Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
It is currently Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:29 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 121 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:57 am 
Offline
Auctoritas Principis
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Posts: 1726
Quote:
Eldacar is the strict 'this is what GW says therefore it's true and there will be no argument' person.

Actually, I'm willing to speculate when there's room to speculate (case in point being a debate I think we had about either the Dwarf gods or the Bretonnians/Wood Elves once, some time ago now, and a more recent one about Vampires). If something is said point-blank, however, then there's no room to speculate (e.g. it's been said outright that WHFB and WH40K are not linked, so they're not linked, and fan-theories about such concepts as Sigmar being a Primarch etc. won't be anything other than theories), so I see little reason to do so.

_________________
"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 125
Fair enough too. The point I was making, if in a glib and not-entirely-coherent manner, was that you're not willing to ignore a piece of canon. You are willing to speculate, but only if published canon is sufficiently vague that you can speculate without contradicting something.

I, conversely, am entirely willing to disregard certain parts of canon based on personal preference. We've been over it before and have agreed to disagree, but essentially, I'm willing to house rule away bits of canon I don't like. You're more strict with yourself. I might say 'canon says this, but I don't really like that, so how about we go with this instead?', but I can't imagine you doing the same.

As I say, we've been over it before and I think we understand each other. I'm just making sure VictorK knows the difference. We both disagree with him, but you and I come at it from very different angles.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:10 am 
Offline
Auctoritas Principis
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Posts: 1726
FVC wrote:
Fair enough too. The point I was making, if in a glib and not-entirely-coherent manner, was that you're not willing to ignore a piece of canon. You are willing to speculate, but only if published canon is sufficiently vague that you can speculate without contradicting something.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Though I'll ignore it (or be more willing to put my own spin on it) if it's overruled or can be obviously proven to be subjective (e.g. the 6th edition HE, DE and Dwarf army books). Events as detailed in those are quite obviously not what actually happened, though I remember trying to put together a version of the WotB that was entirely objective once.

I'm a bit more loose with something like the Forgotten Realms, mostly because I find it much more difficult (EDIT: near-impossible, even) for me to not contradict canon somewhere in that huge monstrosity of a world when I try to write a story set there. There's probably just too much information for anybody other than the creator to categorise effectively (and completely understand). And said creator has a basement full of unpublished material to go along with all the published stuff as well.

Quote:
As I say, we've been over it before and I think we understand each other.

I'd say so.

_________________
"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 125
Eldacar wrote:
I'm a bit more loose with something like the Forgotten Realms, mostly because I find it much more difficult for me to not contradict canon somewhere in that huge monstrosity of a world when I try to write a story set there. There's probably just too much information for anybody other than the creator to categorise effectively (and completely understand). And said creator has a basement full of unpublished material to go along with all the published stuff as well.


Ha, in something like the Forgotten Realms I don't even pretend to care about canon. At least in Warhammer I'll make a cursory effort at rationalising something before jumping to the 'ignore it' solution. The Realms are just not worth the effort. There's a decent setting at the Realms' core, but the creators really aren't very clear on the details. Fortunately, as I recall the FRCS does actually say 'feel free to change or revise any of this at all for your games', so at least there I feel I have some justification for that attitude.

Warhammer isn't quite that loose, but honestly I do see enough contradictions, and enough conflicting creative agendas on the part of the designers that I see no reason to worry too much about the word of canon. I'll leave it at that, though. Best not derail this topic too much. ;)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:39 am 
Eldacar wrote:
It's unknown. I'm guessing a few centuries. It is, of course, equally possible that it took millennia, or the reverse (no time at all).


I've always gotten the impression that it was a sudden event. The Warp Gates collapsed, which forced the Old Ones to flee, or brought about their Fall.

Quote:
There was no need to consciously pay attention to the concept of gods, no. They would still have formed over time in the Aethyr, but their "design" (for lack of a better term) would have been much more vague than it was once the Elves deliberately started worshipping them.


This is different than what you said before. I can essentially agree with this statement.

Quote:
It's been around for much longer than the past few years. The concept has existed going right back to 3rd edition and earlier.


As I've said, there's a difference between the normal Moorcockian conception of the gods and making them warp blobs essentially broken down into four sections with a bunch of difference faces who are just tools for their worshippers. We've drifted towards the latter, which I don't think is good for the canon.

Quote:
How are they not gods? They are very much gods - "divine" beings who can enact their will on the material world in via certain methods. Calling them a tool just because they were originally formed from elven (or human, in the case of human gods) thoughts, dreams and the like doesn't make much sense to me.


You fundamentally misunderstand me. I have never questioned that the gods were created from the spiritual emanations of mortals. But you went a step further when you started talking about the elves deliberately shaping the nature of their gods, which completely changes the nature of their existence. If the elven pantheon is something which was engineered, and not something which emerged organically from the elves, it's a whole new ball game. The gods aren't gods, they're warp batteries that mortals call on to do their bidding. Who would worship such a god? You wouldn't, you would only use them. This is what I'm arguing against, not the basic conception that the Warhammer gods are entities deriving from the "psychic" emanations of mortals.

Quote:
My construction? Since when was it ever my construction? If you like, I'll find you the quotes and page numbers from canonical material that backs up what I'm saying. It isn't my construction, it belongs to GW.


It's your construction because it's how you choose to interpret the canon.

Quote:
And, incidentally, Asuryan is very much a god of the elves. That he originally came into being partially as a result of the elves themselves shouldn't really have much to do with it.


