Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:05 am 
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They're not the ones uniting.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:26 am 
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Are you actually serious, Arratak? :?

Watch the swearing and personal attacks mate - that's not cool, even if you are offended. I get offended with someone or other on here everyday, but its no excuse.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:33 am 
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Actually, it was very good to see cultivated discussion on a theme this difficult.
Arratak, could you please remove what you wrote, or reword it so it is not offending to anyone? You may not like it and you are entitled to an opinion (and to voice that opinion), but you should respect others as well. Thank you!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Musashi wrote:
They're not the ones uniting.

I see what you did there, well played Sir.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Musashi wrote:
Romans may have committed homosexuality, but it was taboo and considered a decadent eastern practice. Julius Caesar was accused of being every woman's husband, and every husband's wife, as a slur.


The most ancient offense you can do to a man is precisely this.. wondering about his manhood. This is something as ancient as the human being. Calling famous people homosexual to ruin his reputation it is something that still happens today (for example in Spain there has always been the urban myth that Pep Guardiola, manager of barcelona football club, is homosexual).

The fact homosexuality wasnt persecuted or forbidden in certain ancient cultures doesnt equal to say everybody had to be homosexual or bisexual. In fact in Greece calling someone homosexual was still an offense in many cases (for example if you were a king and were expected to have heirs).

I suppose it would be something similar to nowadays, with lower cultural individuals being less tolerant with homosexuality and people with higher culture like those in cities being more open minded about it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:29 pm 
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It is very dependent of cultural context, station of said men (or women, for that sake - in middle-age courts women were practically secluded and the Church was not blind to "what might happen there"). The tolerance was never for all circumstance, but for some roles or enviroments. This, I think, can be supposed for elven society as well (if they are inclined to this kind of behaviour at all - but it is implied that at least the cultists and DE are - so, do they accept it, or find it a sign of evil?).
Also, our society is quite paranoic about sexuality, many kind of behaviour we find strange would be perfectly okay in other (or older) cultures (et vice versa :lol:).

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:23 am 
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In terms of the sexuality of the high elves, let me make my case clearly.
I consider them to be very greek in their politics, with relatively few influences from other cultures.
politically the high elves are ruled by the Phoenix King when viewed from the outside. However, I think that his "real" power was far weaker.
Each region of Ulthuan might be called a nation in and of itself, ruled by their respective rulers. (not only does this explain the cultural differences between the various regions, but it also explains the abundance of princes running around). They went to and fro about their various concerns, each keeping much to themselves before the rise of Aenarion, and mildly drifting apart now that a certain stability has been reached with Finubar at the helm.
When you look at it from this perspective, it makes sense that each nation has different specialities, in which they have grown great.
In terms of cultural acceptance of paraphilia (sexual deviations) I would like to make a nation-by-nation assesment of them, starting with Lothern.

Eataine, being the greatest port-state of Ulthuan, followed only closely by Cothique, it is subject to many outside influences and would care greatly for their appearance. Dock-workers and common traders are not particularly interesting but the courts are a magnificent display of power.
In these courts, men and sometimes women vie ferociously for the favour of the Phoenix King, and each would have their own quarters.
Undoubtedly they would also have attendants and some of the less savoury princes or representatives would likely have concubines and a wife. These concubines would be kept hidden amongst the staff, and would rarely be talked about as it would be considered "unfaithful" to openly admit this.

going further north, we come to Caledor, land of the arrogant dragon-princes. These princes would likely care little for what others percieved of them and might smugly pleasure themselves any way they wished. One can only imagine that the arrogance of not lowering their banner for the Phoenix King, would trickle down into their very society, with the poor being downtrotten and nearly mistreated while the rich indulge in various acts of pleasure all year round. Their courts would be much like the courts of Beowulf, once he defeated Grendel.
The populace of the land would seek favour with each other too, by wedding out or offering their daughters to the princes and smalltime landlords.

