Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:22 am 
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I'm wondering if since the Phoenix King and Everqueen are married for one year mainly to produce the next Everqueen, is that an indication that elves are pregnant for under a year much like a human? If that is the case, since elves live to so long, less then a year would mean nothing to them in the great scheme of things.

Would it be safe to say that the time of pregnancy is not really a factor in their lack of population growth?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:41 am 
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It´s rather because GW said so. Dont try to find logik in a Fantasy World with a fixed setting.

I think many of us have thousands idea´s how the Problems of the HE could e solved, but it´s a static world, with no change at all. New Fluff is great, but there will never be something that will change the "World of Warhammer" ^^

No Race will die out, no Race will claim victory over another, and there are no problems with reproducing or any social whatever that hold back Elven Society to become dominant again.
Sure it is nice to talk about it, but dont forget that it is a Strategie Table Top Game, and nothing more.

And to come back to one Point: the first child of the Everquenn und the Phoenixking. Thats a contradiction to what was said before about elves. One the one hand Elves doesnt reproduce so fast, but it is absolute possible for the Everqueen to become pregnant after one year. Ehm...well....and of course the first child will be a daughter and not a son ^^

Yes, maybe they can control it in some way. But hey Guys come on. Tell a Women that she needs to have sex with someone for one year only to became pregnant and then she can go and do what she wants. Yeah sure, thats fluff, but i think (just my oppinion), that this comes from some pervert GW Member who has no Girlfriend and wants to satify his fantasy. Gosh.....

Anyway, for me Elves are more Tolkien Elves then anything else, and everyone can play and see them like they want. On the table noone caress how many, how less, how great, how small, what they eat, what they do in their freetime and how their sexual desires are. What counts is a good game and a great General who leads his troops to victory.

Just my 2 cents ^^


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:54 am 
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Yanda Sunstar wrote:
Yes, maybe they can control it in some way. But hey Guys come on. Tell a Women that she needs to have sex with someone for one year only to became pregnant and then she can go and do what she wants. Yeah sure, thats fluff, but i think (just my oppinion), that this comes from some pervert GW Member who has no Girlfriend and wants to satify his fantasy. Gosh.....


:lol: :lol: :lol:

You tell them!


GW developers brows this site from time to time and I am sure this will make their day.

:lol:


Cheers


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:15 pm 
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Eldacar wrote:
More or less. Malekith believed that because he was Aenarion's son, the throne rightfully belonged to him (though since there had never been a Phoenix King before Aenarion, assuming that it would naturally be hereditary is a bit off). The Council of Princes denying him that would have seemed like a slap in the face after all that his father had done for Ulthuan.


Might Aenarion have ever said anything on the matter? If Malekith felt Aenarion had been grooming him to be his successor, so to speak, that might be a cause for additional bitterness. The impression I get from the Dark Elf ABs is that Malekith felt the bureaucrats were betraying Aenarion and his line (i.e. the people who saved Ulthuan in the first place), the great warriors and leaders, because they were mediocre cowards afraid of greatness.

It's also possible that Aenarion thought little on the matter and failed to leave any mechanism of succession. Of what I have read of Aenarion, he doesn't seem like a very wise statesmen, but more of a warrior; indeed, a rather bloodthirsty one too. One could think of the war between Malekith (is there a name for it? The war that ended in the Sundering?) and the council as being inevitably needed to sort out the problems Aenarion had left to Ulthuan. A system of succession was worked out, and with Malekith and the later Caledor II it seems likely that they learnt to be leery of dynastic succession, and perhaps even consciously avoid it. (Darn it, I'm thinking of Cosimo de Medici now. Powerful families exist and have political leverage but have to be very careful to avoid accusations of dynasty-building. Hence Intrigue at Court, though it's now gone.)

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However, it is noted that Morathi was in fact the one who objected most shrilly (so to speak) - while she was crying out in protest, Malekith was the one who calmed her and said that he would accept whatever decision the Council made regarding the matter.

So basically, Malekith agreed to follow their rules, lost, got bitter about it, and when he could, he rebelled against the Council of Princes in the events that obviously led to the Sundering.