But how? If Asuryan is the unconscious emanation of a deep seated sense of justice at the heart of the elven soul, as I believe he is, we're in business and the canon make sense. If, as you asserted, the elves deliberately created him, we're left with a bunch of holes and a lot of questions. How does he have any authority over the elves, when he exists only as their tool? This is what I meant when I said that if we adopt your view Asuryan is not the god of the elves, the elves are the god of Asuryan, because they created him, he did not arise from them.

Quote:
They are mysterious. Think about this: Why are the Chaos Gods trying to destroy the world and every living creature in it if they themselves know that they will cease to exist (or at the very least lose their coherence and sentience) when they succeed? Why did Asuryan within Aenarion oppose Caledor Dragontamer's plan to create the Vortex when he should have realised that it would save his people? The gods exist on a completely different level of "being" to a mortal, with motives, compulsions and drives that are essentially incomprehensible to their followers.


I agree with all of this, but I don't think it's consistent with your construction. It's impossible if we adopt your concept of the canon. You cannot get a mysterious Asuryan (though I suspect it was Aenarion's pride, not Asuryan's justice which opposed Caledor) who is a viable actor if he's just a warp blob fashioned by elven minds for their conscious bidding.

Quote:
I pay much more attention to it than you'd think, I suspect. Nor do I really see what Khaine has to do with it, since anybody who even halfway bothered to read the material would know that he is distinct from Khorne.


I only use Khaine and Khorne because it's the most familiar example. I never thought or meant to assert that you believed they were synonymous.

Quote:
You won't have a system at all, if you're saying what I think you're saying.


I think it's clear from your post that you don't actually know what I'm saying.

FVC wrote:
There are degrees of aspection, VictorK. Your view of this is too simplistic. Khaine and Khorne are able to act upon the world in qualitatively different manners while still aspecting each other.


At which point the whole question of aspectation is moot. They're different entities, end of story. If they share a psychic link that has no influence on them, who cares? Why do we even talk about it if it has no impact? You seem determined to say that they are the same entity, and then completely walk away from any implications of that statement! It's meaningless! Why are we even talking about it?

Quote:
When beliefs about a god change, that god must also change; for to do otherwise is to negate their existences. The Eldar gods other than Khaine were all consumed by Slaanesh with ease because, due to the shifting natures of Eldar beliefs and emotions, their essences had become similar to that of Slaanesh. It's all quite logical.


I suppose that's one interpretation, though it again leads to the pointlessly reductionist interpretation that the gods are nothing more than warp blobs in four general divisions which makes the whole thing confusing and ultimately irrelevant. We could also say that Slaanesh was simply more powerful and chose to devour the other gods. It was a fundamental shift in the Eldar, and it did weaken the traditional pantheon, but I don't believe that Slaanesh devoured them because they were similar to Slaanesh. Slaanesh devoured them because they were dissimilar, destroying and uniting the pantheon at the same time. It seems hardly fit to describe it as a conflict, indeed the rape of the Eldar psyche, if things simply changed and shifted so that the other gods became Slaanesh. No, the situation cannot be fully explained by your interpretation. Mine fully allows for the rise of Slaanesh and the weakening of the elven pantheon while explaining why there was a conflict at all and not a "peaceful" transition from one warp blob to another. You drain out that conflict and make the canon sterile if we adopt your approach.

Quote:
Explain what you mean by 'interpretation'.


You're being tricked by the English language here. As I said before, while Khaine might have different aspects (the Destroyer) that does not mean that this situation is analogous to Khaine as an aspect to Khorne (The Destroyer is to Khaine as Khaine is to Khorne). Aspect here is the same word but means two different things, the first meaning 'same as' the second meaning 'part of'. It's two different things. You don't change Khaine to make him The Destroyer, but he sure as hell is different than Khorne. One aspect of Ebeneezer Scrooge is that he's a trader, is different than saying that the Holy Spirit is one aspect of the triune God. The words are the same but they mean different things in different contexts.

Quote:
Why?


Quote:
If you prefer a black and white, simplistic view of the gods analogous to any standard D&D pantheon, then you're welcome to it, but I do scorn that approach because I think it's far less intriguing than my own view.


I really think you and Eldacar need to go back over what I'm saying. I am not, nor have I ever, questioned that the gods are the result of spiritual emanations from mortals manifested in the Warp. Never. I defend that wholeheartedly. That is distinct from the dry DnD pantheon. But you go too far in the other direction. You make the gods boring. Oh, they're all the same warp blob with different faces? Well then, who cares? Why should I feel anything as a gamer at a reader for any of these gods if they infinitely reduce down to nothing? Because that's ultimately the implication of your argument that gods cannot be independent and are all essentially unthinking and unreasoning entities bouncing around for no purpose. We need to have a middle ground between this concept and our traditional mythic pantheons with anthropomorphic gods. Otherwise, you have either the stale familiar systems or something so radical that your entire system descends into incoherence. The gods must be characters too, not just some dumb strand of psychic power your character calls on for aid.

Perhaps I better explain myself in the writing I've done for the site. I try very hard to strike that balance in my portrayal of the Chaos Gods and others for the Dark Empire campaign. It's all available for your perusal in the library.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 125
VictorK wrote:
At which point the whole question of aspectation is moot. They're different entities, end of story.


I did not say that Khaine is Khorne, or vice versa. You misunderstand the subtleties of the aspect relationship. Khaine and Khorne may well be different, but they are, so to speak, different 'faces' of the one Aethyric vortex.

Quote:
If they share a psychic link that has no influence on them, who cares? Why do we even talk about it if it has no impact?


Of course it influences them. It has great impact. Khaine and Khorne are both gods that rely on the thrill of battle for sustenance. Is that not an impact? At present in Warhammer Fantasy, they seem different, because the distinction between...

