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 Post subject: Tyrion and The everqueen
PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:16 am 
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It is said that Tyrion is consort to the Everqueen. Isn't she the consort of Finubar though? I only know of the term Consort used in the context of something similar to a spouse.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:33 am 
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The ritual marriage between the Phoenix King and the Everqueen only lasts for one year. After that, they're free to choose different consorts if they so choose.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:38 am 
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The Phoenix King and the Everqueen are co-rulers.

The Everqueen will bear the Phoenix King a daughter to produce her successor and ensure the continuation of her line. They are both free to have as many partners as they wish after this.

Tyrion is the current consort of the Everqueen. She could drop him at any time, reinstate him, or just have a quickie on the side. She could fill up her court with a dozen consorts, but tradition would be against that.

The concept is primarily borrowed from Celtic sources, but you'll find examples worldwide.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:40 am 
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Kinda like what emerpors in china and Japan did, but both male and female monarch allowed to take what would be considered concubines. Interesting


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:56 pm 
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The story continues if Tyrion is packing a “magic item”.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Say Tyrin and the everqueen are maried. Does the Phienix King have any ill feelings towards this?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:50 pm 
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None. In fact, I think he might be the first one to wish them well

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:05 pm 
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The Everqueen will bear the Phoenix King a daughter to produce her successor and ensure the continuation of her line. They are both free to have as many partners as they wish after this.

I thought the Phienix king chooses the everqueen.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:18 pm 
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No. The Phoenix King gets elected; the Everqueen is hereditary succession.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:40 pm 
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Consort of the Queen might make an interesting rare choice slot. It could be some type of warrior-mage hybrid that generates weird effects all around him...

Just thinking out loud.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:08 pm 
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kineticdragon wrote:
Consort of the Queen might make an interesting rare choice slot. It could be some type of warrior-mage hybrid that generates weird effects all around him...

Just thinking out loud.


I disagree here. The consort should only be present when the Everqueen is present, so maybe an option for the Everqueen (if we ever get rules for her...)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:10 pm 
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Consort? For which Everqueen?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:55 pm 
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I was under the impression that there's only one Everqueen, who at the moment happens to be Alarielle. And yes, Alarielle's consort is Tyrion, but GW has dropped the ball so badly in the past, that I think I'm becoming dull to their failure to abide by fluff.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:08 pm 
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Does Alarielle have any kids yet?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:16 pm 
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That's an interesting question.

Has Finubar had the opportunity to consummate the marriage? Is he sterile (would that disqualify him from Kingship)? Is he impotent (would that disqualify him from Kingship)?

Theoretically, Alarielle should have a daughter running around, since the Everqueen only consorts after fulfilling her duty.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:29 pm 
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I'd suppose that being sterile or impotent would disqualify him from kingship if it meant that he couldn't impregnate the Everqueen, but after that it wouldn't. So if the would-be Phoenix King would be impotent/sterile, he couldn't become king, but if he'd already done his part in ensuring that there's a new Everqueen, then I don't think anyone would care.

Think about it though. What kind of a rolemodel does the Everqueen set for her daughter? She gets pregnant, dumps her father, then fools around with whomever she likes. Sounds very modern to me :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:56 pm 
Considering that that is exactly what she wants her daughter to do at some point? Yes. She is being a good role model.

Though I wonder how many Everqueens there have been. Some Phoenix Kings might have the opportunity of skipping their duty if their predecessor had already produced the Everqueen's heir. Or maybe they double up in case of some unforeseen consequence. (cue G-man) Or maybe Phoenix Kings are like lions. They kill the previous Phoenix King's progeny and then make sure their own line endures.

Yeah.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:00 pm 
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I always knew the White Lions killed kittens.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:12 pm 
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But only huge, monstrous, chaotic, daemon kittens. Of doom

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:59 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
But only huge, monstrous, chaotic, daemon kittens. Of doom


Phoenix king progeny counts as such yes *nodnod*

On a more serious note on the phoenix kings fertility: That flame he ritually dances around in when picked as the king, might just make him a bit more virile?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:02 pm 
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What if this situation occurs?

Finubar + Alarielle= son

Alarielle + Tyrion= daughter

p.s. What happened to male heir heriditary rule?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:26 pm 
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Finubar and Alarielle will just have to keep at it, until they get it right.

The succession has never been endangered, or at least it's never been mentioned that it was. Since this is a ritualistic consummation, symbolizing the union between the Earth and the Sky, and possibly the compact between the Elves and their gods, it may be inferred that fertility and sex of the embryo may have been given a slight mystical nudge.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:02 pm 
Yes. I strongly suspect the influence of Isha to make sure that when they get it on they get it right and produce a daughter. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Everqueen was otherwise infertile, but that's open enough to dispute that I wouldn't object strongly if someone wanted to use a bastard child of the Everqueen for some purpose.