Opportunism, maybe? Or perhaps Malekith wanted to be seen as the reasonable one and asked Morathi to make the outcry? Or was it mainly Morathi's doing, after having cosied up to Aenarion wanting to get close to the reins of power again? I wonder how much of this Malekith had planned, and indeed how much was his doing and how much was Morathi's...

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More or less in the sense that they elect the next Phoenix King when the old one dies. They're not directly similar down to the last bits and pieces, but the essence of the thing is there. It's an elected monarchy.


The princes themselves bear hereditary titles, presumably? I imagine simply swiping one of those weapons from Aenarion's time wouldn't get you made a prince, nor would buying one if you were a rich elven merchant. (Though the idea of some fat Tilean merchant digging up an old elven weapon and having a dozen silent Phoenix Guard appear at his door the next day brings a smile to my face. :wink:)

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Yes. Each new Everqueen is the eldest daughter (assuming they have more than one - if she only has one daughter, then that daughter will become the Everqueen) of the previous one.


And if the Everqueen is unable to conceive it would pass to a sister, niece, cousin, or somesuch upon that Everqueen's death? There is surely some contingency in place in case the Everqueen is barren.

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Yes - it's symbolic of the marriage between Aenarion and Astarielle.


And I daresay a whole lot of other things too. An anthropologist or sociologist would have a field day with it.

Yanda Sunstar wrote:
the first child of the Everquenn und the Phoenixking. Thats a contradiction to what was said before about elves. One the one hand Elves doesnt reproduce so fast, but it is absolute possible for the Everqueen to become pregnant after one year.


Is it not possible that elves are capable of reproducing fairly quickly and that the High Elves' problems are of societal origin, not biological? After all, the Dark Elves seem to get along fine (despite a society that makes no sense at all), and the High Elves were clearly able to get to a population peak before beginning their current decline.

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Yes, maybe they can control it in some way. But hey Guys come on. Tell a Women that she needs to have sex with someone for one year only to became pregnant and then she can go and do what she wants. Yeah sure, thats fluff, but i think (just my oppinion), that this comes from some pervert GW Member who has no Girlfriend and wants to satify his fantasy. Gosh.....


It's not particularly out there. Ritual marriage and childbirth is something that has happened in human cultures, I believe. From memory there's some tribe in western Africa that does something of the sort with its priests.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:49 pm 
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@FVC

Yeah, ritual marriage is something what happened. But in my little, save and "happy" Fantasy World it doesn´t happen ^^

Call me oldfashioned or to shortsightet, but my Elves, and Tolkien Elves marry out of love, and not out of duty.

And i guess everyone, or the most of us, write their own storys. Sure, noone changes the fact that Malekith is the Witchking und Karl Franz the Emporer. But when it comes to thinks like the Story about Tor Thana, a tribe of WE outside Athel Loren, a colony of HE with a florishing Capital and so.....what would speak against it?

And for me i do the same with this between Finunbar and Alariell.

Ah, one little point í´d like to mention: i´m still writing about a Colonie on the moving Island. When it is finished, i ll post it and hope you like it :)

*wave*


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:57 pm 
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Yanda Sunstar wrote:
@FVC

Yeah, ritual marriage is something what happened. But in my little, save and "happy" Fantasy World it doesn´t happen ^^

Call me oldfashioned or to shortsightet, but my Elves, and Tolkien Elves marry out of love, and not out of duty.

And i guess everyone, or the most of us, write their own storys. Sure, noone changes the fact that Malekith is the Witchking und Karl Franz the Emporer. But when it comes to thinks like the Story about Tor Thana, a tribe of WE outside Athel Loren, a colony of HE with a florishing Capital and so.....what would speak against it?

And for me i do the same with this between Finunbar and Alariell.

Ah, one little point í´d like to mention: i´m still writing about a Colonie on the moving Island. When it is finished, i ll post it and hope you like it :)

*wave*


Looking forward to it, but expect critism if you move too far into your own views on what the HE should be rather than what they are ;)

Where would such an island come from though? One of the islands around tower of the stars? (east of the southlnds, just west of the large island below the kingdoms of Ind).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:45 pm 
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Yanda Sunstar wrote:
Yeah, ritual marriage is something what happened. But in my little, save and "happy" Fantasy World it doesn´t happen ^^


Of course, we all have different interpretations of the Warhammer Fantasy setting. Yours could be wildly different to mine. I feel no compulsion to ensure that the High Elves are 'good guys', so to speak, though I can see how some people might.