Actually, forget that. I really don't like WHF Khaine. Or rather, I don't like Khaine as Lord of Murder. I don't care for WHF Dark Elves in general. Assuming I'm talking about the High Elf Khaine, because that one is more or less the same as the Eldar Khaine in 40k, and that's a Khaine I'm interested in. Khaine the demon god of murder and assassination is quite dull and I do not wish to speak of him. The Dark Elf Khaine is a different aspect to the High Elf Khaine, much like the Wood Elf Isha is a different aspect to the High Elf Isha.

... yes, anyway, Khaine and Khorne seem different because the distinction between the types of emotion they feed on remains clear. They would become more similar, and blur together at the edges, if that distinction became less clear. That's where the Dark Elf Khaine is: right between the High Elf Khaine and Khorne.

Basically, the question is one of differentiation. Khaine and Khorne seem qualitatively different because while they are of common origin, they are specialised in ways that allow for the existence of a coherent Khaine-concept as distinct from the Khorne-concept. Should these concepts lose their coherency and the deities become less conceptially differentiated, they should begin to merge more.

Quote:
You seem determined to say that they are the same entity, and then completely walk away from any implications of that statement! It's meaningless! Why are we even talking about it?


I've not said that Khaine and Khorne are the same. I've said that there is an aspect relation between them. That's not the same thing. They are of the same origin and composed of the same Aethyric vortex, which is what the aspect relation derives from.

If I may respond in kind, you seem determined to say that the aspect relation is actually an identity relation. It is not. You're oversimplifying it.

Quote:
I suppose that's one interpretation, though it again leads to the pointlessly reductionist interpretation that the gods are nothing more than warp blobs in four general divisions which makes the whole thing confusing and ultimately irrelevant.


Why is that pointless?

Incidentally, why four general divisions? There is that statement in the Hordes of Chaos AB about the Chaos gods being the four corners of mortal emotion and primal, elemental forces in their own right, but that's actually in the category of things that I choose to disregard for reasons of personal preference. I don't make any claims about how many Aethyric vortices there are. It's actually a pretty arbitrary judgement, based on where you think irreducible nuclei of pure emotion exist, and that's a very subjective judgement, based on whatever theory of mortal psychology you prefer. The four corners theory is one, but I don't subscribe to it.

Quote:
We could also say that Slaanesh was simply more powerful and chose to devour the other gods.


We could. I would not want to, however. I feel it is a much clumsier explanation. I like my explanation because I can explain all the gods reductively, in terms of a relatively small list of base axioms.

Quote:
It was a fundamental shift in the Eldar, and it did weaken the traditional pantheon, but I don't believe that Slaanesh devoured them because they were similar to Slaanesh. Slaanesh devoured them because they were dissimilar, destroying and uniting the pantheon at the same time. It seems hardly fit to describe it as a conflict, indeed the rape of the Eldar psyche, if things simply changed and shifted so that the other gods became Slaanesh.


The Fall wasn't a conflict. Slaanesh arose, triumphant and invincible. There was no war. There was never any chance of standing against Slaanesh successfully. That's what lends the event its dread majesty; that events had transpired that there was simply no fighting Slaanesh. The Eldar could not fight Slaanesh because it meant fighting themselves, and while the Craftworld Eldar did come to develop fighting themselves into an art form, at the time of the Fall it was never going to happen. It would be like the Dark Eldar trying to fight Slaanesh; impossible, because their very actions are what create and rejuvenate Slaanesh in the first place. And the Eldar gods? They had no power, because of that shift in the Eldar psyche. Remember that the Eldar gods were once mighty. The Eldar gods once strode across the galaxy and crushed all before them, scattering the Necrons and the Yngir before them. How weak were they by the Fall? How much had the Eldar gods' own identities become subordinated to the overpowering influence of Slaanesh?

You're wrong. It wasn't the rape of the Eldar psyche. The Eldar psyche was itself the rapist. The gods were the victims, and Slaanesh is what they became.

Have you ever heard of a concept called the Greatest Secret? A well-known 40k internet guru, Kage2020, produced it. The idea is this: the Keepers of Secrets are the greatest daemons of Slaanesh, right? What secrets do they keep? All of them: except the secret of their own identities. Only Slaanesh knows that, and that's why she has power over them. The Keepers of the Secrets are the Eldar gods, twisted and perverted to have become Slaaneshi. The Eldar, before the Fall, made their gods into those things.

Quote:
Mine fully allows for the rise of Slaanesh and the weakening of the elven pantheon while explaining why there was a conflict at all and not a "peaceful" transition from one warp blob to another. You drain out that conflict and make the canon sterile if we adopt your approach.


I believe you misunderstand my approach. I find that yours is formulaic, clichéd, and simply boring. I believe that I can explain the Aethyr more elegantly than you can, and thus the interactions of the gods and the changes they undergo.

Quote:
As I said before, while Khaine might have different aspects (the Destroyer) that does not mean that this situation is analogous to Khaine as an aspect to Khorne (The Destroyer is to Khaine as Khaine is to Khorne).


I think it is. The Destroyer is a real entity. On top of that layer, Khaine is the rage vortex, and Khorne is the rage vortex, but Khaine is not Khorne.

Quote:
You don't change Khaine to make him The Destroyer, but he sure as hell is different than Khorne


You're jumping from level to level. You don't change the rage vortex to make it Khaine, nor do you change it to make it Khorne. You would need to change Khaine to make him into Khorne, because Khaine and Khorne are on the same level. Similarly, you don't need to change Khaine to make him the Destroyer, nor the Dire Avenger, but you would need to change the Destroyer to make it into the Dire Avenger.