Then we arive at Tiranoc. A nation falled from power. With the destruction in the sundering they were dealt a grievous blow and their political, financial and economic power destroyed. They would be poor, almost peasantly to the eye of other princes. This has caused a certain faithfulness that is rarely seen amongst the elves. Each house keeps to themselves and they are more concerned with rebuilding their power than earning any favours with each other.

Then we come to Nagarythe. A land utterly devoid of moral or political guidance, and thrown in extreme turmoil. The scars of the dark-elves are still visible there and so too in their population.
Many have taken to forming bands of bandits and are lurking the streets for anyone who might be considered a spy. This distrust would undoubtedly drip down into their relations too. I can imagine that the Nagarythe people are slow to earn the trust of, but once earned they would be an invaluable ally despite their brutish ways.
They would remain extremely faithful to their spouses, and any sign of unfaithfulness would be considered a betrayal and a disgrace, having had the history of the cults of pleasure and morathi right in on their land.

if you travel on, you enter Chrace. As polar opposites of their neighbors the Chracian hunters are strong and stury. While they bore the brunt of much of the early druchii attacks, they remained reclusive and kept to their own forming prides in their courts. A single great hunter would rule over his pride of weaker and lower hunters and wives, emulating their revered White Lions. They are a very careful nation, that is quick to anger, but loyal as a friend. This would also be reflected in their sexual lives, as any unfaithfulness would be considered a challenge to the alpha and they would battle to find out who is stronger.
The influence of the phoenix king would be hardly known out here, and so too the standards of Eataine.

Enter Cothique. Like Chrace their land is beset by conflict with the Dark Elves, but the Cothicians are hardly folk. Their ships are filled with men riding the waves of the sea with a smile on their face as rain batters down on them. Like no other they know the perils of the sea, and they consider it a worthy death to be buried at sea.
All things considered, homosexuality would not be uncommon in this place, as often for long periods of time, the men would be separated from their wives on ships, and would be gone for months many even for years or decades. They would come to trust and love each other as men, and this separation, while innitially driven by loneliness and lust, would turn into a culturally acceptable behavior after millenia of understanding.
Their military structure too would be similar, being drafted into a regiment would mean separation from their wives, as they are to reside in the baracks, while their wives and children would tend to the land and home. It would not be uncommon to find yourself in a regiment with your cousin to your left, and your father to your right and a brother to your back.

While bordering Eataine again, Yvresse is devided on it's influence of the Phoenix Court. To the north, their lands would be greatly similar to Cothique, and inter-sexual and inter-mariage sexual relationships would be more common, while to the south it would display the nearly prudish ways of the Phoenix Court, seeking favour with their high king.

Across the annulii mountains, as seen from Yvresse lies Saphery, and land steeped in magical knowledge and where scholars and mages are most prolific. They are known for their craft in the magical arts and is the home of the famous Tower of Hoeth.
The Phoenix King's unfluence would be great here, and the mages would be as carefull about their sexual deviance as their western neighbors, keeping a good front and practicing care with their relationships.

Avelorn, the great forest and home of the Everqueen. The maiden guard patroll the roads and keep a watchful eye, while the men do a large portion of the "common" works compared to the other nations. They would be an almost equalised nation, where men and women are free to choose with whom and what they do it, taking the example of the Everqueen and her political relations with the Phoenix King and her personal champion Tyrion.

Ellyrion, home of the famed ellyrian reavers, and the greatest horsemen around. One can only wonder if their would spend the same amount of time with their wives as they do with their horses. I think the Ellyrians would be openly loyal to their wives, and some might have a sexual relationship even with their horses. While this is far from the norm, it is probably more accepted here than in any of the other nations, save perhaps Tiranoc.