In any case, harsh though this might sound, is it really contributing if you say 'yes, well, that doesn't with my view so I'm going to ignore it'. That's your prerogative, but it doesn't really help discussion.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:54 pm 
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It's also possible that Aenarion thought little on the matter and failed to leave any mechanism of succession.

That's the impression I tend to get from it. Aenarion was too busy saving the world to worry about who would succeed him.

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(is there a name for it? The war that ended in the Sundering?)

"Elven Civil War". Or "Sundering" in the sense that it refers to the time, not the event itself.

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Opportunism, maybe? Or perhaps Malekith wanted to be seen as the reasonable one and asked Morathi to make the outcry? Or was it mainly Morathi's doing, after having cosied up to Aenarion wanting to get close to the reins of power again?

Unknown.

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The princes themselves bear hereditary titles, presumably? I imagine simply swiping one of those weapons from Aenarion's time wouldn't get you made a prince, nor would buying one if you were a rich elven merchant.

Stealing one probably wouldn't make you a prince - there are hereditary nobles in a sense. At the same time, though, if you lose the symbol of your house, what granted you your line originally, I'd say that it would be quite a blow to honour, prestige, and "visibility". The house might just fade away into the background without their symbol, but who knows.

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And if the Everqueen is unable to conceive it would pass to a sister, niece, cousin, or somesuch upon that Everqueen's death? There is surely some contingency in place in case the Everqueen is barren.

It never really seems to have been an issue. Being the High Priestess of Isha, who among other things is a fertility goddess, such a situation just never came up, or if it did, it wasn't mentioned and the problem was just avoided somehow. Each Everqueen is mentioned as being able to directly trace their heritage back to Astarielle, IIRC (5th edition HE AB, Alarielle's bio), so it appears that it's been a direct line of descent all the way.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:32 am 
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Eldacar wrote:
"Elven Civil War". Or "Sundering" in the sense that it refers to the time, not the event itself.


All right then. A descriptive enough title.

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Unknown.


Speculate. :wink:

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Stealing one probably wouldn't make you a prince - there are hereditary nobles in a sense. At the same time, though, if you lose the symbol of your house, what granted you your line originally, I'd say that it would be quite a blow to honour, prestige, and "visibility". The house might just fade away into the background without their symbol, but who knows.


Certainly I can see how it would result in a loss of standing. From your description, though, I got the impression that princehood is meant to derive from being a descendant of one of the soldiers who followed Aenarion, while the purpose of the relic is to serve as a physical symbol of that honour. Much as a Bretonnian noble could produce a document certifying his genealogy, the High Elf prince produces the ancient weapon as proof of his ancestors. Allowing it to be stolen sounds like it would be a great disgrace, and the thief would probably be similarly reviled. I'd also speculate that the High Elven government keeps an eye on where all these relics are to prevent forgeries, or the rather embarrassing possibility that a previously unknown elf might appear brandishing one.

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It never really seems to have been an issue. Being the High Priestess of Isha, who among other things is a fertility goddess, such a situation just never came up, or if it did, it wasn't mentioned and the problem was just avoided somehow.


That's true. It's certainly within Isha's power to cure sterility, and it makes sense she would so for her earthly avatar, so I'm comfortable to accept that as an explanation.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:44 am 
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FVC wrote:
Speculate. :wink:

If I was purely speculating, I'd theorise that Malekith may not have particularly/deliberately meant to go against the Council to begin with, or at least not to the extent that he ended up doing (slaying them).

However, Morathi's influence over time, his journeys around the world, and so on and so forth could all have contributed in twisting his personality around enough that he started to think that he might be able to do a better job, then believed he really could do a better job, then decided that he was going to take matters into his own hands, and so on and so forth. Slippery slope, in essence. He may have started with the belief that if he couldn't be Phoenix King, then he would do the best he could as High General of Ulthuan, chief ambassador, diplomat and the like. But given time, such a purpose could well have been corrupted.