So here, we have three levels of aspection, from the gross (the rage vortex) down to increasingly subtle refinements of the concept (the Destroyer, the Dire Avenger). The more subtle the refinement, the weaker it is, naturally, but also the more defined sense of self it possesses and the more anthropomorphised it becomes. (Hence why no one worships the rage vortex, and no Aspect Warrior imitates Khaine, only the more anthropomorphic aspects.)

Quote:
I really think you and Eldacar need to go back over what I'm saying.


Right back at you. ;)

Quote:
But you go too far in the other direction. You make the gods boring.


I do not believe so. I believe the approach that I have been outlining is the most intriguing one. That is why I hold to this approach. Should I find a more interesting one, I will adopt that one.

Quote:
Oh, they're all the same warp blob with different faces? Well then, who cares? Why should I feel anything as a gamer at a reader for any of these gods if they infinitely reduce down to nothing? Because that's ultimately the implication of your argument that gods cannot be independent and are all essentially unthinking and unreasoning entities bouncing around for no purpose.


You're oversimplifying the argument again, and essentially attacking a straw man of my position. I shall not respond to it, because I only feel compelled to respond to criticisms of what I'm actually saying.

Quote:
We need to have a middle ground between this concept and our traditional mythic pantheons with anthropomorphic gods.


It is my opinion that I have provided that. You swing too far towards anthropomorphic deities.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:10 am 
Offline
Auctoritas Principis
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Posts: 1726
Quote:
Ha, in something like the Forgotten Realms I don't even pretend to care about canon.

I'm ignoring everything from the end of 3rd edition onwards. Wizards of the Coast have butchered the Realms with what they've done, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
This is different than what you said before.

No it isn't. Here:

"Warp presences may have begun forming, but to what degree can't be ascertained."

"Here (or a few centuries/millennia prior), the Elves definitely seemed to begin drawing a connection to various concepts. The "warp spirits" weren't formed into gods yet..."

"...and thus would have little need for a war-god, though he would quite probably have existed at a more basic level..."

"As Asuryan and the rest (specifically Isha, in this case) took a more defined shape, the Everqueen would have emerged."

I have been saying this: They (the elven pantheon) would and did begin forming over time eventually anyway, but they didn't spring into fully-fledged 'godhood' until a little ways in.

Quote:
As I've said, there's a difference between the normal Moorcockian conception of the gods and making them warp blobs essentially broken down into four sections with a bunch of difference faces who are just tools for their worshippers.

They were still that back in 3rd edition and earlier, as I recall. And I can't remember a time when they were ever "tools" of the people who worshipped them, beyond how they are defined by what they represent.

Quote:
But you went a step further when you started talking about the elves deliberately shaping the nature of their gods, which completely changes the nature of their existence.

Except those entities were already forming anyway (they had to have been, since the initial entities already existed to be "pushed" into existence). They quite possibly would have attained a more complete sentience eventually anyway, when looking at the example of the Big Four.

Quote:
The gods aren't gods, they're warp batteries that mortals call on to do their bidding.

Oh, they remain gods. They can take action, they can respond to "divine magic" (so to speak), they can do all sorts of things - albeit limited by the rules of their existence. A god doesn't have to respond to divine magic, remember.

Quote:
It's your construction because it's how you choose to interpret the canon.

I'll repeat myself, since I think you missed something somewhere:

"If you like, I'll find you the quotes and page numbers from canonical material that backs up what I'm saying. It isn't my construction, it belongs to GW."

Quote:
But how? If Asuryan is the unconscious emanation of a deep seated sense of justice at the heart of the elven soul, as I believe he is, we're in business and the canon make sense. If, as you asserted, the elves deliberately created him, we're left with a bunch of holes and a lot of questions. How does he have any authority over the elves, when he exists only as their tool?

The Elves deliberately worshipped warp-entities (entities that were already extant or forming at some level, as I have repeatedly stated and which you have repeatedly either misunderstood, ignored or just plain missed). And how does he not have authority over the Elves? They may be the drive that gives him form and existence, but he is still very much above them. They can't really un-exist him at the drop of a hat.

Quote:
This is what I meant when I said that if we adopt your view Asuryan is not the god of the elves, the elves are the god of Asuryan, because they created him, he did not arise from them.

So a god isn't a god unless he creates his worshippers, would be the message I'm getting here. I suspect it isn't what you're trying to say, though.

And kindly don't try and tell me what my view is. Asuryan is a god of the Elves. That is my view. What is under discussion is how he (and the others in the pantheon) came to be.

Quote:
I agree with all of this, but I don't think it's consistent with your construction. It's impossible if we adopt your concept of the canon.

You have consistently failed to explain why it isn't consistent with the canon that GW has published (and my offer to provide quotations still stands). Feel free to point out exactly where I am "altering" the canon.

Quote:
You cannot get a mysterious Asuryan (though I suspect it was Aenarion's pride, not Asuryan's justice which opposed Caledor) who is a viable actor if he's just a warp blob fashioned by elven minds for their conscious bidding.

Your argument doesn't make sense, because Asuryan doesn't have to do what the Elves want him to do. Beyond the basic concept that gives him form (i.e. what he represents) and the rules of his existence, he doesn't really have to do anything that he's asked to do. It took Aenarion throwing himself into the Flame of Asuryan to actually get Asuryan's help. Asuryan in Aenarion opposed the creation of the Vortex (and you're wrong here, too - it's stated to be Asuryan who through Aenarion resisted the idea, not Aenarion himself). Asuryan also burned Malekith (his Flame did, to be more specific, so this is admittedly a little bit more murky, though I would doubt that Asuryan had no hand in it).

