Ulthuan

I'm reading the three elven army books and they didn't said nothing about sexual orientation (of course I know that books are about war not love) I mean: Which point of view have the three races of elves (Asur, Asrai and Drucchi) on male-male and female-female relationships??

Personally I think the elves are the most ancient race in the world so they are most wise and open minded, I think they are bisexual because bisexuality can be useful in many aspects including war, when your mate is in danger you will fight fiercely just to help him/her (the ancient greeks did that).

I want to know what you think about this.

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You Asur, maybe you have your knowledge written on old scrolls in your cold stone tower of Hoeth but my knowledge is on the trees, the earth and the rain.

The greeks may have done that but the roman legions actually outlawed it to prevent jealousy from affecting unit cohesion. It was a very serious military infraction in the legions. Not the choice of sexual orientation, but inter-legion relationships. I imagine high elves would follow that line of logic in pursuit of practical warfare, especially because their fighting style relies heavily on cohesion.

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True to the End.
Prince Oberon, Hand of Tor Yvresse, Lord Admiral, Lord of Tor Lir

This is kind of a loaded question - some people will say one thing, another will say another, and depending on their own views on the subject of sexuality, it could potentially get quite vehement. Games Workshop wisely chooses not to mention this sort of thing in their background

I will say that I posted pictures of my army on this forum and several others, and because I chose to paint my elves with makeup, I got a few irritating private messages. I was thinking stylized war paint when I painted them, and thoughts of how it might reflect on their sexuality never even entered into it. Nevertheless, my decision to do so infringed on some people's deeply held beliefs and may have even disturbed them. Fortunately, at least in person, I'm intimidating enough that I don't have to defend my army as often as I do online - its why I no longer post pictures of my work.

Consequently I don't talk about this kind of thing myself. It only serves to strengthen my already considerable misanthropy. I try not to pry into the inner workings of others, because it interferes with my ability to work or communicate with them. War, politics, religion and sexuality are all on my list of things not to talk about with most people.

Elves are a pretty race, I'd be gay for a pretty elf prince. Knowing that elves don't have a lot of children, there are probably long ceremonies and courtships that go on and casual sex probably isn't common. Note that I use probably a lot, this is because we know next to nothing...

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Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.

Elves don't have the same hang ups as humans, religiously dictated or otherwise. Though it's not mentioned, your soul mate may turn out to change gender in the next round of reincarnations. Then you have arcane ways to change gender.

After a couple of centuries of the missionary position, you too may be inclined to be more adventurous.

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Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander
Crowbot_Jenny
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The_Castle_Series_4_Episode_5

But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

Well played Sir, how did I forget how magic might affect things, rookie mistake.

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Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.

Given the problems with pleasure cults I think they are probay fairly open and easy going regarding sexual orientation

Hell they even named named an entire province after girl on girl loving...(Saphery/sapphic)

I expect they are much like humans - with varying preferences.

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"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor

I think Elithmar has hit the nail on the head.

Bear in mind that with the pleasure cults of the Asur, and followers of Slaanesh among the Dark Elves, they would be more inclined to try new experiences. Slaaneshi cultists in particular would used sexual attraction as a weapon and/or means to distract their enemy.

There is nothing solid written about the Asur and bisexuality or homosexuality although we have this from the High Elves rule book:

Morvael the Impetuous

The next Phoenix King, Morvael first seemed to be no wise choice for a king, as he was not well versed in either state or warfare. He ordered an attack on Naggaroth, but the Druchii easily massacred the Asur forces sent there. Word of Morvael's failure spread panic through Ulthuan and Malekith used this opportunity to once again launch an invasion on Ulthuan. But Morvael had learned of his mistakes and he appointed Mentheus of Caledor as field commander and introduced the levy system that required every Asur to spend a part of the year as a soldier. Mentheus eventually won the war, but at a very high cost of High Elven lives. Morvael felt responsible for the great numbers of Asur slain, and he committed suicide by walking into the Flame of Asuryan when Mentheus died in retaking Anlec.

It has been suggested that Morvael loved Mentheus and took his own life upon learning of his death. This is not confirmed by GW though, and may well be nonsense.

