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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:07 am 
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Lhachmacar wrote:
Also keep in mind that the Phoenix King is vetted by Asuryan. Since Asuryan's servants, the Phoenix Guard, are granted foreknowledge of their own deaths it's not too much of a stretch to assume that part of Asuryan's purview includes prophecy.

In other words, presumably a sterile or otherwise unfit prospective Phoenix King would not get Asuryan's approval to assume that role if it was necessary to produce another Everqueen or if circumstances (such as the aforementioned druchii invasion) truly endangered continuing Isha's chosen bloodline.

While some of Asuryan's purview does indeed include prophecy, I think he maintains a fairly light touch - otherwise he might have had something to say about Caledor the Idiot (unless, of course, he considered the War of the Beard to be necessary for some reason - maybe even Asuryan subscribes to the belief that humanity in general and the Empire in particular - which indirectly owes its existence to the WotB - is the best weapon against Chaos). I suspect he reserves rejection for overtly unsuitable candidates such as those who attempted to gain the throne through assassination, but otherwise lets the Council of Princes make their own mistakes.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:00 pm 
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draxynnic wrote:
While some of Asuryan's purview does indeed include prophecy, I think he maintains a fairly light touch - otherwise he might have had something to say about Caledor the Idiot (unless, of course, he considered the War of the Beard to be necessary for some reason - maybe even Asuryan subscribes to the belief that humanity in general and the Empire in particular - which indirectly owes its existence to the WotB - is the best weapon against Chaos). I suspect he reserves rejection for overtly unsuitable candidates such as those who attempted to gain the throne through assassination, but otherwise lets the Council of Princes make their own mistakes.


That's an excellent point and I did not mean to imply that Asuryan would employ particularly heavy control or predestination to approve the Phoenix Kings. Your interpretation regarding allowing the Council of Princes to make their own errors unless they are *really* going to mess things up would be consistent with his aspect as a father figure to the Asur, which of course is a much more vital part of his makeup than his implied role as a prophet.

That alone, in fact, would explain Asuryan's approval of Caledor II. Despite the rather painful lessons provided by his example, the Council has been far more careful in selecting their King since his reign. It could also be argued that the considerable good works of Caledor II's successors' might not have come about without the folly of his reign, as such moderate subsequent Kings might not have been considered for the throne without the contrast provided by their predecessor's rash reign.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:28 pm 
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Lhachmacar wrote:
Your interpretation regarding allowing the Council of Princes to make their own errors unless they are *really* going to mess things up would be consistent with his aspect as a father figure to the Asur,
Maybe not even then. After all, the only Elf we know of in history who was rejected by the Flame was one who, instead of being selected by the Council of Princes, had just massacred them.

In that interpretation, he's not making any judgement at all, merely enforcing the will of the Council.

Come to think of it, it may not even be that direct - I seem to recall one source mentioning that after Aenarion, there are ritual preparations that are made to allow the Phoenix King to pass through the flame safely. Malekith's burning could simply have been because he was arrogant enough to think he can go through without those protections like his father did. The difference is that Asuryan actually chose to step in and help Aenarion, while the others who entered the flame without the proper protection were burned.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:08 pm 
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Finubar and Alarielle will just have to keep at it, until they get it right.

Chouldn't Finubar adopt Alarille and Tyrion's daughter into his line if he had no daughters?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:20 pm 
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ELFLADY01 wrote:
Finubar and Alarielle will just have to keep at it, until they get it right.

Chouldn't Finubar adopt Alarille and Tyrion's daughter into his line if he had no daughters?


It's not about Finubar's line, it's Alarielle's

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:31 am 
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draxynnic wrote:
Come to think of it, it may not even be that direct - I seem to recall one source mentioning that after Aenarion, there are ritual preparations that are made to allow the Phoenix King to pass through the flame safely.

The 5th edition HE Army Book. That same source also says that the flames rejected Malekith because he was corrupted and polluted. Elsewhere, it makes a note that Asuryan does touch the minds of the candidate for Phoenix King when they enter the Flame, too, so what I'd guess is that Asuryan basically seems to confirm the decision of the council. He technically does have veto power, but won't exercise it, because that isn't how he works. The Elves make their own choices and their own mistakes (case in point being Caledor II), and then either learn from those mistakes, or make them again. The former is generally the preferred option.