Quote:
I only use Khaine and Khorne because it's the most familiar example. I never thought or meant to assert that you believed they were synonymous.

Oh, okay then.

Quote:
I think it's clear from your post that you don't actually know what I'm saying.

Then perhaps you should explain it better?

Quote:
But you go too far in the other direction. You make the gods boring. Oh, they're all the same warp blob with different faces?

I'll make a point here that have never said they are the "same blob with different faces" - and I'll even request that you show me where I have stated as much.

Quote:
Because that's ultimately the implication of your argument that gods cannot be independent and are all essentially unthinking and unreasoning entities bouncing around for no purpose.

They can't exist without the mortal concepts that give them form, no, and they can't really act outside their nature. They can think, reason and act of their own volition, as demonstrated with examples given above. However, what drives them, motivates them, compels them (or whatever word you want to use), is very different to anything a mortal mind can ever fully comprehend.

_________________
"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 125
Eldacar wrote:
I'm ignoring everything from the end of 3rd edition onwards. Wizards of the Coast have butchered the Realms with what they've done, as far as I'm concerned.


*shrug* I have no idea what 4th edition has done with the Realms. Honestly, I don't care either. The Forgotten Realms are a setting; they don't need rules. There's no reason you couldn't set 4th ed. games in the Realms described in 3rd or 2nd edition.

Not that I seem very likely to play in a 4th ed. game for a while. 3.5 is still pretty robust and it works well enough.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:55 am 
Offline
High Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:43 pm
Posts: 1318
Location: Århus, Denmark.
Eldacar wrote:
Quote:
Ha, in something like the Forgotten Realms I don't even pretend to care about canon.

I'm ignoring everything from the end of 3rd edition onwards. Wizards of the Coast have butchered the Realms with what they've done, as far as I'm concerned.


Amen

Eldacar wrote:
Quote:
The gods aren't gods, they're warp batteries that mortals call on to do their bidding.

Oh, they remain gods. They can take action, they can respond to "divine magic" (so to speak), they can do all sorts of things - albeit limited by the rules of their existence. A god doesn't have to respond to divine magic, remember.


If considering them car batteries, then you must consider how you can get to use them to power your car, in case of these car batteries its called faith and worship, its a something for something relationship and it does'nt matter wether or not the gods are "batteries" so to say if their still in control. Or are "designed" a way to give power depending on certain criterias.

In short: I agree with Eldacar here, you can use the car battery analogy here without thinning out the god concept, its just a matter of how you apply it.

I once wrote a faith system for a homegrown world that resembled this a bit that basically went like this:
1) Everyone have a "lifespark" that generates a tiny bit of energy.
2) Everyone have certain concepts they believe in, consciously or unconsciously, such as "good" and "evil", mortals then begin to justify the existence of such by claiming it onto gods.
3) The gods, and all magical beings, are thus born by the collective belief shaped by the millions of lifesparks, and their creation in turn affects the belief of millions, they are very real, but also dependant on the mortals.
4) All other types of magic is basically the usage of the energy these "lifesparks" generate.

I believe that the above points could, to a degree, be applied to the warhammer worlds divine system as well, though my original title "On the immanent transcendent dualistic nature between reality and possibility" might be a tad too much.

Regards

Ruerl Khan


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:03 pm 
So I'm on the outside on this one. Always have been, I suppose, by those who think that cleverness is more important than a good, coherent system that you can actually craft a story around. I think that when push comes to shove, when you need to put pen to paper or actually explain something, you'll gravitate towards my approach because it's the only way to make sense of things. You can even see that in FVC's account of the Fall.

He's not describing aspects of aethrytic vortices (if I can say that term without sounding like a tool), he's describing a conflict between characters. Even if this is a metaphoric way of describing the peaceful merger of "aspects" of the same physical entity, that's boring. If the story of the Fall is Slaanesh arising and everything else just sort of merging with it...who cares? It's boring. It's simplistic. It makes a sort of sense, but it's the same kind of sense that a freshman philosophy major brings to the table. It looks clever on the outside but is all gibberish when you actually start unpacking the concepts and following down the implications.

The buzzword in this thread has been a cry of misunderstanding. I think I understand your positions better than you do, in that I don't stop at the level where your explanations make sense, I take the assumptions that underlie them and take them to their logical conclusions in order to show their absurdity. You're trying to salvage a coherent system where the gods are actually interesting not for their supposed complexity or the cleverness of their explanation but for their worth as characters in a story with explanations that don't lead towards that.

But as long as you still value that coherent system you will always come back to my interpretaton. You have no choice.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 125
VictorK wrote:
He's not describing aspects of aethrytic vortices (if I can say that term without sounding like a tool), he's describing a conflict between characters.


The characters are aspects of aethyric vortices. You don't seem to be able to accept this: I'm not saying that gods aren't intelligent, self-aware beings. They are. I have been talking about their fundamental nature.

Quote:
If the story of the Fall is Slaanesh arising and everything else just sort of merging with it...who cares? It's boring. It's simplistic.


Once again, you're not listening. You're making up a view of the Fall that I didn't give, and are attacking that.

Quote:
I think I understand your positions better than you do, in that I don't stop at the level where your explanations make sense, I take the assumptions that underlie them and take them to their logical conclusions in order to show their absurdity.


A word to the wise: a reductio ad absurdum only works when you use it on the other person's actual argument, not a set of straw men and misunderstandings.

Quote:
You're trying to salvage a coherent system where the gods are actually interesting not for their supposed complexity or the cleverness of their explanation but for their worth as characters in a story with explanations that don't lead towards that.


