Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Browsing GW.com and saw his product description for Teclis.

He is not a master of swordplay or strategy. However he is the greatest living Mage in this age of the World, and his mastery of the magical arts is unsurpassed by any living creature.


And if I remember correctly, he was compared as equal to Nagash. So he's elven Nagash.

Tyrion now, has this about him:

Prince Tyrion is the greatest living warrior of the High Elves and for many years he has defended Ulthuan and led the High Elves to many great victories. Some believe that he will one day take the Phoenix Crown, though Tyrion pays no heed to such rumours and continues to serve the current Phonix King with unswerving loyalty. As an Elven commander, Tyrion is a naturally skilful warrior and with the sword Sunfang in his grasp he is nigh unstoppable. His combination of potent magic items and heroic abilities makes Tyrion the perfect leader for any High Elf army.


and people say he's so good, he's like Aenarion reborn. So he could probably hold his own against Archaon, Lord of Chaos then.

Then there's Eltarion, which has this to say:
Eltharion the Grim was one of the greatest of all Elven lords, the son of the noblest stock and a superb warrior. He is the only High Elf commander to launch a successful attack on the city of Naggarond itself, an action that earned him the lasting enmity of the Witch King.


So here's my question. If you're a king of a fading race, like the High Elves, and you have sworn enemies across the sea, in the Dark Elves, who may not be fading at all, or not fading at the same rate as you, you don't know, and you have this golden opportunity where you have Aenarion reborn and Elven Nagash still alive, then why wouldn't you use them to wipe Naggaroth out? And take/ reverse engineer all their stuff?
Elves in Warhammer are mortal, long lived, but mortal. So they're not going to be around forever. Unlike the Witch King and Morathi, who are immortal, so there will never be a better opportunity to neutralize them once and for all. Furthermore, the last Dark Elven attack was only stopped by the intervention of Tyrion and Teclis, as memory serves. So when they're not around anymore, and have died of old age, or unlikely as it is, have been slain, what are the High Elves going to do then? Pray another pair comes along soon? That seems like a real long shot doesn't it?
There's the story where Tyron was poisoned by a witch elf, and cornered by a keeper of secrets. Then Teclis banishes it, seemingly effortlessly. Greater Daemons are often described as terrifying for whole armies to face. So if he can do that, why can't he destroy Malekith? Especially considering that Malekith ran like a little girl from Teclis. If these magicians can best whole armies, then it really comes down to the battle between the special characters. So my question is ultimately, what's holding these guys back? I'm not saying the Dark Elves should be wiped out completely, because fianancially that's not very smart for GW, but they could work as a race on the run, until some kind of counter saviour comes along. Example, why can't Teclis beat Malekith and Morathi and use his magic to reprogram the minds of every other dark elf, if he's that good?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Limited resources would be my guess. The loss of life required to wipe out the Dark Elves would doom the High Elves, and Malekith would probably trigger the magical equivalent of a nuclear bomb in the process and doom the world.

So the good guys are stuck on the defensive for the most part. The fact that the Warhammer World is a kind of static powder keg makes it a good environment for gaming. There's lots of potential there, but the writers aren't going to connect the dots for you - there has to be something there for the players to play with.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:56 pm 
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Historically, expeditions to Naggaroth have been disastrous yes, but alas, they didn't have Aenarion reborn and Elven Nagash! What's stopping them from brokering a deal with the Empire, where they promise them a part of Malekith's wealth? It would remove a threat from the world that's been bothering both factions. As for the nuclear attack, isn't Teclis able to dispel that?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:19 pm 
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Well... I may well be wrong, but here's how I see it:

The Empire has its own problems, being right on the border with the Northern Wastes and its forests filled with Beastmen - its powerful, but just about every single race is held in check by something, Jenga style. I'm not saying that what you're point out couldn't happen, but its not going to be written by GW. The last world-changing storyline event they had was the Storm of Chaos, and although I personally liked it, there was a lot of fan-backlash for how it was handled and how they subsequently retconned/down-played everything that happened.

The High Elves definitely have more elf-power than the Dark Elves, who in turn have more power than the Wood Elves, but the High Elves are essentially a lazy, hedonistic, peace-loving people - this is not mentioned much in the current background, because they want you to be inspired to play them, but there are signs.

Tyrion is mentioned in some Black Library books as being frequently pissed off - he considers himself to be a true warrior, while everyone else is a peace loving, delusional fool. The Everqueen is kind of his foil, which keeps him from going berserk. He's got the Curse of Aenerion in spades - he's a good guy, he's defending the island, but he's also a violent warrior and he hears voices.