However, I would also say that the seeds of such a path may have (certainly would have, even) been in place since Malekith's childhood - it's mentioned that Aenarion's court at Nagarythe was particularly warlike, bloodthirsty, and so on and so forth. Morathi raising him to believe honestly that he is a cut above other Elves, his father is a demigod and thus he is descended from a god, all that sort of thing.

It's all speculation, obviously. Malekith initially agreed to follow the Council, and later betrayed them. The readers appear to be left to draw their own conclusions as to why.

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Certainly I can see how it would result in a loss of standing. From your description, though, I got the impression that princehood is meant to derive from being a descendant of one of the soldiers who followed Aenarion, while the purpose of the relic is to serve as a physical symbol of that honour.

It's described that to be a Prince, you need to have one of the items (paraphrasing from memory here, since my 5th edition book is currently some 400-500 kilometres away). I dislike the theory of it as the be-all end-all of Elven nobility, but it does, IMO, play a major part. Without it, you don't really have proof that you can actually wear the title of "Prince" legally, as it were.

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[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:33 am 
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Eldacar wrote:
If I was purely speculating, I'd theorise that Malekith may not have particularly/deliberately meant to go against the Council to begin with, or at least not to the extent that he ended up doing (slaying them).


Fair enough. As I recall what you usually read from a High Elf perspective makes it sound as if Malekith was evil from the start, some maniacal supervillain who was plotting to murder the rightful king and conquer Ulthuan since he was a babe. I, for one, would agree with the suggestion that it was a more gradual decline, helped along by Morathi; and perhaps we're seeing the curse of Aenarion play a role too, sharpening Malekith's ambition? After all, it is said that those of Aenarion's line are destined for great things, and in Malekith's case, the madness that comes with his blood may help push him over the edge?

I think it's fair to say that he was a 'good guy' so to speak, at one point, the model High Elf. I recall that Malekith made strong ties with the White Dwarf (dangit, I'll remember his name in a moment... Snorri Whitebeard or something-or-other), and indeed swore eternal friendship with him. To swear such an oath with the High King of the dwarfs himself suggests Malekith was something special, enough to convince the normally insular and suspicious dwarfs to trust him (though I imagine they were more open back then).

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Slippery slope, in essence. He may have started with the belief that if he couldn't be Phoenix King, then he would do the best he could as High General of Ulthuan, chief ambassador, diplomat and the like. But given time, such a purpose could well have been corrupted.


And which harmonises well with the 'betrayed by the bureaucrats' line I notice in some Dark Elf sources. I can easily imagine Malekith as, to use another less serious phrase, the action hero of the High Elves. Bel-Shanaar, conversely, is consistently described as being less proactive, and indeed perhaps a little apathetic. One can easily imagine how Malekith might come to think Bel-Shanaar is stifling the High Elves and preventing them from reaching their true glory - glory which he would perceive in terms of martial accomplishment, owing to that Nagarythi upbringing, specific worship of Khaine (for it seems reasonable to suggest he had an interest in Khaine from an early age, considering how wholeheartedly he embraced Khaine later), and the myth of Aenarion.

Speaking of Aenarion, how well did Malekith know his father? I don't think Aenarion was much of a family man, and Malekith was born fairly late on in his life... would Malekith remember much of Aenarion personally, or would he barely remember him, if at all, and be going mostly on what others have told him? The nascent cult of Aenarion, so to speak, is something I could see affecting Malekith's upbringing.

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Morathi raising him to believe honestly that he is a cut above other Elves, his father is a demigod and thus he is descended from a god, all that sort of thing.


So what's Morathi's agenda? She certainly jumped at the chance to get close to Aenarion - would you think it's simple power lust again?

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It's all speculation, obviously. Malekith initially agreed to follow the Council, and later betrayed them. The readers appear to be left to draw their own conclusions as to why.


And therein lies half the fun, or so I would think.

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It's described that to be a Prince, you need to have one of the items (paraphrasing from memory here, since my 5th edition book is currently some 400-500 kilometres away). I dislike the theory of it as the be-all end-all of Elven nobility, but it does, IMO, play a major part. Without it, you don't really have proof that you can actually wear the title of "Prince" legally, as it were.