To summarise the above with regards to the function of the Flame:

1) With proper protection, you can survive the Flame without being burned.
2) If you are impure (e.g. Malekith), you're going to be torched, regardless of what protection you employ.
3) No mortal frame can endure the flame more than once (e.g. Morvael), regardless of what protection you employ.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:47 am 
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Eldacar wrote:
3) No mortal frame can endure the flame more than once (e.g. Morvael), regardless of what protection you employ.


Here's something I've always wondered. We know that Morvael is the son of Aenarion and that he sailed off, but where to and what else did he ever do?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:27 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
Here's something I've always wondered. We know that Morvael is the son of Aenarion and that he sailed off, but where to and what else did he ever do?


That would be Morelion. Morvael was the highly-strung High Loremaster of the White Tower during the reign of Aethis the Poet, and was responsible for hunting out the Cults of Pleasure during that time. Elected Phoenix King, he then restarted the war with the Druchii, but ended up signing so many death warrants that he threw a loop and chucked himself into the Eternal Flame. Again.

Morelion, on the other hand... I think he became an explorer, although he at some point must have settled down, as Tyrion's line presumably comes from him.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
Here's something I've always wondered. We know that Morvael is the son of Aenarion and that he sailed off, but where to and what else did he ever do?

His name is Morelion - Morvael was one of the Phoenix Kings. He didn't "sail off" in 7th edition, either. He collected a number of artifacts from the war during the First Incursion, and settled in Avelorn to protect his sister Yvraine. Other than that, it is known that Tyrion and Teclis are descended from him.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:50 pm 
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It's not about Finubar's line, it's Alarielle's

Excatly, why would she care which male would sire her daughter?[/i]

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Eldacar wrote:
His name is Morelion - Morvael was one of the Phoenix Kings. He didn't "sail off" in 7th edition, either. He collected a number of artifacts from the war during the First Incursion, and settled in Avelorn to protect his sister Yvraine. Other than that, it is known that Tyrion and Teclis are descended from him.


Got those two mixed up. I meant Morelion, obviously. Thanks.

ELFLADY01 wrote:
It's not about Finubar's line, it's Alarielle's

Excatly, why would she care which male would sire her daughter?[/i]


Because it's tradition that the daughter of the Phoenix King and the Everqueen will become the new Everqueen. The Gods have decreed so in ages past I s'pose

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:48 am 
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ELFLADY01 wrote:
It's not about Finubar's line, it's Alarielle's

Excatly, why would she care which male would sire her daughter?[/i]

Because the next Everqueen is always the daughter of the previous Everqueen and the Phoenix King. That way, the line of Everqueens is 1) an unbroken one going all the way back to the days of Astarielle, and 2) maintains the tradition of the Phoenix King being wedded to the Everqueen, as it was with Aenarion and Astarielle.

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[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:29 pm 
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Because it's tradition that the daughter of the Phoenix King and the Everqueen will become the new Everqueen. The Gods have decreed so in ages past I s'pose

Where is that written?

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ELFLADY01 wrote:
Where is that written?

"The Queen of Avelorn is the firstborn daughter of the previous queen conceived after her year-long ritual marriage to the Phoenix King. After this they go their separate ways. Both can take new consorts but only their daughter can be the new Everqueen. Hence the Queens of Avelorn have always been the Everqueens of Ulthuan, forming an unbroken chain from ages past." ~High Elf 5th edition Army Book, page 9.

Astarielle was the first Everqueen, and after her it went to Yvraine, then on down. Alarielle is the current Everqueen, and since only the daughter of the previous Everqueen can become the new Everqueen, Alarielle is descended from Astarielle (and, incidentally, Aenarion, because Yvraine was the daughter of Aenarion and Astarielle).

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"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:33 pm 
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Hate to disagree with you here Eldy (well, not really), but there's no word in the new AB about Astarielle being the first Everqueen. In fact, it's at the very least strongly hinted that there were Everqueens before her:

Because a new Phoenix King is not elected until the previous has been dead for a full year, the 'missing year' is always considered to be the last year of the dead King's reign.

And then comes the important part

No records exist concerning the dating system prior to Aenarion's reign (the day he stepped through the Fire of Asuryan being the first day of his reign), except that the Everqueens ruled alone, and the system revolved in some way around them

While English is not my mother tongue, I do tend to believe that I'm quite fluent in it, and to me that seems like there were Everqueens (plural) before Aenarion and Astarielle.