The gods are characters. But they're not simply humans with superpowers who live up in the sky. They are Aethyric constructs, born from and nourished by mortal emotion, and that conditions the rest of their personalities. That is what I am explaining.

Quote:
But as long as you still value that coherent system you will always come back to my interpretaton. You have no choice.


The arrogance!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:30 am 
Offline
Auctoritas Principis
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Posts: 1726
Quote:
Always have been, I suppose, by those who think that cleverness is more important than a good, coherent system that you can actually craft a story around. I think that when push comes to shove, when you need to put pen to paper or actually explain something, you'll gravitate towards my approach because it's the only way to make sense of things.
Quote:
I think I understand your positions better than you do, in that I don't stop at the level where your explanations make sense, I take the assumptions that underlie them and take them to their logical conclusions in order to show their absurdity.

I think you're being more than a bit arrogant here, Tork, particularly so in that you're not really even arguing the point any longer, just claiming something is so without supporting it. Not quite an argument from authority (proof by assertion, maybe), but in either case, it doesn't really help your position in a debate.

_________________
"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:42 am 
Offline
High Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:43 pm
Posts: 1318
Location: Århus, Denmark.
VictorK wrote:
But as long as you still value that coherent system you will always come back to my interpretaton. You have no choice.


Incorrect, the system suggested is a way to explain the reasons for the gods powers without detracting from them, it does exactly that.

Your argument rests on the belief that:
1) Your interpretation is the only coherent system
2) That the warhammer setting have room for a coherent system.

I target and critize your argument, and will call it a fallacity because of the following:
1) Your interpretation is just that, one interpretation, it is not the only coherent take on the warhammer world. And it is possible, as shown by others in this thread, to give a take, that is coherent, of the gods and divine without detracting from them making them incoherent.
2) The warhammer setting is oft self contradictory, there are room for multible coherent systems or no coherent systems.

Thats it, you should really start putting some arguments on the table, especially since you claim to have a superior position in this, either do this or just admit that your thinking your arguments better because you wrote them.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:22 am
Posts: 542
On the collapse of the warp gates - while it was sudden, it's possible, maybe even likely, that the incursion largely concentrated on hitting the Lizardmen to begin with, and didn't start hitting the other races, including the Elves, in force until the Lizardmen had been battered down enough that they could no longer prevent this from happening.

In short, it's possible the Elves were developing their gods for a millenia before the invasion hit, unaware of the fighting in the rest of the world. However, I'd be tempted to think that the Old Ones actually deliberately allowed the Elves to create their own gods... possibly in their image (see my previous post). Maybe this was even part of the point of the experiment: to tame Chaos by converting as much of the warp energy as possible into more civilised forms.

Gilead Lothian wrote:
Back on the topic of Everqueens, is it possible that the Old Ones created the Everqueens to be their "viceroy" to the elven people. You know, someone to rule in their stead so that the young race wouldn't tax themselves trying to figure out why their patrons looked nothing like them?

It is frequently referenced in the lore that the Old Ones, and their Slann servants, manipulated many races from afar. In the best case, the fledgling people didn't even know they were being guided, just that divine leadership walked amongst them in one form or another.

This could explain why the line of the Everqueen has never been broken. Her mystical connection to Ulthuan is probably something the Old Ones imprinted into her DNA, something that could only be realized through the continuation of her genes via an offspring. That being said, does it truly matter who the father of the child is, or does the father have to go through the flames of Asuryan and be blessed by the High Elf god before a successful coupling can be made?

A similar explanation could be made for the Ancestor Gods of the Dwarfs.

Eldacar wrote:
They are mysterious. Think about this: Why are the Chaos Gods trying to destroy the world and every living creature in it if they themselves know that they will cease to exist (or at the very least lose their coherence and sentience) when they succeed? Why did Asuryan within Aenarion oppose Caledor Dragontamer's plan to create the Vortex when he should have realised that it would save his people? The gods exist on a completely different level of "being" to a mortal, with motives, compulsions and drives that are essentially incomprehensible to their followers. They aren't like, say, the Greek or Roman gods, who were often very much like mortals in their drives and wants, but with a lot more power.
Do the Chaos Gods actually want to kill everything, or are they simply trying to transform the WHF world entirely into a demon world where the only belief system that can exist is theirs?

Have the Chaos Gods actually stated themselves that they want to destroy everything in the world? Even if they had, do we believe them? They want to destroy the civilised world, yes, but I suspect their endgoal is less a barren world and more a world which is entirely covered by the Realm of Chaos, including the squabbling bands of Chaos-worshipping humans, Beastmen, and other races sworn to Chaos.

Regarding Aenarion and Caledor... well, there are two explanations regarding that. First, Aenarion almost certainly had his own mind despite being Asuryan's champion - in fact, if Aenarion really was just an extension of Asuryan's will, he probably wouldn't have drawn the Sword of Khaine either. (In fact, I think there are hints in the High Elf background that Asuryan tried to warn Aenarion not to draw the sword.) Second, the Vortex was basically a huge gamble that, even being successful, was a pyrrhic victory at best, and the entrapment of the best Elven mages of the time and the stress it places on the continent may just be the tip of the iceberg. Aenarion, whether as an instrument of Asuryan's will or not, may have felt that it just wasn't the cost.

If nothing else, by draining the flow of power from Chaos in the world, the Vortex served to reduce Asuryan's ability to exercise power in the world just as much as it does that of the Chaos Gods. Maybe Asuryan knew that even drawing the Sword of Khaine was a better option until there really was no other choice.