Teclis version of the Curse is similar, but different - he's greedy. Not so much in a power-mongering, direct way, but he's got an intellectual curiosity bordering on insanity. This is why he is so much more powerful than the mages around him, and while there's a lot of respect and awe, there's also a lot of jealousy and fear. He's the High Loremaster, but I'm willing to bet that he has to justify all his actions to his peers in triplicate if he wants to do anything more than go to the bathroom by himself.

So they're both very flawed, checked heroes, as powerful as they may be. They're also singular-entities, and still need the help and support of armies to support their actions. Teclis blows up an army in a book, yes, but I'm sure he needed a kip afterwards - he's not going to single-handily wipe out the entire Dark Elf race, and Malekith, and Morathi, and her witch covens, all by himself. Similarly, Tyrion, despite being a tremendous warrior, can't cut down every Dark Elf by himself.

They both need to lead and inspire armies, and as I said, most High Elves are not violently minded. They're far more interested in art, music, peaceable magic and quality of life... where the Dark Elf race, despite being much smaller, is far more Spartan and geared almost entirely for warfare and death, is more single-minded and led by a Tyrant. I liken the High Elves to a sleeping dragon - when attacked, and the populace can get behind a single idea, they ARE much more powerful than the Dark Elves, but it takes something like an Invasion of Ulthuan for that to happen.

This is why they are always on the defense, and it also answers why the Dark Elves don't just invade Ulthuan and wipe them all out. Instead, you get a much more subtle, and sort of realistic, balance of powers scenario - if this race attacks this one directly with full force, it will wipe itself out, and this one will gain in power, and then conquer this one, etc. Rather than committing themselves to a direct battle, most races engage in the equivalent of large-scale skirmishes. The High Elves seem to be trying to trade their way to a 'cultural victory', while the Dark Elves are pirates and raiders and slavers.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Tyrion is the ultimate offencive/defencive tool, I say defencive because he rarely leaves the side of the everqueen. Teclis, since becoming the high loremaster, is probably busy administrating the white tower and the vast network of waystones.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:43 pm 
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But this is an Empire problem. Their towns get raided and their citizens get taken to the most horrible torture imaginable. Would Sigmar approve of doing nothing about it?

Didn't Nagash bring down a powerful civillization by himself? Nehekara I believe. Teclis may not be able to beat Malekith, Morathi, all the Coven by himslef, but all the Sorcerors of the white tower and perhaps Empire mages as backup, can surely.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the decision of one man. Finubar the Seafarer. If the slow death of the high elves is mostly caused by the dark elves, the time is now, to decide, if he'd rather his kingdom die a slow death, or use the golden opportunity they have now, to make the grab for survival. For an optimistic future. Because if Tyrion and Teclis was all that stood between Malekith and victory last time, then shouldn't he make a plan for when those two are no longer around?

GW won't write it of course, as it'll make Dark Elves less cool to most people who want to collect them. Although to me, if the fluff doesn't make sense, I don't find it cool. Malekith believing that he can invade Ultuan with Tyrion and Teclis alive, just makes him sound delusional, not terrifying.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:06 pm 
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As Milliardo noted, Tyrion and Teclis are just two individuals. The may be very powerful, but they can't take down whole nations. Not least because unlike Nagash or Malekith or Morathi, they consider the consequences to the world as a whole.
Like Elessehta pointed out, there are other things they need to take care of, not least to defend the net of waystones across the world from serious harm. No small feat.
On top of this, if High Elves launch a full fledged assault on Noggaroth, Ulthuan will be poorly defended ad Dark Elves are not the only ones who desire to overthrow Ulthuan - whether it is Daemons of Chaos or greedy Humans...
So it is a sort of a stalemate in my view.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Your forgetting the Vortex. Any attack against one foe will leave Ulthuan vulnerable and the Deamons are just waiting for that 'lowering of the shield' shall we say so they can strike and close this Votex once and for all, allowing them to finally bring all their might into the warhammer world again and this time destroy it.

I think Finubar would order an attack to wipe out the Druchii once and for all but the responsibilities of defending both the Vortex and their homeland has to come first, because if Ulthuan falls, so does the world. The same can be said about the Empire if the forces of the north break through their lines it will upset the fine balance and the remaining nations will be overrun.