If the first Everqueen ever was also named Astarielle, that's a different matter.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:35 am 
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Luna Guardian wrote:
Hate to disagree with you here Eldy (well, not really), but there's no word in the new AB about Astarielle being the first Everqueen.

She's what you would call the first known Everqueen. Given the timeline of the WH world, prior to Astarielle, it would likely have just been the Old Ones in charge (since they were around up until the beginning of the First Incursion), meaning that the Elves aren't as likely to have worshipped Isha (though, yes, they may have, I'm not denying it). Those days are murky, and (I would think intentionally) there is very little information on them.

With regards to that particular line of text, AFAIK where the language is concerned (I don't have my books near me right now, so I can't check to see if Astarielle was the very first ever or not), it can apply to either side. It could be referring to Astarielle as the only one who ruled prior to Aenarion, and that the Everqueens as a group have not always ruled jointly (even if Astarielle was the only one, it remains applicable to the group as a whole). It can mean the opposite, of course, and Astarielle may have been one of many, but you couldn't (off the top of my head) go much further back than a couple of Everqueens (again, by counting years). One could probably count them on the fingers of one hand at the most, and even then, Astarielle remains the first ever known Everqueen.

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"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:34 am 
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If there were Everqueens before Astarielle, how were they selected? Did the selection process change at any point?

I think we have to imagine a Tolkienesque Dreamtime.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:42 am 
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Eldacar wrote:
With regards to that particular line of text, AFAIK where the language is concerned (I don't have my books near me right now, so I can't check to see if Astarielle was the very first ever or not), it can apply to either side. It could be referring to Astarielle as the only one who ruled prior to Aenarion, and that the Everqueens as a group have not always ruled jointly (even if Astarielle was the only one, it remains applicable to the group as a whole). It can mean the opposite, of course, and Astarielle may have been one of many, but you couldn't (off the top of my head) go much further back than a couple of Everqueens (again, by counting years). One could probably count them on the fingers of one hand at the most, and even then, Astarielle remains the first ever known Everqueen.


Agreed. as a point of interest, someone should ask the fluff department what they meant and how many Everqueens there were (if indeed any) prior to Astarielle

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:49 am 
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Musashi wrote:
If there were Everqueens before Astarielle, how were they selected? Did the selection process change at any point?

It's more or less unknown. As far as "worship and government" goes prior to Aenarion, a general timeline (off the top of my head) is as follows.

In the beginning, the Old Ones are around. There was no real need for gods, since the Elves have direct access to much more "real" beings (so to speak). Warp presences may have begun forming, but to what degree can't be ascertained.

When the Warp gates collapsed, the Old Ones had to leave. Here (or a few centuries/millennia prior), the Elves definitely seemed to begin drawing a connection to various concepts. The "warp spirits" weren't formed into gods yet - rather, the Elves would have likely attempted to define certain portions of reality, with Isha representing life, fertility and so on, Mathlann representing storms, Vaul representing the forge, and so on. Interestingly, whether Khaine existed then or not is harder to say, because the Elves were more or less peaceful before the First Incursion (and thus would have little need for a war-god, though he would quite probably have existed at a more basic level). It's canonical that Elves have a much more personal relationship with their pantheon, and tend to lack the sort of organised hierarchy that exists for, say, Sigmar in the Empire. Instead, there may be gatherings, but each Elf is free to define his own relationship as he or she chooses. In that way, each individual is an agent on his/her terms.

Secondly, Elves deliberately imposed the beliefs, thoughts, dreams and so on on various Aethyric entities. In that way, while humanity created their gods almost unconsciously (though some, such as Volkmar, seem to be at least partially aware of the nature of what a god is), Elves did it quite willingly. As Asuryan and the rest (specifically Isha, in this case) took a more defined shape, the Everqueen would have emerged. (I'm paraphrasing from WHFRP's Tome of Salvation and the Liber Chaotica here, since I still haven't gotten home to where all my books are stored).

Depending on how long this particular stage lasted, the line of the Everqueens probably "began" around either this period of time, or during the time period after the Old Ones had "completed" the Elven race but before the collapse of the Warp gates. Since Elves can live for about two thousand years, though, possibly longer with the aid of magic, there couldn't have been very many of them around.

After that, the First Incursion would have begun in earnest. By now, the pantheon is fully established and the position of Everqueen exists. Aenarion eventually becomes the first Phoenix King, and so on and so forth.