As for hereditary rule...it's surprisingly absent in Warhammer, at least at the highest levels. The High Elves out and out rejected it for Malekith, and learned their lesson with Caledor II. Malekith, even if he was capable of having children, I suspect wouldn't want some son hanging around hoping for daddy's power. The Sigmarite Emperor is an elected position as well, though I have no reason to doubt that all lower nobility is hereditary, as it is in Ulthuan though there's room for advancement in both systems if you want to shift the power of your house. Little hope for the commoners, though.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:18 am 
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Musashi wrote:
Finubar and Alarielle will just have to keep at it, until they get it right.

The succession has never been endangered, or at least it's never been mentioned that it was. Since this is a ritualistic consummation, symbolizing the union between the Earth and the Sky, and possibly the compact between the Elves and their gods, it may be inferred that fertility and sex of the embryo may have been given a slight mystical nudge.


I believe one of the Phoenix Kings is mentioned as having foregone the ritual marriage due to some crisis likely involving a Dark Elf invasion.

How this was resolved - whether he went through the marriage later, the Everqueen had a different heir, or the Everqueen at the time simply waited for the next Phoenix King - doesn't seem to be mentioned.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:47 pm 
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So if the everqueen died but the same pheonix king was still ruling would he have to marry his daughter for a year?

or...
Would she just wait for the next pheonix king?

and this also brings up the question that does a new ruler always constitute a new marriage? or does the king think "I have already did my purpose so its on to the next one"

also wouldn't this mean that caledor the second married his cousin or sister of some sort?

o-well I guess malekith bangs his mom so whatever. God elves are gross.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:49 pm 
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arcarai wrote:
So if the everqueen died but the same pheonix king was still ruling would he have to marry his daughter for a year?

or...
Would she just wait for the next pheonix king?

Unknown. He may marry his daughter, but not consummate it, and she'd just do what she has to do with the next Phoenix King to come along. Or it may indeed be necessary for her to produce an heir as soon as possible (as far as the Elves are concerned).

I do recall a theory that the Council of Princes was concerned that had Malekith been Phoenix King, he would be marrying his half-sister (which they were seemingly opposed to), but I'd have to check back to see if there are sources confirming it or not.

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and this also brings up the question that does a new ruler always constitute a new marriage? or does the king think "I have already did my purpose so its on to the next one"

I would speculate that in general, they always have a year-long marriage (if just for ritual and tradition's sake). However, if the Everqueen has already produced an heir, one would imagine that there is no need for a second heir, and thus no need for the marriage to be consummated.

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also wouldn't this mean that caledor the second married his cousin or sister of some sort?

Unless the Everqueen's daughter in that case had been brought around by Bel-Shanaar, yes.

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o-well I guess malekith bangs his mom so whatever. God elves are gross.

Only by our standards. To them, all these odd relationships may be perfectly fine. And cousin marriage (or, rather, "marrying within the bloodline") has been encouraged in the real world in the past anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:12 pm 
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We'd need a list and chronology of the Everqueens to be sure.

I doubt that the fact that the Everqueen was his half-sister was the primary reason that Malekith was rejected as the next Phoenix King, but it certainly was one that was publicly bandied about.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:59 pm 
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Also keep in mind that the Phoenix King is vetted by Asuryan. Since Asuryan's servants, the Phoenix Guard, are granted foreknowledge of their own deaths it's not too much of a stretch to assume that part of Asuryan's purview includes prophecy.

In other words, presumably a sterile or otherwise unfit prospective Phoenix King would not get Asuryan's approval to assume that role if it was necessary to produce another Everqueen or if circumstances (such as the aforementioned druchii invasion) truly endangered continuing Isha's chosen bloodline.

As a side note, I've always imagined that Malekith had most of his important (though sadly not his vital) parts burnt off when he murdered his way into the Temple of Asuryan and attempted to usurp the role of Phoenix King. That would certainly contribute to explaining his 4000+ year temper tantrum and the overly sexualized (overly compensating?) nature of the dark elven court. Symbolically losing his reproductive capability would also indicate Isha's disapproval of his actions as well since she one of her aspects represents fertility.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:56 pm 
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Im just going off of the reference in the 6th ed DE book (I miss this one because no one complained when i won) of Morathi being his unatural lover.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Eldacar wrote:
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also wouldn't this mean that caledor the second married his cousin or sister of some sort?

Unless the Everqueen's daughter in that case had been brought around by Bel-Shanaar, yes.


Caledor II got everything wrong.

I always believed that a new Phoenix King equated to a new Everqueen, the previous incumbent stepping down.


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