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"Show the Druchii no mercy, for they would offer you none!"

Its a bit of a chicken and egg situation, did the pleasure cults gain a foothold because the Asur arent so restricted in their lives as the modern west.

I often look at the High Elves to be a curious blend of influences including the ancient greek city states and all that entails.


its all a moot point as GW will never confirm one way or the other, but it has the potential to be uncover some of the psyche of the Asur (and since I think they are very influenced by Moorcock's Melnibonians so I think they are of the "anything goes" outlook)

That is a very interesting point. I imagine there would be a desire among some to dabble in certain behaviours to banish the ennui of a long lifespan. And by doing so, would grant the cults further strength. Slaanesh after all, is described as the youngest of the Chaos gods, and many blame the High Elves for his/her/its(!) rise to power.

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"Show the Druchii no mercy, for they would offer you none!"

Looking at elf books in general the Malus darkblade series have a fair bit of sex in them (never particularly graphic but present never the less) and may be the best available source. Granted the series is not considered cannon nor even close to such by many but I have always taken the view that anything semi official is more official than nothing at all.

Looking at those books there is prostitution and incest (well what can you expect from dark elves) but outside of the Slaaneshi cults no homosexuality as far as I can recall (my memory may well be faulty on this and I have not read past Lord of Ruin so I could easily be mistaken). This may say more about the writers than about the subjects but never the less in a race slowly dwindling in number sex without the possibility of conception may have become something of a social taboo. On the other hand part of the reason for child numbers being so low could be due to elves not concentrating their efforts in a fertile direction.

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Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

More of a social taboo than joining an evil, illegal pleasure cult?

I all honesty I dont think its remotely mentioned because its still quite taboo in our society, and no way do GW want some over zealous church group protesting they are promoting homosexuality.

Personally being a mature adult of 37 I dont give a monkeys, and in my world its a fully functioning society and all that entails (especially one with different mores and taboos than us) but to a company with a target audience in the early teens I can see how they dont want to rock the boat, so to speak.

Thats why its difficult to answer this question using GW source materiel.

Code13 has the right of it I think - including homosexuality is far too challenging, and they don't want to rock the boat.

This is the same reason they dropped Fimir originally - they were a race that only procreated through rape, as I understand it (slightly before my time). Even now that they've begun mentioning them again in Storm of Magic, they're far more PC than they were at the time.

Its also the reason you don't hear so much about High Elves wearing makeup (even the men), as well as jewelry, lazy, hedonistic, and not being able to grow a beard, even though its there in the first edition of WHFRP - its the reason why they don't have High Elves and Sea Elves anymore, and they've been lumped together. Those things are still around, and implied, but its much more subtle - like calling elves 'fey' in every other description.

Well elves continue to join evil illegal pleasure cults and in much the same way some could practice homosexuality outside of them (I think it can be taken as read that such things would take place within pleasure worship considering the more extreme activities which are alluded to). Of course we can never get a full view of this kind of thing and there is no way GW would ever speak about it at length in an official capacity (nor any good reason why they should) but it seems foolish not to take hints from the source material available in a debate.

_________________
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

I dont, because the social mores of the writer are entwined in the hints, added to that they wont even be consciously thinking about it and if they are itll be to not make any overly controversial statement

Considering their low population and birth-rate wouldn't same-sex relationships be banned in High Elf culture?

Just a thought.

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Not at all

In fact if you want to pursue that idea then the elves wouldn't have marriage, but encourage their women to take as many lovers as possible to increase the chances of pregnancy.


I'd also point out that in many cultures other than the judeo-Christian-Islamic sects homosexuality is accepted and a part of life. In ancient Greece it was positively encouraged, in ancient Rome it was widespread and accepted, in medieval Japan Geisha were originally men.

The only reason it's ever frowned on is down to religious doctrines, and they are generally limited to the three mentioned above that all share the same religious texts.

I'm going to have to echo ~Milliardo~'s magic comment, if it was found that your soul mate was of the same sex, High Elves High Magic has endless possibilities, a simple magic sex change and boom, you're having babies(very slowly, and not many).