With that, I conclude my speculations on the sexual nature of each nation and the influences they have on each other. Feel free to disagree, but I hope this explains some of the stances I take when writing my stories.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Well played Sir
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Yvresse divided, and wanting to be like Cothique or Eataine?
Crazy, Yvresse is a very wealthy kingdom, and it's navy is great.
After Tor Anroc sank beneath the seas, and before Lothern opened it's port to other races, Tor Yvresse was a major player in the sea trade.
It's still a big player, but some of the trading is not so legal ^_^
It's also a very noble kingdom, with deep history, two of the Phoenix Kings were Yvressii.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:10 pm 
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I know, but I didn't say they wanted to be like Cothique or Eataine. But culturally they would be a bridging nation between Cothique and Eataine, similar to how Cothique is a bridging nation in their acceptance between Yvresse and Chrace. There would be a bit of a gradient between northern and southern Yvresse in terms of the acceptance of homo/bi-sexuality, as well as the openness of it. This is a result of the conducts and communication between the neighboring nations, and which are closest.
Yvresse has a very deep history and they might be a bigger player on the seafaring-map, but that would be expected next to Cothique on their northern border, and Eataine on their western border, they can't get left behind, as well as as mayor source of income it is also a great strategic advantage to them to be nestled in between two other sea-faring nations.
I did not delve deep into Yvresse's history since I have not looked into it as extensively as I have in the Ellyrian, Nagarythe, Cothician and Chracian nations, so I did not make any large claims concerning their history and political influence.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Well played Sir
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I already gave my arguments at the start of the thread, it's good to see more though.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:46 am 
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I always saw elves as being very accepting of sexuality. And spirituality would also pay a part in their relationships. I personally don't think that high elves would be in for one night hookups, it seems to "human" of them. Instead they would look for emotional and spiritual connections, and if that happened to be with a partner of the same sex so be it.

I also think they would have less problem with polyandry. Multiple partners in a committed and exclusive relationship. Many cultures have taken this tract in the real world, equally split between multiple husband/wives. This part is only conjecture, but one woman who can have multiple husbands has a better chance of conception, and protection. Especially since all elves are required to serve in the military, less war widows.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:39 pm 
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Rise, o thread of yore,
Rise, and live once more.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:40 pm 
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Thread necromancy hardly applies on this part of forum really. You may or may not like it, but as long as the posts follow forum rules, there is no need to discourage people to post. For the record, I also believe elves are overly worried about this. Unless it is somehow linked exclusively to the cults of Excess and whatnot.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:43 pm 
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I just joked. No intention to discourage anything. :D


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:54 pm 
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Now that is good to hear. :D I know this topic can upset some people, but it is good to remind ourselves that our traditional concepts are only one of many possibilities nature employs. So as long as we don't go emulating another kind(s) of sites here and posts are contributing to the (admittedly slow) discussion, I am not going to moderate it. :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Now on a slight tangent, and please forgive me but it is related. Elven sexuality would play little part in family dynastics. Elves seem to trace the importance of linage thrrough the female side, at least at the highest level. The Everqueen is inherited, while the Pheonix King is selected.

Matrelinial societies are traditionaly more open to same sex relationships.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:52 am 
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It's a difficult one to say anything for sure about. I can imagine that in a long lived society people at some point look for something new. If you live for 500+ years, then there is a serious chance you'll want a new partner at some point. 500 years is a very, very long time. To put it in perspective, 500 years ago Europeans had only just rediscovered the America's... An awful lot happens in 500 years.

On the other hand, I think that because of the HE/DE split, HE society in general is very careful with everything that looks even a bit excessive. They would be careful not to be labelled a DE / traitor. So, I think they'll be very closed about their sexual relations.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:17 pm 
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I had years to stew to stew over this. and have read some really interesting comics on the subject.

I think you have the whole range, from prosaic to the strange.
The High Elven imagination is rich without ceiling or floor.
Where the limit is, you'll discover when Swordmasters knock on your door.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Wow, long time no see Musashi!

Musashi wrote:
Where the limit is, you'll discover when Swordmasters knock on your door.

No-one expects the Swordmasters!

:)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:01 am 
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I don't think the asur would approve homosexuality, or sanction it.