Its the Tomb Kings that gets me. Nagash and all other lords has to see what would happen to their hard fought immortality if the forces of Chaos won, they wouldn't be spared. Same goes for the Vampire Counts. Hell even Ogres must be smart enough to know that Chaos will kill all their food!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Those defences were all in place and worked fine before Tyrion and Teclis existed. So those two are excess. If one looked at the excess forces between the High Elves and the Empire, assuming there's no great Chaos invasion pending by an Everchosen. then I would say the Dark Elves should have been defeated in the time of relative peace before Archaon's era. After all, the High Elves have sent expeditions to naggaroth before, and Ulthuan wasn't swarmed by Daemons because of it. All they have to do really is repeat that, but add Tyrion and Teclis and some Empire, if they are able to.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:43 pm 
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The Silly Dragon wrote:
Its the Tomb Kings that gets me. Nagash and all other lords has to see what would happen to their hard fought immortality if the forces of Chaos won, they wouldn't be spared. Same goes for the Vampire Counts. Hell even Ogres must be smart enough to know that Chaos will kill all their food!
I'm not sure about TK, but VC have fought against Chaos - they saved the Empire's collective bacon at one point. I think it might have even been the Storm of Chaos.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:50 pm 
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~Milliardo~ wrote:
The Silly Dragon wrote:
Its the Tomb Kings that gets me. Nagash and all other lords has to see what would happen to their hard fought immortality if the forces of Chaos won, they wouldn't be spared. Same goes for the Vampire Counts. Hell even Ogres must be smart enough to know that Chaos will kill all their food!
I'm not sure about TK, but VC have fought against Chaos - they saved the Empire's collective bacon at one point. I think it might have even been the Storm of Chaos.


In the time of legends, one of Vlad's motives to become the emperor is to opose Chaos.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Blackmanga wrote:
Those defences were all in place and worked fine before Tyrion and Teclis existed. So those two are excess. If one looked at the excess forces between the High Elves and the Empire, assuming there's no great Chaos invasion pending by an Everchosen. then I would say the Dark Elves should have been defeated in the time of relative peace before Archaon's era. After all, the High Elves have sent expeditions to naggaroth before, and Ulthuan wasn't swarmed by Daemons because of it. All they have to do really is repeat that, but add Tyrion and Teclis and some Empire, if they are able to.


I should think to wipe out the Druchii or to scatter them so they can never regroup would take alot more force then what was used for past incursions (which never got really far anyways with only 1 actual success). So a greater force would be needed which means pulling Empire or someone else into the fight as well. This lowers the defense of 2 nations. Who is to say the Deamons aren't waiting and biding their time for the goodies to make a wrong move.

Think about it. The Empire send a big force to help the Asur attack the Druchii. Its all going well but then the Empire lands get invaded and the army fighting with us then wants to return and defend their home. Say they leave and then on our own the great army with both Ts gets overrun and its deep in unfamiliar lands. Now they have to fight their way back to Ulthuan while being picked apart by guerilla tactics and assasination attempts. The force used against the Druchii would be tired, weakened and demoralised so a counter attack by the Dark Elves and their Deamon allies will then have a great advantage against Ulthuan, potentially winning. Just look at the War of the Beard.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:52 am 
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Logistics of this large military expedition to naggaroth would be difficult. Ships would have to be built to get all the troops there. Naggaroth is not particularly inviting country, so food would have to be supplied by ships as well, you would need to deal with harsh weather and would probably end to fight not only Druchii, but indefinite supply of their Chaos allies from the Wastes. If the situation warrants, they will risk this alliance. Such war can't be won in one battle. And what if you win? Leave Naggaroth to Chaos tribes, try to defend it? Try to fight on yet another front?
What would you do if you were a Phoenix King?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:07 am 
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Quote:
What would you do if you were a Phoenix King?

Good question.

I would try and form an alliance of all races of the world that are not Chaos or Chaos allies (Dark Elves, Skaven, Beastmen) and then march with the most grandest of armies to the northern polar gates and attempt to close them. 1 in a million chance that it could even happen 1 in a trillion chance of it actually happening (i don't see the undead wanting to close off all magic). But it is still what i would try to do as the world is that desperate to end its war with Chaos or at least go out with a glorious final stand!

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:57 am 
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Logistics and so on, didn't stop Karl Franz from sending a huge, well supplied, expedition force to Lustria fairly recently, if I remember my fluff right. Lustria is far and just as challenging an environment to survive in. They never returned, but he still did it. Recently Eltarion led an expedition force to Naggaroth. As his product description says,

He is the only High Elf commander to launch a successful attack on the city of Naggarond itself, an action that earned him the lasting enmity of the Witch King.


So really, if they just combined the two expeditions, add Tyrion and Teclis, and whatever other spellcasters they can spare, then I reckon there's a good chance of winning.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:14 am 
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You say Eltharion recently lead that expedition, but that was a long time ago, close to the start of Finubar's reign. Why didn't T&T tag along then? Wait, too busy. Story wise GW isn't going to be killing off the Druchii any time soon, and with out them who will be our nemesis? No none elf could compete with us, we're just too awesome.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:05 am 
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The Deamons i see as our nemesis more than the Dark Elves. They are just a product of a tactic by the Deamons to divide and conquer.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:06 pm 
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The problem is your making the mistake of thinking that GW fluff is remotely sensible or balanced.