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"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


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My guess, given the presence of the Sword of Khaine, that Khaine, well, at least existed well before the time of Aenarion (although it's worth noticing that that's still a thousand years after the collapse of the gates). My suspicion is that Khaine formed at the same time as the others, as the prime anthropomorphism (or should that be alfropomorphism?) of the destructive impulses the primitive Elves knew they had. He became the god of war when they found that those impulses were needed for warfare.

As a comment, I subscribe to the theory that many of the 'old gods' of humanity are in fact the same as their Elven counterparts - it's likely that with the Elves having started the formation of various deities that those deities may have started drawing power from similar emotions coming from other races.

On that matter, it's also possible to draw analogies between Elven and Lizardmen deities - Asuryan and Chotec come to mind, for instance, as well as Tepok and Hoeth. It's possible that the deities were actually formed on personalities of the Old Ones, and that their worship by their servitor-races created Chaos-entities that were essentially mirror images of those Old Ones.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:25 pm 
One issue I have with your account, Eldacar, is how much time there was between the collapse of the Warp Gates and the Incursion. You get yourself into trouble when you say that there was no need for gods as long as the Old Ones were around, because if, as I suspect, there's a very short period of time between the collapse of the Warp Gates and the invasion of the daemonic legions there is not enough time to form the gods nor any logical explanation for a Golden Age of peace based around the Everqueen of /Isha/.

This discussion is, in general, a major problem with how GW has chosen to take the Fantasy religions in the past few years. We can all accept that the gods are warp entities, daemons writ on a grand scale. But this whole thing becomes a cynical, almost nihilistic affair once you start adding in the crap from the Liber Chaoticas and other new roleplay sources. The elven gods as described by Eldacar aren't gods at all, they're tools. Who would ever respect the will of Asuryan if it was generally known that he was not only an emanation of a sense of justice and fairness that not rests at the base of the elven soul, but an formless warp blob fashioned and molded by the elves to suit their purposes? In Eldacar's construction Asuryan is not the god of the elves, the elves are the gods of Asuryan. Who would ever respect these gods, who would ever fear them, who would ever treat them as /gods/, if you built them? As wise as the elves are, I suspect that they don't know everything about themselves, and that these aspects cannot lie to the warp. It's possible for gods to be warp entities and be mysterious at the same time. Why are we trying to make the gods, well, not?

It's the same trend in this fascination with 'aspects'. Is Khaine an aspect of Khorne, are the human gods really just elven gods etc. etc. In this sense 40k kicks the crap out of fantasy because there's a clear line. They do a much better job with the Eldar/Elven pantheon, and that's the example I'd like to follow. The aspects are separate gods. Even if they're just schizophrenic warp entities, they're separate. The whole question of 'aspects' is meaningless because even if it's true it's irrelevant since the deities certainly don't act like it. Khaine is not Khorne, just as murder is distinct from slaughter. Pay attention to the small differences between the gods.


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VictorK wrote:
Who would ever respect the will of Asuryan if it was generally known that he was not only an emanation of a sense of justice and fairness that not rests at the base of the elven soul, but an formless warp blob fashioned and molded by the elves to suit their purposes? In Eldacar's construction Asuryan is not the god of the elves, the elves are the gods of Asuryan. Who would ever respect these gods, who would ever fear them, who would ever treat them as /gods/, if you built them?


Ever think that maybe that's the point? Warhammer is dark fantasy, after all; a degree of cynicism is desirable. You've identified one quality of the gods, certainly. Gods are psychic parasites. That's just what they are. It's not their fault. The question, then, is what you do with that knowledge. It does mean that you can't derive a moral code from divine command, but I was under the impression that we wouldn't want to do that any way. A god is a blob of Aethyric energy, but you do realise that mortal souls are themselves made out of Aethyric energy; really, if you're going to criticise the gods for their Aethyric natures, then you might as well reduce sentient creatures to nothing but jerking meat puppets while you're at it.

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It's the same trend in this fascination with 'aspects'. Is Khaine an aspect of Khorne, are the human gods really just elven gods etc. etc. In this sense 40k kicks the crap out of fantasy because there's a clear line.


What are you talking about? If, anything, 40k blurs it together more explicitly than Fantasy, which is one thing I like about it. Remember how the Eldar gods were absorbed into the Chaos gods, and how Khaine, because he had become aspected to both Slaanesh and Khorne, was torn apart and came to rest in the Materium, for example?