Eldacar wrote:
(The Elves) can't really un-exist (Asuryan) at the drop of a hat.
They can if they follow the path of the Eldar and feed him to Slaanesh. :P


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:29 am 
Offline
Auctoritas Principis
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:18 am
Posts: 1726
draxynnic wrote:
Do the Chaos Gods actually want to kill everything, or are they simply trying to transform the WHF world entirely into a demon world where the only belief system that can exist is theirs?

They want it destroyed - i.e. collapsed into the Realm of Chaos. The collapsed gates at the northern and southern poles aren't just gateways, they are effectively two holes in reality (and they aren't getting any smaller).

Quote:
First, Aenarion almost certainly had his own mind despite being Asuryan's champion - in fact, if Aenarion really was just an extension of Asuryan's will, he probably wouldn't have drawn the Sword of Khaine either. (In fact, I think there are hints in the High Elf background that Asuryan tried to warn Aenarion not to draw the sword.)

You're correct that Aenarion did have something of his own mind remaining, such as when he chose to draw the Widowmaker. However, it was over time being subsumed by Asuryan's will (and later, after he drew the Sword, Khaine's will was also trying to dominate him).

Quote:
If nothing else, by draining the flow of power from Chaos in the world, the Vortex served to reduce Asuryan's ability to exercise power in the world just as much as it does that of the Chaos Gods.

That was the primary reason Asuryan through Aenarion opposed the idea. He didn't want his ability to exercise "divine will" in the material world to decrease.

Quote:
They can if they follow the path of the Eldar and feed him to Slaanesh. :P

That takes time, though.

_________________
"Hi guys, I just want to say that for some unknown reason I dreamed the entire Lore team was on my roof last night and we were barbequing a marlin while discussing some rand stuff. It was vivid enough for me that my mother had to wake me up to stop me from mumbling and twitching, believing I was having a nightmare." ~Giladis

"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

"And believe me, I like my websites like I like my boyfriends: wild, free, and unlikely to give me a virus." ~Sirist

[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:56 pm
Posts: 2006
Copied this from Hammerwiki:

The Everqueen of Ulthuan is the consort of the Phoenix King and co-ruler of the High Elves. The current Everqueen is Alarielle, chosen by Finubar Seafarer at the start of his reign.

The Everqueen is guarded by her handpicked guards the Maiden Guard to protect and advise her. They are her most trusted guards.

Upon ascension to the throne, the Phoenix King is betrothed to the Everqueen for a ritual marriage lasting one year, after which they are both free to hold separate courts and take new consorts. While Aenarion, the first king, was deeply in love with his Everqueen, it has not been uncommon for later kings to choose an Everqueen for political reasons


Now, I can't quite put my finger on it, but I have a vague feeling that somehow the author has a basic misunderstanding of the High Elven matriarchal succession process.

_________________
Image
Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander
Crowbot_Jenny
Sunrise
avatar
The_Castle_Series_4_Episode_5

But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:11 am 
Offline
Bond... James Bond
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 2652
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Actually this is a quote from the 5th ed book if I am not mistaken so nothing wrong with it.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:56 pm
Posts: 2006
If that's the case, there's potential for a basic contradiction in the fluff.

_________________
Image
Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander
Crowbot_Jenny
Sunrise
avatar
The_Castle_Series_4_Episode_5

But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:22 am
Posts: 542
Giladis wrote:
Actually this is a quote from the 5th ed book if I am not mistaken so nothing wrong with it.
I think you are mistaken. That's the first time I've seen the quote referred to and I have the 5E book. By contrast, in the section on Avelorn quite clearly states that the Everqueen is always the firstborn daughter of her predecessor, and, since the time of Aenarion, born during the period of the ritual marriage. The current Phoenix King, or anyone else for that matter, has no say in the matter.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 125
draxynnic wrote:
I think you are mistaken. That's the first time I've seen the quote referred to and I have the 5E book. By contrast, in the section on Avelorn quite clearly states that the Everqueen is always the firstborn daughter of her predecessor, and, since the time of Aenarion, born during the period of the ritual marriage. The current Phoenix King, or anyone else for that matter, has no say in the matter.


I concur. I have the 5th ed. book too:

High Elves army book, 5th ed., p. 9 wrote:
Avelorn is ruled by the Everqueen, the chosen of the Earth Mother, mistress of the undying forest, preserver of green fastness, observer of the rites of the golden spring, occupant of one of the Twin Thrones of Ulthuan. The Queen of Avelorn is the firstborn daughter of the previous queen conceived after her year-long ritual marriage to the Phoenix King.


The wiki is incorrect. The Everqueen is chosen by hereditary succession; and she isn't actually outranked by the Phoenix King. The 5th ed. AB emphasises that they're of equal power and it makes some noises about High Elf political philosophy, which seems to boil down to paired rulers a la Spartan kings or Roman consuls plus essentialist gender stereotypes. The Phoenix King has no power to choose the Everqueen, nor vice versa.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:22 am
Posts: 542
Actually, I'd suspect the Everqueen does have some say on the Phoenix King. I doubt the spiritual leader of the High Elves expressing disapproval of a particular candidate is something that will have no effect on the voting, and if nothing else she can probably lean heavily on the Avelornian princes at least.

Plus, I don't think any High Elf wants the ritual marriage to fall apart due to 'irreconcileable differences', turn into an abuse scenario, or otherwise fail due to the Everqueen and Phoenix King not getting along. Since the Everqueen is set and there is choice involved in the selection of the Phoenix King, it's probably a safe bet that if the Everqueen and the Phoenix King candidate don't get along, it's the latter that gets the boot. After all, they can't just get an alternate Everqueen, but they can choose an alternate Phoenix King.