Why doesn't Teclis cast a spell to do xyz? Because he can't, the vortex stops that much magical energy

Why doesn't Tyrion lead a campaign to kill the Dark Elves? Because no one would follow him.

FWIW I think, looking at subtle clues in the books, that the High Elves (and dwarves fwiw) aren't dying, quite the opposite in fact. Slowly but surely (thanks to Tyrion and Teclis) they are rebuilding. Ulthuan is safer than it has been in generations as have the realms of the wider world

Better to build stregnth and regroup than to squander the last of your stregnth in a doomed chance for glory.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:30 pm 
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Code13 wrote:
Better to build stregnth and regroup than to squander the last of your stregnth in a doomed chance for glory.

*cough* Crucible *cough*.

In the battle for Finuval Plain (is that the name?) Teclis does beat Malekith but he uses all his strength just to beat 1 other character. I don't think even the mightiest living mage can win alone.

The strongest human is still a human and wont be a match for a Grizzly Bear or a Silver Back Gorilla.

I am sure alot would follow Tyrion but i think the Elf himself doesn't want to attack. His called 'Tyrion the Defender of Ulthuan' for a reason.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:41 pm 
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Just jumped over from the other thread where someone mentioned Eltherion being blind. Is he? I know he was. But now he rides around on a griffon again. So was that story part of the great fluff roll back, there was nothing about it in the 7th ed army book. Or, is it still part of the fluff and they just wanted to bring back a very old model?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:07 am 
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Back in 6th edition, there is the story of Eltharion being defeated at Anlec and tortured. He gets sent back to ulthuan as a message. He then goes to the white tower and trains. They got rid of this in the seventh book to make his rules more uniform.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:35 am 
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Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
Back in 6th edition, there is the story of Eltharion being defeated at Anlec and tortured. He gets sent back to ulthuan as a message. He then goes to the white tower and trains. They got rid of this in the seventh book to make his rules more uniform.


I realize all that. My question is did it ever happen now? The Storm of Chaos clearly hasn't, what about Eltharion getting his eyes poked out? Never really understood that story anyway, why would Eltharion go on that trip? He's more into gobblins anyway, and rides a griffon. All of a sudden leads a bunch of swordmasters and hangs out with shadow warriors? It's like gav thorpe (I'm pretty sure I remember him as the one who wrote it) didn't realize there might be other elves out there to lead an attack.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:40 am 
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Everyone hates druchii, and because of his fame he was probably chosen to lead the defense that time, and no, going by the current ab, it never happened.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:20 am 
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That was writen in 6th ed DE AB but I believe SPace McQuirick(sp) was responsible for it. It wasn't particulary bad background and introduced the feel of a new DE campaign on Ulthuan, with two follow up strories in WD. What happened to that piece of background as with Strom of Chaos is GW realised they were turning bacground into a stroy that people want to have follow ups rather than bacground being just setting so some things were rolled back. So now rather than having singular event in the present and story driven my an individual we get a setting where the latest Druchii - Asur war had begun in 2423 and has continued to the present day with both trying to oust the other from the Shadowlands.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:57 am 
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From a realpolitik viewpoint, as much as the Dark Elves are a pain for the High Elves, they may actually be more threatening to Chaos and humans, keeping both in check. Without Malekith's paranoia, it's possible that that Ulthuan would be forced to expend more resources in patrolling the Chaos Wastes while watching as humans slowly expand at their expense.

Like making the world safe for capitalism, and finding out that this just gives opportunities for financial institutions to exploit their positions to the point of economic collapse.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:52 pm 
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Finubar isn't prepared to commit his people to a war that may or may not destroy them he needs the support of the other races. But the dwarves won't help not only do they not like elves but they are bieng threatened by the orks, Karl Franz faces the same situation only with chaos warriors the Brettonians aren't powerful enough I suppose the Lizardmen ight help but how will you convince to them?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:57 pm 
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The one thing that the Asur have over the other races is communication. With our extensive trading all over the world we have contacts everywhere ^_^

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Elessehta of Yvresse wrote:
The one thing that the Asur have over the other races is communication. With our extensive trading all over the world we have contacts everywhere ^_^


Not to mention that both we and DE have video phones (through magical mirors) and message delivery systems similar to magical holograms.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:45 pm 
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It may be because most of the elves (including the pheonix king) still remember the last war with the DE. They are not keen to voluntarily get into another war. Allthought the shadow warriors would love the chance ;)

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Personally I would imagine that the Twin superheroes instills hope for the future. So why would you take the risk to kill off your own kind in exchange for your nemesis and give up your own future. If that is the case then haven't you lost what you were fighting for. It's like this you go two war for a cause that might rid the world of one giant pain and exchange you get the death of your people and soon enough you as well. It sounds like a terrible salespitch to me.


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