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The aspects are separate gods. Even if they're just schizophrenic warp entities, they're separate.


Certainly you can view them that way, but I don't think it makes any difference. Whether you call them one giant deity or a thousand spirits, they'll still act the same way.

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The whole question of 'aspects' is meaningless because even if it's true it's irrelevant since the deities certainly don't act like it.


Don't they?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:29 pm 
FVC wrote:
Ever think that maybe that's the point? Warhammer is dark fantasy, after all; a degree of cynicism is desirable. You've identified one quality of the gods, certainly. Gods are psychic parasites. That's just what they are. It's not their fault. The question, then, is what you do with that knowledge. It does mean that you can't derive a moral code from divine command, but I was under the impression that we wouldn't want to do that any way. A god is a blob of Aethyric energy, but you do realise that mortal souls are themselves made out of Aethyric energy; really, if you're going to criticise the gods for their Aethyric natures, then you might as well reduce sentient creatures to nothing but jerking meat puppets while you're at it.


I'm not questioning their warp nature or criticizing them for it. It's just what implications you draw from that I criticize.

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What are you talking about? If, anything, 40k blurs it together more explicitly than Fantasy, which is one thing I like about it. Remember how the Eldar gods were absorbed into the Chaos gods, and how Khaine, because he had become aspected to both Slaanesh and Khorne, was torn apart and came to rest in the Materium, for example?


Look at the story again. It clearly establishes that the gods were separate, but the Fall destroyed them. That's a very clear line, we know what happened. 40k does a better job of explaining the nature of its gods, and though that is not in itself a virtue if the mysteriousness in the Fantasy canon generates conclusions like Eldacar's I would rather have the 40k clarity.

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Don't they?


No, they don't.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:57 pm 
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This question is probably better posted in the other thread, but speaking of fantasy and 40k: are the 40k Chaos Gods the "same" as their fantasy counterparts?

Also, we may have addressed this already, but I seemed to have miss it.Aare there multiple candidates for the Everqueen? In other words, if the Everqueen had more than one daughter, would her daughters receive ...training, or something to decide who becomes the next one? Or is it always the eldest daughter?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:16 pm 
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Arondight wrote:
This question is probably better posted in the other thread, but speaking of fantasy and 40k: are the 40k Chaos Gods the "same" as their fantasy counterparts?


More or less. Khorne is still a psychopathic killer, Tzeench is that creepy guy who seems to be everywhere at once and who seems to know everything, Nurgle's that obese creep with a serious hygiene problem and Slaanesh is the hormone-crazed teenager with sadistic tendencies.

Arondight wrote:
Also, we may have addressed this already, but I seemed to have miss it.Aare there multiple candidates for the Everqueen? In other words, if the Everqueen had more than one daughter, would her daughters receive ...training, or something to decide who becomes the next one? Or is it always the eldest daughter?


It's always he firstborn daughter of the Everqueen and the Phoenix King. should she die, I suppose they'd have to do another one (kinda cold now that I think of it...)

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:36 am 
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VictorK wrote:
I'm not questioning their warp nature or criticizing them for it. It's just what implications you draw from that I criticize.


Oh? What implications are those?

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Look at the story again. It clearly establishes that the gods were separate, but the Fall destroyed them.


Let us look at the story, shall we?

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When Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody Handed God of the Eldar, fought with Slaanesh the Lord of Pleasure, he was quickly overwhelmed and his energy captured by the newborn God. For the Bloody Handed God was as much a part of Slaanesh as of Khorne - being a product of that part of the Eldar nature which finds gratification in murder and pleasure in bloody violence. Khorne the Blood God, the Patron of War, Murder and Battle, roared with rage to discover one of his own taken from him in this way. Then Khorne and Slaanesh clashed headlong, the Blood God fighting to recover the portion of his power that had been robbed from him, Slaanesh driven by his uncontrollable hunger to consume everything in his path. The Bloody Handed God of the Eldar was tossed this way and that, at first grasped by Slaanesh, then tugged back into the compass of Khorne.

