been built to hold off the younger races, say the dwarfs in the war of the beard, or just in case the empire got frisky (in my High elf army book there is a path plotting the invasion rout of Magnus the mad so it likely proved it's worth there) or, it could be even older then that, any odds on if it was built to fight off demons?

rdghuizing wrote:
As for what it would take to take it, I think they used a black arc back-ed up by Malekith on dragon in the sons of elyrion novel. And that was pretty much nescesary from what I remember from the description in the book..


And these black arks are basickly floating magic castles,,,

That opens up the question of how strong the towers seige engines ares, clearly strong enough to damage a solid stone floating castle, but everything I've read have said that eagle claw bolt thowers are elligent, but not as strong as cannon fire, which would be my go too for castle destruction. So just how much damage did they do to the black ark?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:47 am 
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The only thing that can challenge a black ark is a dragonship, and only because of the huge magical blades either side.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:22 pm 
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dragonkingofthestars wrote:
So just how much damage did they do to the black ark?


Not nearly enough. :wink:

In the Defenders of Ulthuan, Druchii make a combined attack on Ulthuan (dear old Morathi with her allies from the North and second army led by Malekith attacks Lothern).

The book says that each bastion of the tower was equipped with scores of bolt throwers and garrisoned by hundreds of Sea Guard. There are also mages. The architecture is blended seamlessly to the rock of the island beneath. Or was until the Arc crashed into it. :mrgreen:

There are two ways to fight the Black Ark, first: Break the spells so it sinks. That is not easy to do - what Elessehta said about Dragon Ships is one proven way, second way is to get Gotrek and Felix plus an ancient artefact of great destructive power onto it (Elfslayer).
Second: Kill every single Druchii inside it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
The book says that each bastion of the tower was equipped with scores of bolt throwers and garrisoned by hundreds of Sea Guard. There are also mages. The architecture is blended seamlessly to the rock of the island beneath. Or was until the Arc crashed into it. :mrgreen: .


ok, so the tower has the standard run of the issue Eagle claw bolt throwers, just a lot of them.

Is it armed with anything heavyer?

also: so the tower did not do a lot of damage to the ark, how much damage did the ark do to the tower? and how long did it take to do the damage it did do?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:20 pm 
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There are other torsion based warmachines on Ulthuan but none apart from Eagle Claw are ever mentioned.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Giladis wrote:
There are other torsion based warmachines on Ulthuan but none apart from Eagle Claw are ever mentioned.


well short of bolt throwers only catapults or onagers are torsion based, and there not real useful for use in a tower. The quetstion with these other Torsion is how powerful they are, and how common are they?

I doubt there much more powerful then the standard Eagle claw or the high elves may have had a eaiser time fighting off that black ark.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:03 pm 
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dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Is it armed with anything heavier?


Magic. It can be better then artillery.

dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Also: so the tower did not do a lot of damage to the ark, how much damage did the ark do to the tower? and how long did it take to do the damage it did do?


As much as it did to the Ark, probably. Think two great fortresses crashing together. Some walls were crushed, some were melted by magic. As the Glittering lighthouse lost its advantage of being higher than any ship, it was invaded quite easily once the Arc settled in place. It was damaged and seized by the Druchii, but not destroyed. The battle was not longer than a few hours.
The Glittering Tower was apparently not designed to withstand a grand siege like this (there was a fleet of Druchii beside the Arc), but to weather smaller attacks and be helped by Lothern war fleet in need (which was not the case in the book, but not for the lack of trying).

Also it is says that the lighthouse is almost a mile away from the Emerald Gate.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:57 pm 
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dragonkingofthestars wrote:
Giladis wrote:
There are other torsion based warmachines on Ulthuan but none apart from Eagle Claw are ever mentioned.


well short of bolt throwers only catapults or onagers are torsion based, and there not real useful for use in a tower.


Well the Eagle Claw is basically a multishot scorpio so I guess they could have larger versions shooting stone balls or even some kind of orbs filled with magical liquids that either ignite when they break or freeze, or induce coughing seazures ect...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Giladis wrote:
Well the Eagle Claw is basically a multishot scorpio so I guess they could have larger versions shooting stone balls or even some kind of orbs filled with magical liquids that either ignite when they break or freeze, or induce coughing seazures ect...


not, quite true, the Eagle claw bolt thowers are more like the Greek Polybolos or repeating balista and while are devious little minds could cook up any number of devastating torsion based weapons is there any evidence for anything other then eagle claw thowers, even if it's just a line in a book about weapons 'more lethal then the eagle claw thowers.'