Presumably, though, the prince would keep said weapon locked up in a safe place? Weapons millennia old can be fragile, and with the prestige hit of losing one, if it were me I would want to guard it as well as humanly possible. Er, elvenly possible. On the other hand, though, they may be required to display it prominently, and magic leaves open the possibility that they could be warded against mundane wear and tear, and even against theft.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:36 pm 
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I think the swords are like Stradivari violins. They're always guarded, given to the one you think is the good choice, sometimes sold away (in the case when the prince loses everything: honour, money) .

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:04 pm 
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FVC wrote:
After all, it is said that those of Aenarion's line are destined for great things, and in Malekith's case, the madness that comes with his blood may help push him over the edge?

Maybe. "Great things" doesn't always have to mean "good things", after all. The Sundering was a great destiny. Not a good destiny for the Asur or the world, but still a great destiny.

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Bel-Shanaar, conversely, is consistently described as being less proactive, and indeed perhaps a little apathetic.

More diplomatic and pro-peace, really. Bel-Shanaar's time was more or less when the Elves were going through their great colonisation, and Tiranoc was at the forefront of that.

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Speaking of Aenarion, how well did Malekith know his father?

Malekith was in his late thirties when Aenarion died. So not all that well.

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So what's Morathi's agenda? She certainly jumped at the chance to get close to Aenarion - would you think it's simple power lust again?

Unknown. Her ties to Chaos have always gone fairly far back - Aenarion "rescued" her from a Slaaneshi ritual in the first place, IIRC. Whether she was a willing or unwilling participant, however, it something else altogether.

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Presumably, though, the prince would keep said weapon locked up in a safe place?

Probably, unless they're wielding it in battle for one reason or another.

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"Think of the Loremasters as irresponsible parents. VictorK is the one you need to talk to if you want permission for something, I'm the evil parent that says 'no' and Eldacar is your grumpy grandfather who fought in some war and is scary and authoritative." ~Ruerl Khan

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[21:39:08] <Lethalis> Cenyu; I figured that with all the smoke that always seems to hang around you, you'd be used to it.
[21:39:49] <Cenyu> Bold words, flying Dutchman.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:15 am 
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Eldacar wrote:

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Speaking of Aenarion, how well did Malekith know his father?

Malekith was in his late thirties when Aenarion died. So not all that well.



An yet in those short 37-8 years he managed to become a great general and a powerful mage. HE was the ultimate prodigy. In our world that would like having a 6-7 year old boy being among the greatest scientists and at the same time one of the top dogs in the military hierarchy.

That bit also rises a question do elves really need 100 or so years to mature or is that just something that is force upon them by their culture.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:17 am 
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Given the average lifespan of an elf is extremely long (I read the reigns of the Phoenix Kings, the average reign is 300-600 years give or take, matruity by their standars would be about 100 years. Though I don't think it just to physical, but also spiritual and mental maturity. Afterall, they spend centuries on whatever craft they pick up. It would take a good century to learn what they conieve the basics. Living longer means more knowledge accumulated. If a High elf is learning magic, even though being naturally gifted with it, it would still take an entire humans lifteim at least to learn what is to them an average amount for an adult.



One thing I never understood is why HE can't have kids. It seems like they can't procreate at all, and if they do it's noowhere near the amount to counter those that die. So, have most of them become sterile? Or do they not get the urge to procreate? Could it be that thet have a period of fertility that is say centurites, like a mating season that only happens once a century?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:37 am 
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Giladis wrote:
An yet in those short 37-8 years he managed to become a great general and a powerful mage. HE was the ultimate prodigy. In our world that would like having a 6-7 year old boy being among the greatest scientists and at the same time one of the top dogs in the military hierarchy.


I believe he didn't achieve those things until after Aenarion was dead and gone.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:11 am 
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Renan wrote:
One thing I never understood is why HE can't have kids. It seems like they can't procreate at all, and if they do it's noowhere near the amount to counter those that die. So, have most of them become sterile? Or do they not get the urge to procreate? Could it be that thet have a period of fertility that is say centurites, like a mating season that only happens once a century?


Where in the World it is written that HE, or Elves in general, dont reproduce as fast XYZ or a sterile, or have problems having kids etc?