Eventually the rage of the Blood God and the passion of the Lord of Pleasure were exhausted, and the boundaries between them were established. Like a leaf in the eye of a hurricane, Kaela Mensha Khaine fell among the calm, down through the Realm of Chaos and into the material universe. As he entered the material universe he divided into many shards of energy, scattering his power so that neither Khorne or Slaanesh could ever find him again. Each shard entered the body of an Eldar, filling the body with his own mind, possessing it, so that it became a virtually indestructible blood-lusting murderer - the material manifestation of the Bloody Handed God. These are the Avatars of the Bloody Handed God.


You will notice, I think, that the story tallies with what I said perfectly.

Khaine had become aspected to both Khorne and Slaanesh, and so Khorne and Slaanesh clashed over it and Khaine took refuge in the Materium.

Of course, what is aspected to what is rarely clear. When Khaine was powerful, it would have been more true to say that Khorne was aspected to Khaine.

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That's a very clear line, we know what happened.


Indeed we do. Aspects, VictorK, aspects. I mean, come on, Khaine himself has aspects. The Destroyer, for example, is the aspect of Khaine as death god, and is imitated by Dark Reapers. The Dire Avengers are described to imitate another aspect of Khaine, the noble warrior. Given the explicit statements that Khaine himself is aspected, is it so hard to imagine that there are more aspects than that, on higher and higher levels?

Gods aspect themselves. It is the nature of the Aethyr.

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40k does a better job of explaining the nature of its gods, and though that is not in itself a virtue if the mysteriousness in the Fantasy canon generates conclusions like Eldacar's I would rather have the 40k clarity.


Indeed, 40k does often describe it better, because 40k can't play the mythology card as strongly. Sometimes it does (this is why Codex: Chaos Daemons is horrible, for instance), but often you find that 40k writers feel more compelled to try and explain the Aethyr/Warp rationally, because, unlike in Fantasy, in 40k there are highly advanced societies that have made organised study of it. In Fantasy it's very easy to believe that the White Tower or the Colleges of Magic could have got something dramatically wrong. The Eldar, though, or the Scholastica Psykana, or whatever else, is going to be more reliable.

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No, they don't.


I think they do.

[

Certainly they are qualitatively identical. Whether they are the actual same beings, though, as opposed to identical twins in different universes, depends on how literally you take Liber Chaotica. On a straight reading, yes, the Khorne the World Eaters serve is the exact same being that empowered Haargroth. You may not want to make a straight reading, though.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:56 am 
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Back on the topic of Everqueens, is it possible that the Old Ones created the Everqueens to be their "viceroy" to the elven people. You know, someone to rule in their stead so that the young race wouldn't tax themselves trying to figure out why their patrons looked nothing like them?

It is frequently referenced in the lore that the Old Ones, and their Slann servants, manipulated many races from afar. In the best case, the fledgling people didn't even know they were being guided, just that divine leadership walked amongst them in one form or another.

This could explain why the line of the Everqueen has never been broken. Her mystical connection to Ulthuan is probably something the Old Ones imprinted into her DNA, something that could only be realized through the continuation of her genes via an offspring. That being said, does it truly matter who the father of the child is, or does the father have to go through the flames of Asuryan and be blessed by the High Elf god before a successful coupling can be made?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:24 am 
FVC wrote:
Oh? What implications are those?


The ones raised by Eldacar in his post.

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Khaine had become aspected to both Khorne and Slaanesh, and so Khorne and Slaanesh clashed over it and Khaine took refuge in the Materium.


Look at your grammar here. Khaine /had become/. As in, was separate, and is now absorbed. He was destroyed and ceased to be independent. I never said that gods could not be devoured by other gods, but the Eldar story makes clear that Khaine and Khorne are separate entities, and that this whole notion of aspects is useless, because it is then synonymous with separate and independent. What does it matter if Khaine is an aspect of Khorne, if he is completely independent? We might as well ditch the whole notion of aspects because they're useless.

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Aspects, VictorK, aspects. I mean, come on, Khaine himself has aspects. The Destroyer, for example, is the aspect of Khaine as death god, and is imitated by Dark Reapers. The Dire Avengers are described to imitate another aspect of Khaine, the noble warrior. Given the explicit statements that Khaine himself is aspected, is it so hard to imagine that there are more aspects than that, on higher and higher levels?


You're confusing aspects with different interpretations. Saying that Khaine has different aspects and that Khaine is merely an aspect of Khorne are two different things. In this case Khaine is not analogous to the Destroyer or the Dire Avenger. It is a relatively simple thing to say that we might interpret a God of Murder different ways, it is entirely another to claim that Khaine is really just Khorne in a different aspect.