addtionaly: how strong is the tower brick work? how easy (or hard) is it destroy? we know the black ark took little damage from the tower, but how much did it inflict?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:49 pm 
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I read through the book again and there is really not much on war machines. DE have heavy bolt throwers, ladders and some siege ramps (from the Ark). High Elves probably also have bolt trowers of various sizes, but I do not remember if it is mentioned. Most damage on both sides was caused by magic (Malekith annihilated Saphire Gate with magic). Glittering Lighthouse however was used by the DE as a base after they seized it, so the damage couldn't be significant.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:35 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
I read through the book again and there is really not much on war machines. DE have heavy bolt throwers, ladders and some siege ramps (from the Ark). High Elves probably also have bolt trowers of various sizes, but I do not remember if it is mentioned. Most damage on both sides was caused by magic (Malekith annihilated Saphire Gate with magic). Glittering Lighthouse however was used by the DE as a base after they seized it, so the damage couldn't be significant.


so, the damage was mostly magic based, from what i've heard the towers pretty much immune to physical attack as most of the damage was magical in nature, and even then the damage was not enough to dangeirously harm the structural integrity.

given the kinds of magic the DE commonly throw around I think it's safe to say the tower is pretty dang strong Defensivly on the offense the tower did little damage to the black ark in return (and to be fair the black arks a gaint friggen castle floating via magic not exactly a easy target).

So the offensive power (we say lots of bolt thowers and a few bigger ones) is well known, and the defensive power is well known (pretty strong).

I think i have what i need, the attackers lose but for compleatness sake I'll get more direct and ask out right.

Assuming a ship could get close enough to the tower: how many times would it have to fire a 64 pound cannon ball into the tower to bring it down.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:28 pm 
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I never tried it, so I do not know, but even so I think that it would take forever. Conquering good battlements was seldom quick in history. The Glittering Tower stands upon a high rock and that is not the best target for a ship (the Ark was a better choice - it is much higher and therefore took away this advantage). The Lighthouse can most likely be taken only by overwhelming force. Otherwise war ships of Lothern will join battle long before the garrison gets into real trouble. In my imagination, at least. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
I never tried it, so I do not know, but even so I think that it would take forever. Conquering good battlements was seldom quick in history. The Glittering Tower stands upon a high rock and that is not the best target for a ship (the Ark was a better choice - it is much higher and therefore took away this advantage). The Lighthouse can most likely be taken only by overwhelming force. Otherwise war ships of Lothern will join battle long before the garrison gets into real trouble. In my imagination, at least. :)


Humm,, the rock would make short range targeting a bit tricky for my gunboats given the short range of there Carronade, i suppose i they can pull of a 45 degree barrel elivation and then they can pull it off.

But won't the elves have the same problem aiming DOWN at the hostile ships? in fact would be harder for them to get there bolt thowers, but then since the towers magic seems to be more powerful then there bolt throwers that would likely not be a problem.

as for the navy form Lothern? ya, in this situation there not a facttor: Gott segne die Panzerschiff!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Once the enemy ship is too close, the RBT's will probably be useless. Then they have magic and archers. Mages or fiery missiles can set fire to rigging of a sail ship. Archers can kill the rowers of a rowboat if they are not shielded from above or destroy the oars. I imagine thay could have a real problem with something like Dwarven ironclad.
What do you have in mind anyway (if it is not a secret)?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
Once the enemy ship is too close, the RBT's will probably be useless. Then they have magic and archers. Mages or fiery missiles can set fire to rigging of a sail ship. Archers can kill the rowers of a rowboat if they are not shielded from above or destroy the oars. I imagine thay could have a real problem with something like Dwarven ironclad.
What do you have in mind anyway (if it is not a secret)?


funny you should mention dwarf Ironclads,,,

Standing in for a Empire Griffion class gunboat, the USS Cairo, a Casemen Iron clade.

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armed with 64 pound rifled Carronade cannons (which, it should bear mentioning are also Parrotte rifles) built for in shorn heavy bomardment.

the primary attacking fleet are 18 of these suckers supported by five torpedo destroyers with three prow lunchers each, a Cruiser, and a core of classifyed allys.

In this story the empire has advanced to the 19th centery technology level, were talking rifle muskets, gattling guns, explosive shells, rifled cannons and steam power, lot of steam power. (also: later in the story Telegraphs)

after a boarder clash esclated they occupied Bretonnia and some Dark elf meddling made them think the high elves were to blame for a large number of raids along there north cost, like what happened in the war of the beard.