You know what? The ONLY Fantasy System where this is quotet ist D&D, and from that, and only from that source, now EVERYONE believes "Oh my god, Elves cant have babys! Help Help!" Gosh.....

And even in D&D it is now different, because in the "new" edition Elves and Dwarfs coming back to life. So please guys....please please please ....forget that stupid think aout "Elves cant reproduce". If an Elve want, he can have 100 Kids in 100 Years.
It is only because Warhammer is a dark world, not a happy one. So they added to the fluff that HE are not so powerful anymore. Why? It is the same why DE are so powerful. A dark an evel race without power is not so impressing. Just imagine DE are few, weak, and yeah so evil but cant achieve anything. So what? "My Lord Karl Franz....Dark Elve Ships have been spottet!"
Karl Franz: "Poor DE....*sign* i really pity them. Treat them nicely, they have such a hard time without kicking their ass back to naggarond"

Yeah right ^^
And why does DE dont have a reproduce problem? Hum....well...yes...because....yeah because of.....the STARS!

So People calm down and forget all about this. It is just because GW said so and it is fluffwise. Not more.....no truth and logik behind this

*wave*


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:30 am 
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FVC wrote:
Giladis wrote:
An yet in those short 37-8 years he managed to become a great general and a powerful mage. HE was the ultimate prodigy. In our world that would like having a 6-7 year old boy being among the greatest scientists and at the same time one of the top dogs in the military hierarchy.


I believe he didn't achieve those things until after Aenarion was dead and gone.


Unfortunately the background tells us this.

Malekith born: -4458 I.C.

Death of Aenarion: -4420 I.C.

Bel Shanaar crowned: -4419 I.C.

So he was 39 at the moment of the first council.

This is what background tells us about Malekith prior to the council

5th ed High Elf army book "The Chronicle of the Phoenix Kings" pg. 19
Quote:
The obvious choice for the next Phoenix King was Malekith, Aenarion's son by Morathi. He had grown to become a mighty warrior, a great sorcerer and an excellent general. He was fair and a persuasive speaker with a natural talent for diplomacy and leadership.


6th ed Dark Elf army book "Malekith, Witch King of Naggaroth" pg. 50
Quote:
Malekith was the son of Aenarion, the first of the High Elf Phoenix Kings, and the mysterious and beautiful seeress Morathi. He grew to be a mighty warrior, a great sorcerer and a brilliant general. When Aenarion died, a brief time of peace followed and there were many Elves who believed that Malekith, a ruthless warrior who had proven himself in the harsh war-torn lands of Nagarythe, was unstable to take his father's place as king.


6th ed UK WD 258 "Dark Clouds over Nagarythe" pg. 17
Quote:
Malekith was brought up in the political intrigue of court life, yet he bore little interest in this aspect of noble elven society. Instead, he preferred to prove himself on the battlefield, winning glorious victories in his father's name. Also, ha had inherited some of his mother's aptitude for magic and he became a fine mage under the tutelage of Morathi.


7th ed High Elf army book "The Chronicle of the Phoenix Kings" pg. 19
Quote:
Repeats the 5th ed book with the lack of the last sentence.



Now if anyone can provide a quote from 5th ed Dark Elf book about the matter please.


To me at least it would mean that elves actually do not need 100 or so years to mature but it is actually the culture of the Asur that makes them mature for so long. If it is so and Druchii and Asrai do not hold such traditions on how long it takes to grow up it would go a long way to explain why Druchii can more easily replenish casulties and keep a florushing civilisation with all those wars and murders going on.


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Giladis wrote:
Now if anyone can provide a quote from 5th ed Dark Elf book about the matter please.


At last, a book I do have. Sadly my pre-6th ed. book collection lacks anything major on the High Elves. Empire, Dark Elves, Dwarfs, Dogs of War, I have all sorts of neat things there, but no High Elves. Didn't think I was missing much, actually, as the 5th ed. Dark Elf was a great disappointment to me after the concentrated awesomeness that is the 5th ed. Dogs of War AB.

Anyway, of Malekith's early life, this is what it has to say -

5th ed. Dark Elf AB, p. 5 wrote:
Malekith was the son of Aenarion, the first of the High Elf Phoenix Kings, and the mysterious and beautiful seeress Morathi. He grew to be a mighty warrior and a great sorcerer. What no-one knew was that Malekith had been secretly experimenting with the power of Dark Magic, and that his contact with its evil energies had corrupted his spirit and created in him an overwhelming desire for supreme power.