We must first consider that the elves were exclusively ruled for millenia before the coming of chaos by the line of the Everqueens as Isha's chosen. Isha is the godess of nature, harvest and fertility, seen as the mother too by the elves. This is the typical maternal figure associated to grain harvest and fertility so common in innumerable civilizations and religions.

This fertility applies to both the field and the female body so that it can give fruit. The love Isha represents is the maternal love to her children, encouraging again reproduction and the care of the offspring. Consider too that Isha is the goddess of nature and the protector the natural order, so the production of fruit and offspring follows that natural order. Relationships that don't produce 'fruit' would go against said order since they are considered barren.

Consider now that before the coming of chaos the cadai were worshipped, while the cytharai were appeased. (And to the asur this is still the norm). The cytharai represent to the elves the destructive and self-destructive aspect of their mindframe through obsession. They are the uncomfortable realities of life that should be contained yet nonetheless are a part of life and therefore must be respected for that (Khaine - murder, blood and violence. Eldrazor - battle for honor obsessed, the ends justify the means. Anath Raema - thrill of the hunt, vengeance and jealousy, etc... note that the druchii are druchii precisely because they threw up that whole appeasement amd containment thing and went full throttle worshipping it).

Atharti, godess of desire and pleasure, is the goddess that most would associate with homosexuality, not because she is the godess for that explicitly, she isn't, but since homosexuality does not bear fruit by itself many elves would see it is a basic pursuit of pleasure that contravenes the pursuit of the higher, heavenly ideals the elves must imitate in the cadai, even if the two same sex lovers claim to feel sincere love for one another.

Would homosexuality be actively repressed in the time of the sole rulership of the everqueens? we can't now for certain, since the elves had it much easier in those times and also since the everqueen seems to have always had a more spiritual, soft rule, but I deduce this from her actual position in the lore, perhaps before the phoenix kings she had a more active rule.

And then chaos came.

When one of the four gods is the God of excess and pleasure for pleasure's sake... yeah...

Now consider the cults of excess that appeared in Bel-Shaanar's rule (or cults of pleasure before the retcon), atharti played a major role in those cults, which was only the prelude for slaaneshi rituals. They tore apart the fabric and stability of elven society and ended up producing a civil war and a sundering that still remains to this day.

Anything that may encourage the aparition of those cults would be actively pursued by the phoenix throne, protector of the twin thrones of Ulthuan, and even if homosexuality is not by itself an indication of atharti or slaanesh worship, it is something that could surely be present in atharti or slaanesh worship, just as orgies would be.

Now consider that Malekith has been trying to promote these cults for millenia in Ulthuan, trying to create as much subversion as possible in the continent island. And that the agents of the Phoenix king are ever vigilant stomping on these cults wherever they find them, do you think homosexuality would be allowed, or indulged, when it may be evidence of clear subversion against the throne, just as an orgy would be? Or the sign of even chaos worship?

Take a look too at the clothes the high elves use to wear. Long robes and dresses that cover the skin from shoulders to toes. Elves love to adorn themselves and their surroundings, they love to show off and produce works of beauty. Yet their clothes, while elaborate, don't show skin or encourage sensuality, why do you think that is? Because anything that entices lust and desire blatantly is frowned upon by their society at large. Especially when your crazy lust and pleasure obsessed cousins on the other end of the ocean do. Because by association dressing like that is like making a wink to the dark elves, or atharti, or slaanesh. Orgies, bestiality, and yes even poligamy or homosexuality would be banned and a huge scandal for any noble, it could end them in the intrigue happy courts of Ulthuan. Not to mention that with the population issues the asur have homosexuality would also sabotage on this end their already low birth numbers.

As for the dark elves? It's quite possible there is homosexuality for the same reasons i don't think it would be sanction or allowed on Ulthuan. However Malekith's tyrannical eddicts would probably discourage it to have as many births as possible to keep building his army.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:10 pm 
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I think this topic has been discussed enough for now. I want to thank everyone for their input. But there's a lot of potential for offending people in this discussion.

So, topic locked

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