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Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.

Going from the fact that a lot of HE culture / warfare seems to be modelled on greek and roman armies, I'll side with Code13 here. In these cultures homosexuality was widely accepted and in some cases even encouraged in the military. There isn't much reason to asume that HE will be any different.

There seem to be 2 reasons why homosexuality is frowned upon.
1. religion
2. lack of reproduction (which in part is the basis of reason 1)

both are not realy an issue for HE. With a pantheon of gods, there is always at least one god that does what you want. And if you accept that part of the pantheon of HE gods is based on their greek counterparts then finding homosexual examples is no problem. I seem to remember a few greek myths about Zeus falling for some very handsome young greek guy and obducting him etc.

Lack of reproduction is not realy an issue in the sense that HE don't reproduce that much anyway. If you are certain that each opposite sex mariage is going to produce children then it makes sense to frown uppon every mariage that can't. However, not getting (a lot of) children seems to be the norm for HE for most of their live, so why make a big deal out of it in a few specific cases.

Rod

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Isn't the whole greeks were okay with gays thing still debatable? Didn't Arisotle hate them? And I remember Xenophon saying the spartans weren't all that fond of them.

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Not all city states approved, but none of them banned it, moreover in may - especially Athens - it was very widespread, thats beyond doubt.

Heck, Gymnasiums were simply places where guys could hang out naked together.

I think everyone is comparing them too much with the human race of reality. They are a fictional race set in a fictional time in a fictional world.

Lets take the arguement that as they live long lives they may get bored and experiment. Your thinking in a human mindset that they would get bored (when people see i collect elves they joke about them being distracted with flowers etc etc) who is to say they get bored? The Citizen Levy means all train for the military (at least the males if models are anything to go by). They also have to have jobs like shopkeepers, blacksmith, builders etc etc etc. So they are plenty busy all their lives so the whole getting bored is wrong i think.

That and we can't seem to go through a single lifespan without some huge conflict or near catastrophic event happening where we die alot. Plus the low birthcount. How have they stayed populated enough to field all male spearelves for 9pts each? Even the Asrai need females to make it to 12pts minimum. So my guess is that the Phoenix King has put put through a law shall we call it to forbid it? Linking it to the cults of pleasure is an easy way for him to pass it through without arguements.

The fact GW doesn't get into this is because they don't need the protests and even lawsuits that could follow. Also the flowers thing i said earlier? Say they said some elves were gay then people can take the pi** about us even more!

My two pence.

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War. War never changes
dum spiro, spero...
"Humans are strange creatures, in a world of such fascination and wonder they have managed to invent boredom"

Homosexuality was definitely widespread in the Greek world and very accepted, particularly in the military - see Sacred Band of Thebes for an example of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

Although I have little hard evidence to cite off the top of my head, and its controversial, this is one of my major beliefs for why homosexuality is frowned upon in modern western religion - young men, banded together in pair-bondings were a source of constant irritation to the ruling classes and would frequently overthrow governments they believed to be corrupt.

In Greece, there was a ritualized form of 'abduction' where an older male and his friends would take a young boy from his house (with his fathers permission), and the boy would become a sort adored lover - some authors and historians say that this was platonic and unconsummated love, some say otherwise, and again, it seems to vary depending on the beliefs of the one writing it. The Romans, whose ideas on love were more about domination and control, found this kind of love abhorrent because they did not wish to see their heirs emasculated in any way, and slowly began to push it aside - nevertheless, it survives even to this current day in Greek Fraternities in a less sexual form called 'hazing' - something a lot of alcoholic jocks and people who call each other "brah'" would no doubt be horrified to learn. Ideas on polygamy were also a lot more relaxed during the Greek times as well, but our modern beliefs on monogamy were encouraged by Romans as well - it ties in with the need for more Rome-born citizen-soldiers the military demanded.

Rome continues to influence our beliefs even today, though none of us really realize it.