However, Malekith's secret experiments slowly begun to affect his appearance and character. He grew slowly more and more introverted, his skin grew more pallid, and his personality became progressively more sinister and intimidating. So it was that when Aenarion died there many who doubted that Malekith would make a suitable successor, and he was passed over in favour of Bel-Shanaar, who became the second Phoenix King.


It would seem to suggest that, prior to Aenarion's death, not only was Malekith a great warrior, general, politician, and explorer, that he was also an accomplished wizard experimenting with dark powers.

A little odd that he'd be doing all that at 39. Elves would need to mature at the same rate humans do for it to be remotely plausible. It's possibly societal, as you point out, but my preference would be attribute it to author gaffe and go for the more interesting story that Malekith's rise to power came after the ascension of Bel-Shanaar and he never really knew Aenarion.


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An yet in those short 37-8 years he managed to become a great general and a powerful mage. HE was the ultimate prodigy. In our world that would like having a 6-7 year old boy being among the greatest scientists and at the same time one of the top dogs in the military hierarchy.

I was more talking about whether or not he had much time to 'know' his father rather than what he managed to accomplish.

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Quote:
So please guys....please please please ....forget that stupid think aout "Elves cant reproduce". If an Elve want, he can have 100 Kids in 100 Years.


How do you know? It's just as valid to assume HE have problems reproducing quickly as it is to assume that they have the same gestation period and birthing abilities as humans. They are a seperate species afterall. Saying that they are the same as humans without any back-up from the source is no better than assuming that they have long gestation periods or are biologically made up to have less children.

I would go so far as to say that the long lives of elves in the WH world, in the 1000s of years, and the numbers reported, if anything, point at slower birth rates. It is not necessarily due to biological make-up, but it is possible.

Quote:
It is just because GW said so and it is fluffwise. Not more.....no truth and logik behind this


This is the answer to every question or point made in this forum. Because GW said so. The people here are just trying to go beyond that and into the rationale behind it.

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[quote="Paraicj
The people here are just trying to go beyond that and into the rationale behind it.[/quote]

I guess thats "our" problem. You want answers for questions which have no logical background.

Are you a P&P Player? If you are, and have your own RP Group, then you should know what i mean ^^

For example, one thing almost every Master have faced for sure:
Master sets the Plot. Master gives some infos what happened or shall happen.
But what do the Players do?
"Hey thats not logik. Whyy did XYZ do this and that and not otherwise?"
Now the Master realise he did a mistake, but have to continue the plot somehow. What to do? Easy thing....let the Players find the solution to the problem ^^
Just listen what they are discussing and then pick the best of it and present it as "your plot" :)

Hope you understand what i mean, because it is hard to find the right words for me. (need more english exercise)

So long....


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Yanda Sunstar wrote:
I guess thats "our" problem. You want answers for questions which have no logical background.


Then, if you'll pardon me saying so, what are you doing here? The 'High Elf Culture' board is specifically for asking questions you think we shouldn't be asking. If the questions are so futile, and we should simply accept the fictional world as-is, then shouldn't you be off doing that instead of bothering the people who do like to analyse it?


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One easy way to look at it is to look at the decline through sociology, although you do end up making the assumption that Elves are mentally very similar to humans. By sociological studies, more rich/developed nations have less children. The reason is that children are an advantage in less developed societies, but children are often a liability in developed nations. Kids work at an early age and often die young in places like the Empire, the Chaos Wastes, and Brettonia. Plus, since there is less luxury and disposable income in those areas, they spent less on their children.

The Elves are another thing entirely. An elfling is considered immature and the responsibility of its parents probably well into a hundred years. A much more long term investment even ignoring the much wider variety of luxury and diversions on Ulthuan. Given the extreme character of the High Elves, I would imagine that they would feel even more keenly the loss of resourses and wealth due to child-rearing that could otherwise be given over to enjoying life.
As crass as it sounds, people often find that they would rather buy a fancy house, eat fine foods, and/or get a car than raise a child as more of such luxuries become more availible. It would only be more pronounced in the hedonistically-inclined and long-lived Elves. They have little to gain from children and much to lose.