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I think they do.


Then you're looking only a superficialities like body count. Khaine does not act the same way as Khorne at all. Khorne doesn't care. Khorne wants skulls. He is impersonal and disinterested in the concerns of the slaughter. Khaine is wholly different, what is murder if not an intensely personal act? I would rather say that Khaine and Khorne share their origin from similar impulses than say that Khaine is an aspect of Khorne which has all kinds of erroneous and foolish connotations. In order to make Fantasy a viable and worthwhile system we need to be able to say that the gods are distinct entities who, while arising from similar impulses, are nuanced enough so that we don't end up with four big warp blobs endlessly subdivided in ways that make no sense and do nothing to enrich the setting.

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depends on how literally you take Liber Chaotica. On a straight reading, yes, the Khorne the World Eaters serve is the exact same being that empowered Haargroth. You may not want to make a straight reading, though.


Throw the Libers Chaotica in the trash. Get rid of WFRP. Dethrone Black Library as canon. Then, and only then, will you arrive at a system that has some coherency.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:57 am 
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One issue I have with your account, Eldacar, is how much time there was between the collapse of the Warp Gates and the Incursion.

It's unknown. I'm guessing a few centuries. It is, of course, equally possible that it took millennia, or the reverse (no time at all).

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You get yourself into trouble when you say that there was no need for gods as long as the Old Ones were around, because if,

There was no need to consciously pay attention to the concept of gods, no. They would still have formed over time in the Aethyr, but their "design" (for lack of a better term) would have been much more vague than it was once the Elves deliberately started worshipping them.

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as I suspect, there's a very short period of time between the collapse of the Warp Gates and the invasion of the daemonic legions there is not enough time to form the gods nor any logical explanation for a Golden Age of peace based around the Everqueen of /Isha/.

Define "short" first (i.e. a few years, a few decades, a few centuries?). Moreover, the Elven histories in that regard are flawed, or at least incomplete. The elf talking about the "Golden Age" is living in Caradryel's time, and he still doesn't know much about it. Only the oldest songs of the High Elven bards even remember the Old Ones themselves. I mentioned it above: what is known regarding those times is murky at best.

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This discussion is, in general, a major problem with how GW has chosen to take the Fantasy religions in the past few years. We can all accept that the gods are warp entities, daemons writ on a grand scale. But this whole thing becomes a cynical, almost nihilistic affair once you start adding in the crap from the Liber Chaoticas and other new roleplay sources.

It's been around for much longer than the past few years. The concept has existed going right back to 3rd edition and earlier. The books I use as references most often (Realms of Sorcery, Tome of Salvation, Liber Chaotica) are merely the most recent iterations of those concepts. If you have a complaint with it, you'd be better off aiming your complaint at Warhammer being dark fantasy rather than high fantasy in general, not just the last few years. On the sliding scale of idealism vs. cynicism, Warhammer is very much a cynical world.

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The elven gods as described by Eldacar aren't gods at all, they're tools.

How are they not gods? They are very much gods - "divine" beings who can enact their will on the material world in via certain methods. Calling them a tool just because they were originally formed from elven (or human, in the case of human gods) thoughts, dreams and the like doesn't make much sense to me.

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In Eldacar's construction Asuryan is not the god of the elves, the elves are the gods of Asuryan.

My construction? Since when was it ever my construction? If you like, I'll find you the quotes and page numbers from canonical material that backs up what I'm saying. It isn't my construction, it belongs to GW.

And, incidentally, Asuryan is very much a god of the elves. That he originally came into being partially as a result of the elves themselves shouldn't really have much to do with it. He exists and has power far beyond the scale of any mortal (albeit limited by certain rules that are a part of his existence, just as they are a part of the existence of any god). Moreover, now that he does exist, the Elves can't just un-exist him whenever they feel like it. They have essentially placed Asuryan above themselves.

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It's possible for gods to be warp entities and be mysterious at the same time.

They are mysterious. Think about this: Why are the Chaos Gods trying to destroy the world and every living creature in it if they themselves know that they will cease to exist (or at the very least lose their coherence and sentience) when they succeed? Why did Asuryan within Aenarion oppose Caledor Dragontamer's plan to create the Vortex when he should have realised that it would save his people? The gods exist on a completely different level of "being" to a mortal, with motives, compulsions and drives that are essentially incomprehensible to their followers. They aren't like, say, the Greek or Roman gods, who were often very much like mortals in their drives and wants, but with a lot more power.