Going back on topic, however... what would happen if Finubar died and Tyrion became the new Phoenix King? Would that just make his relationship with Alarielle more official... or would that mean a ritual marriage with the daughter of Alarielle and Finubar?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 125
draxynnic wrote:
Actually, I'd suspect the Everqueen does have some say on the Phoenix King. I doubt the spiritual leader of the High Elves expressing disapproval of a particular candidate is something that will have no effect on the voting, and if nothing else she can probably lean heavily on the Avelornian princes at least.


The Phoenix King is to a degree a spiritual leader as well (albeit representative of Asuryan rather than Isha), and the influence on the council's votes is likely to be minimal considering that we're talking about a dozen elves at most.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:56 pm
Posts: 2006
As the co-habitation is supposedly not extended beyond a year, personality conflicts may not be an issue, incompatible policies may, that's probably not an issue that Asuryan cares about, though the Council of Princes may.

One would suppose that the reigning Everqueen during Caledor II's tenure might have voiced some concern regarding his foreign policies.

If Tyrion suddenly became Phoenix King, the ritual marriage would be with the reigning Everqueen. If he remained King after her death, there probably would be a second one with her daughter (though I suspect that Tyrion would abdicate at this point).

_________________
Image
Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander
Crowbot_Jenny
Sunrise
avatar
The_Castle_Series_4_Episode_5

But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:22 am
Posts: 542
FVC wrote:
The Phoenix King is to a degree a spiritual leader as well (albeit representative of Asuryan rather than Isha), and the influence on the council's votes is likely to be minimal considering that we're talking about a dozen elves at most.
And one of them would probably be from Avelorn, and pretty much the most important thing to do in Avelorn is to keep the Everqueen happy.

She may even be the Avelornian representative.

And I really don't think that they're just going to ignore any preferences expressed by the Everqueen - after all, she has to bear his child. If the Everqueen expressed a strong enough dislike of a candidate, I'd suspect that that candidate would be quietly dropped from the running.

That doesn't mean that she's necassarily always going to get the candidate she really wants, however. But she's certainly going to be influential, and she may well have an unofficial power of veto.

Musashi wrote:
One would suppose that the reigning Everqueen during Caledor II's tenure might have voiced some concern regarding his foreign policies.
Quite likely... but after his election, not during.

Musashi wrote:
If Tyrion suddenly became Phoenix King, the ritual marriage would be with the reigning Everqueen. If he remained King after her death, there probably would be a second one with her daughter (though I suspect that Tyrion would abdicate at this point).
One wonders what that does to the succession, then - the next Everqueen could potentially be waiting a long time before being allowed to breed. In fact, one could say that it's suggesting that there are only at most two generations in the line at any time - the reigning Everqueen, and her daughter, who is apparently forbidden to breed (or at least, to have daughters) until she can have one with the next appointed Phoenic King after her mother dies.

Even with Isha's blessing, this seems a tenuous system. I could see a more likely system being one in which the Everqueen abdicates in favour of her daughter on the death of the Phoenix King - thus presenting Tyrion with the problem mentioned in my last post.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:57 pm
Posts: 18
Where is that written?

"The Queen of Avelorn is the firstborn daughter of the previous queen conceived after her year-long ritual marriage to the Phoenix King. After this they go their separate ways. Both can take new consorts but only their daughter can be the new Everqueen. Hence the Queens of Avelorn have always been the Everqueens of Ulthuan, forming an unbroken chain from ages past." ~High Elf 5th edition Army Book, page 9.

Astarielle was the first Everqueen, and after her it went to Yvraine, then on down. Alarielle is the current Everqueen, and since only the daughter of the previous Everqueen can become the new Everqueen, Alarielle is descended from Astarielle (and, incidentally, Aenarion, because Yvraine was the daughter of Aenarion and Astarielle).



Gotch ya, thanks Eldacar

_________________
Elf name: Celebriant Nethalowae
http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/I ... een_CA.jpg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:58 am
Posts: 45
Location: Phoenix Shrine
Bel-Shanaar last the longest i wonder how many Everqueens he may had :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:52 pm 
Offline
High Executioner
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:43 pm
Posts: 1318
Location: Århus, Denmark.
kourosh wrote:
Bel-Shanaar last the longest i wonder how many Everqueens he may had :)


One, only one. The marriage is ritual and only to one everqueen. After that they part ways.

_________________
I love pushing around my small delicatedly painted dolls together with the rest of you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Westervoort. Anyone that knows where that is gets a cookie.
kourosh wrote:
Bel-Shanaar last the longest i wonder how many Everqueens he may had :)


If he has had more then one he would have to marry his daughter, even if it is only ritual, thats sick.

_________________
With the thunder of hooves and the turning of our steel-shod wheels, we are death upon the wind.

With bow in hand, ours is a vengeance rained down from afar, we are death upon the wind.

With tall spears held to our foe's throat, cold fury guiding our aim, we are death upon the wind.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:22 am
Posts: 542
Although if Caledor the Conqueror did get around to the ritual marriage, than that implies Caledor the Second would have... :shock:

It's possible that Isha ensures the usual downsides don't occur, however.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:56 pm
Posts: 2006
Elves have a greater latitude in such things, though the ones most inclined have probably emigrated by now.

_________________
Image
Surprise is an event that takes place in the mind of the enemy commander
Crowbot_Jenny
Sunrise
avatar
The_Castle_Series_4_Episode_5

But this did not surprise them, for as it is written in the Great Elven Book of Knowing: Isn't life just one bloody thing after another.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 121 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group