Similarly, as an addition to Code13's mentioning of Geisha, in many stories male samurai would have a young boy following them around as an apprentice/page, and also lover - Miyamoto Musashi had one in the stories about him, for example. Since Japan's introduction to the global community this has been pushed aside and downplayed, sometimes with a bit of shame, but the entire theater culture and military system was rife with it, as it encouraged loyalty to ones lord and comrades in the former, and narcissism and glorifying the male form in the latter.

This is all why we (as a collective whole) in the west are so uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality in the military - it actually has a very long tradition in many cultures, was widely accepted, and very useful to military discipline, honor and loyalty, something modern society has trouble accepting in any way, shape or form. We live in the shadow of former religious rule, and that engendered widespread homophobia in society.

This could be seen either way. Do the elves have a declining population BECAUSE OF homosexuality, or do they NOT have homosexuality BECAUSE OF the declining population? Could be seen either way. We don't know. The second option is more in line with what ~Milliardo~ was saying about the Romans.

_________________
"I say the Eatainii were cheating - again." -Aicanor
"Eatainian jerks…" -Headshot
"It was a little ungentlemanly." -Aicanor (on the Eatainii)
"What is it with Eataini being blamed for everything?" -Aicanor

Romans may have committed homosexuality, but it was taboo and considered a decadent eastern practice. Julius Caesar was accused of being every woman's husband, and every husband's wife, as a slur.

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Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander
Crowbot_Jenny
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But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

Caesar's alleged homosexuality was not why that was an insult; the insult was in making him the 'passive' partner. Homosexuality was not so very taboo in Rome, just read a handful of poems by Catullus for example. The most common statue surviving from antiquity is of the Emperor Hadrian's male lover and this is not condemned in any surviving contempory writing other than in its inappropriate scale.

This does however drift from the point of the thread rather, elves appreciate beauty in all its forms which makes me suspect that they are more likely to be 'diverse' in their affections than anything else but that is to assume a connection with appreciation and lust in the elven mind which we not know is there, but probably is since this is a human construct.

_________________
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

When it comes to comparing the High Elves with historical societies, I've personally always considered them most comparable to the Byzantines (they have their politics, and the White Lions are basically an expy of the Varangian Guard except that instead of being outright foreigners, they just come from a less civilised part of the same kingdom). Now, the Byzantine Empire was remnant of the Roman thats core territories were effectively Greek, so the Greek and Roman comparisons come in from there... and the High Elves also have units (read: chariots) that were obsolete well before the fall of the Roman Empire.

That said, you could easily see High Elf history as a rough progression from Classical Greece to Rome to Byzantium. This progression might prove to be analagous to a progression of Asur views on sexuality - accepted before the Sundering, but between the pleasure cults and the decline in population, the expectation has grown that sex should at least have the chance of procreation. On the other hand, though, this could come in the form of encouragement rather than legislation - if a particular elf is bi they're encouraged to focus their attentions on the opposite sex, but if they're really not interested than others will understand.

Mind you, another thing that comes to mind is that in both Fantasy and 40K, the low birth rate seems to be something that's confined to the most civilised group of elves/eldar - the dark elves, for instance, seem to have no problem rebuilding their numbers while the high elves continue to decline. It's mentioned in 40K that both branches of eldar are missing something that was fundamental to the ancient eldar - the Craftworld Eldar as a whole lack the warrior spirit as incompatible with their regulated social structure except when carefully controlled, while the Dark Eldar lack psykers. This isn't expressly stated in Fantasy, but there is mention in the Lizardmen book about how the elves are supposed to be a united species rather than sundered - and while the Asur are generally considered the closest, they've lost something they need which the Druchii have. Namely, that in rejecting the debasement of the Cults of Pleasure, as a society they've overcompensated and adopted a set of sexual mores that makes the stereotypical picture of Victorian English look wanton, and the reason that the population of Ulthuan is in decline is simply that it's populace isn't participating in activities that lead to population growth on a sufficiently regular basis.

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Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander
Crowbot_Jenny
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But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.

The Dark Crystal, I love this movie. Are you suggesting that High Elves are like Gelflings?

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Lord Elessehta Silverbough of Ar Yvrellion, Ruler of Athel Anarhain, Prince of the Yvressi.
Beastly member of The Mage Knight Guild.