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Why are we trying to make the gods, well, not?

So basically, you take issue with what the Warhammer world calls a god, because it doesn't match up with what you think should be a god?

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Khaine is not Khorne, just as murder is distinct from slaughter. Pay attention to the small differences between the gods.

I pay much more attention to it than you'd think, I suspect. Nor do I really see what Khaine has to do with it, since anybody who even halfway bothered to read the material would know that he is distinct from Khorne.

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Then, and only then, will you arrive at a system that has some coherency.

You won't have a system at all, if you're saying what I think you're saying.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:31 am 
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VictorK wrote:
Look at your grammar here. Khaine /had become/. As in, was separate, and is now absorbed.


Yes. Khaine had gradually become aspected. The ability of a god to maintain coherent self-existence is based upon its ability to differentiate itself from other deities. By the Fall, Khaine had become such that he could not differentiate himself from Slaanesh or Khorne - he was aspected of Slaanesh and Khorne - and so was torn apart.

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but the Eldar story makes clear that Khaine and Khorne are separate entities, and that this whole notion of aspects is useless, because it is then synonymous with separate and independent.


There are degrees of aspection, VictorK. Your view of this is too simplistic. Khaine and Khorne are able to act upon the world in qualitatively different manners while still aspecting each other.

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What does it matter if Khaine is an aspect of Khorne, if he is completely independent?


He is not completely independent. No god is.

Remember that a god is a creature of belief, and of psychic energy. A god must act according to its own nature. Khorne kills, because Khorne literally is killing (or rather, a certain group of emotions that frequently lead to killing, but you take my point). The same for Khaine, though of course there are degrees and different types of killing and so forth. If Khorne decided not to kill (which he can't, because he's actually psychologically incapable of doing so on the most fundamental level of his being), then he would be denying the very thing that makes him Khorne and he would thus negate his own existence.

When beliefs about a god change, that god must also change; for to do otherwise is to negate their existences. The Eldar gods other than Khaine were all consumed by Slaanesh with ease because, due to the shifting natures of Eldar beliefs and emotions, their essences had become similar to that of Slaanesh. It's all quite logical.

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You're confusing aspects with different interpretations.


Explain what you mean by 'interpretation'.

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In this case Khaine is not analogous to the Destroyer or the Dire Avenger.


The Destroyer is Khaine. The Dire Avenger is Khaine. The Destroyer is not the Dire Avenger. Aspection is not transitive.

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It is a relatively simple thing to say that we might interpret a God of Murder different ways, it is entirely another to claim that Khaine is really just Khorne in a different aspect.


No, it is not. It is the same thing, because, as gods are beings of belief and emotion, in a very immediate and literal sense they are their interpretations. A god is what mortals feel.

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Then you're looking only a superficialities like body count.


I'm looking at emotions. The deeds are unimportant; what really matter are the emotions behind them. And there is overlap between different emotions.

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would rather say that Khaine and Khorne share their origin from similar impulses than say that Khaine is an aspect of Khorne


That's the same thing. Khaine and Khorne are both aspects of the non-sensate anger/rage vortex.

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In order to make Fantasy a viable and worthwhile system we need to be able to say that the gods are distinct entities who, while arising from similar impulses, are nuanced enough so that we don't end up with four big warp blobs endlessly subdivided in ways that make no sense and do nothing to enrich the setting.


Why?

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Throw the Libers Chaotica in the trash. Get rid of WFRP. Dethrone Black Library as canon. Then, and only then, will you arrive at a system that has some coherency.


Hey, I'm a staunch proponent of building your own interpretation and picking the elements of canon that most appeal to you. Eldacar is the strict 'this is what GW says therefore it's true and there will be no argument' person. I'm much more flexible. GW contradicts itself all the time. Pick what you most like and go with that.

But I am unwilling to throw out Liber Chaotica. Liber Chaotica is, if I may be excused some juvenile phrasing, freaking awesome. I would sooner throw out WHFB and WFRP both before I throw out Liber Chaotica.

But I admit that's subjective. My view of the gods is based on several key sources, including Liber Chaotica, Realms of Chaos, and certain other books. If you prefer a black and white, simplistic view of the gods analogous to any standard D&D pantheon, then you're welcome to it, but I do scorn that approach because I think it's far less intriguing than my own view.


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