So far: (for about three chapters to be fair) the empires has won the first naval battle, turns out: empire Ironclads (think HMS warrior but smaller) are bolt thrower proof (though the destroyers have some problems due to there thiner armor).

right now the empires starting to dig in within the southern shifting isle, they hope to create a string of island forts and some local industy to try and shorten there supply lines, meanwhile a task force was sent to try and mine the strait of Eatain and set a floating battery (a failed ironclad design) out side the strait to try and bottle the fleet in Lothern the plan was to take the tower out so they could set the mines up nice to either side of the island it sits in.

how ever: in this case from what i read on this thread i think the Empire will have bitten off more then it can chew and is going to fail in it's assualt. therefore there going to have to set up the floating battery a fair bit out and lay there mines less effectivly then they wanted.

so war goes.

(PS my smart ass german in my last post was god bless the ironclads)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:14 am 
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A dragonship's dragon blade would carve one of those in half ^_^

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:09 am 
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Well, this kind of invasion gives me creeps. I like the idea, it is original and I would certainly like to read the story. But to imagine WWI warfare against arrows and magic... One thing to bear in mind is that as the Empire got more advanced, so would probably the Elves. They needed to find answers for new threats out there. I think magic artefacts and strong protective magic would be their way. At least in my head. :D hey would have to devise some armour piercing misiles. Metal college of magic would also be invaluable and real pain for Empire generals. But they have magic of their own, they have counters.
Otherwise the Empire would make away with Elven fleet in no time (I fear even the Dragonship is of no use if it is sunk before it gets to the enemy, Elessehta!). If they were able to catch it, that is. Also, the Shifting Isles have protective magic of its own, something like Bermuda Triangle.
I suspected that the German meant something like that, but the verb was unknown to me and it was too late in the night. It reminded me of the Dwarven ships though. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:42 pm 
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HaHa~ High Elves own the Seas, they wouldn't let some race of children take control.
The amount of magic involved in making a Dragonship means it would take more than some cannon fire to take one down. It took a whole fleet of Corsairs to take down Caledor's ship after it was separated in the storm.
Any invasion of Ulthuan would be a challenge since the mists went up, anyone who who enters gets turned around. It would take powerful magic to pierce it, and the mages who monitor the mists and keep them going would sense this, there would be ample warning. No race will ever be better than us at Magic.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
A dragonship's dragon blade would carve one of those in half ^_^


they do and it happens at least five times just in chapter three. But they need to get close enough. standard armiment of the Empire navy are 12 pound Parriot rifles: and it should be said the 10 pounder parriot rifles can fire a high explosive shothave a range of 2,000 yards so the 12 pounders are likely a little farther then that.

Fancy magic blades are all well and good (hell even in ARE world Ramming was thought to be the primary weapon of a Ironcald for a while) but if you can get blown out of the water at 2,000+ yards

Aicanor wrote:
Well, this kind of invasion gives me creeps. I like the idea, it is original and I would certainly like to read the story. But to imagine WWI warfare against arrows and magic... One thing to bear in mind is that as the Empire got more advanced, so would probably the Elves. They needed to find answers for new threats out there. I think magic artefacts and strong protective magic would be their way. At least in my head. :D hey would have to devise some armour piercing misiles. Metal college of magic would also be invaluable and real pain for Empire generals. But they have magic of their own, they have counters.
Otherwise the Empire would make away with Elven fleet in no time (I fear even the Dragonship is of no use if it is sunk before it gets to the enemy, Elessehta!). If they were able to catch it, that is. Also, the Shifting Isles have protective magic of its own, something like Bermuda Triangle.
I suspected that the German meant something like that, but the verb was unknown to me and it was too late in the night. It reminded me of the Dwarven ships though. :lol:



The elves are a bit like dwarfs in this regard: the weapons and tactics they use have not changed since Daemon wars for pitty sake! they are proud, arogent and dismissive of the 'human sasuage slurpers) it would take somthing major to get them on the technology. like say: a full invasion from the Empire that trumps them.

it's not quite the frist world war, (though when they come up with they will combine gattlings guns and Barbed wire) more of the american civil war, and even that had hints of the trenches to come.

also: what do you mean about the Shifting isles? this is the first i've heard of it. being like the

Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
HaHa~ High Elves own the Seas, they wouldn't let some race of children take control.
The amount of magic involved in making a Dragonship means it would take more than some cannon fire to take one down. It took a whole fleet of Corsairs to take down Caledor's ship after it was separated in the storm.
Any invasion of Ulthuan would be a challenge since the mists went up, anyone who who enters gets turned around. It would take powerful magic to pierce it, and the mages who monitor the mists and keep them going would sense this, there would be ample warning. No race will ever be better than us at Magic.



In regard to the dragonship: I again point out the range and strees there fireing explosive shot, and explosive shot meant the end of wooden ships in genearl.

as for the Island: ok, that begs the question just how hard IS IT to sail to Ulthuan if these mists keep enemy ships away? i know they often get invaded by the norse often, and a gobllin (Gorm the Paunch) managed to get to Ulthuan once. if what you say is ture then no ship would be able to get to Ulthuan yet that is not the case.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:16 pm 
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The Norse invasions were stopped once the mists went up, and Grom had powerful magic on his side, which only got stronger once he made landfall.
He lost three quarters of his forces before he got to Yvresse. His timing was spot on, with one of the major strongholds in the north almost empty of soldiers(they went with Eltharion), Grom's shaman gained huge amounts of power from desecrating the Waystones. The intrigue at court meant that a fool was appointed to lead the army against him, and they were routed, my character's father was a commander in that army and died that day.
Druchii witches are the only way they find their way back so often, and from what I've seen Men just don't have what it takes. The amount of warning Ulthuan would have wouldn't make it easy for the Empire too. Even if the new Empire ships were more powerful, guerilla warfare works just as good on the Seas as it does in the jungle, especially with Magic added in. I love to see people challenging our power, they're like insects before our might, especially at home. Damn it, now I want to read the story!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:01 pm 
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There are two problems that keep you from reading it for a while.

first: I may need to revamp the invasion if these mists are as strong as you say there are. humm, if goblins could have pulled it off you think human mages could? supported with good compass and Marine Chronometers? (I'm rubish with hyper links here so here it is directly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer)

Second: THE STORY HAS YET TO BEGIN!! Me and my beta are looking at it being 500 pages long,,, as a conservative estimanet. I have the invasion of Ulthan, revoultion in Breton, the last brayherd riseing up, the formation of caledonia in norther Breton, a Four way war between the Bretons, the empire, the Estilians and a vampire undead army for Bretonnia. And more!

All this while I'm laying the the ground work for the rise of the Ogre Empire, a dwarf civil war, and other base work for a half dozen story elements and plot threads that have to be picked up in the NEXT story at the same time.

Gentlmen: If i can get this sucker to work it will be epic if i do say so my self.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Elves may be arrogant and conservative, but they know what is at stake. That they do not go the same way as Humans doesn't mean they do nothing new.
Elven ships are built from trees infused with magic, I guess they can give them more protection then. They will not use steam engines, but they have other means.
The Shifting Isles are very hard to navigate, because they, well, shift. :) Ships have tendency to vanish there. But it just means that 'your' attack on Lothern makes sense. There is no such protection there, or much less.

All that in one story? Or even two? Ambitious.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Aicanor wrote:
Elves may be arrogant and conservative, but they know what is at stake. That they do not go the same way as Humans doesn't mean they do nothing new.
Elven ships are built from trees infused with magic, I guess they can give them more protection then. They will not use steam engines, but they have other means.


While your idea about infusing the elve ship with more magic works, the problem with that is, sure all your NEW ships are going to be stronger, but how ofter do the high elves build new ships? and what happens to all the old ships that are weaker? and they can't even make new Dragon ships any more. and frankly I don't care you how much magic you infuse a tree with, a 12 pound high explosive cannon ball is going to blow a hole in it.

napoleon cannons (Smooth bores it should be said) fired a 12 pound ball that broke the sound barrier. a rifled cannon, much like a rifled musket, will have better range, and should be even faster since it's not bouncing down the barrel.

also: how would the elves KNOW they needed to change what has worked for well over a thousand years? this is the first major war between the High elves and Empire, and only the Empires second, third war ever with there new model army,, (if one counts the purge of Sylvania as a war)

Aicanor wrote:
The Isles are very hard to navigate, ships have tendency to vanish there. But it just means that 'your' attack on Lothern makes sense. There is no such protection there, or much less.


Glad to know my first wave make's sense then, how should i write about the actual attack on the main land? how do i factor these mists in?

Aicanor wrote:
All that in one story? Or even two? Ambitious.


it started with a just a basic outline were the EMpire took over Breton (Knights vs gattlings, who do you think wins?) and then took on the elves,, a very, verly baddly, one out line. (Shivers) seriously, I if you can find the very first copy of this stroy i posted to heresy online i will kill you, just, just bleegh.

from there everything took off, what happens in breton? how do the people respond do the Empire? how does Kislev feel about the new empire to there south? who takes advantage of the empires devided focus? Will the Estilians decided they want some Breton while they were weak? and how about the Dwarfs? how do they feel about all this? do they help? and what happens when a bunch of skaven get there hands on a gattling guns? or a Ironclad? how does THAT related back to the dwarfs?

You go deep enough in a big setting like this and you kick up countless storys and tales to be told.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:35 pm 
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The Clubslinger
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What is the state of Imperial magic in your timeline?


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