Of course, the obvious question is why are the other kindreds of Elves not dwindeling in the same manner? For the Wood Elves, the answer is simple. The forest is still a dangerous place, and one heir to a house or family is not entirely likely to survive to succede their forebears. Also, the Wood Elves live rustically. They do not have the luxuries to give their children that the High Elves do, so they do not spent as much time and resourses on their children. In this at least, the Wood Elves are the opposite of the Ulthuanian Elven. They spend little on their children, but get a fair amount of reassurance should the forest turn on them or their other heirs.

The reason why the Dark Elves are growing rather than dying is somewhat different. While the cold and barren terrain of Naggaroth has few comforts to offer, the goods captured in raids would provide numerous valuable and rare commodities for the Dark Elves to spend on their kids and themselves. The cost of Dark Elven children is thus very high, so the possible benefits of children must be higher. Firstly, all children could become valuable ties to the numerous powerful and dangerous groups within Dark Elf society: Black Guard, Corsairs, Sorceress, Shades, Pleasure Cultists, Khaine worshippers, etc. The high rate of 'civil' war between various factions of the kingdoms of Malekith would mean many Dark Elves would feel like their children/investments are greatly threatened and would thus have more to replace them whether or not the danger was that high. Furthermore, two of the big religous/political groups require a female who will never have children. If so many females are not going to be breeding, it is very likely that the rest have much more children to gain power and prestige for themselves and their House. Death Night is probably a big fear of Dark Elf parents too. The Dark Elves have everything to gain from having children, so they do even though the costs are high. After all, Dark Elves love little more than a gamble with big possible rewards.

And that is all I have to say about that.

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This is more true in modern society. Ages past, larger families, while expensive would also be considered a greater guaranter that the line would endure, and that your family name would continue on. Not many great noble families ever would want to be in a position that left them with only one hier. Additionally, the prototypical elf would be considered rich enough in resources to raise a typical child healthily, but would be vastly more poor than the nobility, and thus not have the socioeconomic reason to not have children.

Also, elves are at least capable of being fully independant at about 30, like Maliketh, not into their hundreds, so this is not a problem. There are also a greater number of workers to children by ratio amongst elves than amongst men for this very reason, so the economy would be even more burgeoning.

Also, raids to steal resources is fine for a relatively small or nomadic group, but would not be sufficient to feed large, immobile cities. The black archs could get by with raided rations, but not the cities. You also seem to assume that the Druchii who have fierce competition would be more inclined to defend their families, or have larger families. This is actually not true. Many dark elves fear that their own children may turn against them at some point in time. They have little loyalty to family compared to those on Ulthuan, though they certainly do have strong familial ties, they don't need to replace killed children just to remain in favour. They simply have to remain competent at all times and wary of their enemies to remain in favour with their favoured faction.

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Giladis wrote:
There is no such thing in Warhammer.



Nor in Iran :lol:

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Andrew the Eternal wrote:
One easy way to look at it is to look at the decline through sociology, although you do end up making the assumption that Elves are mentally very similar to humans. By sociological studies, more rich/developed nations have less children. The reason is that children are an advantage in less developed societies, but children are often a liability in developed nations. Kids work at an early age and often die young in places like the Empire, the Chaos Wastes, and Brettonia. Plus, since there is less luxury and disposable income in those areas, they spent less on their children.


That argument doesn't fly. Why not?

Ulthuan is not a particularly rich or developed nation. Consider. It had a positive growth rate back in the day, did it not? Under Aenarion, during the age of exploration under Bel-Shanaar, the High Elf population expanded, Ulthuan pushed its borders in all directions and established a near-global empire, and was in all respects doing fantastically.

Evidently, at that point in time, neither biological nor sociological problems were present. Elves could and did have a hefty population growth rate. Now look at modern Ulthuan. Obviously there have been no biological changes. Sociologically speaking... again, there have been no significant changes. Explain to me what Ulthuan under Bel-Shanaar had that Ulthuan under Finubar doesn't. Technology? Oh no, by all accounts they had precisely the same level of technological development they do now.

(On that note, it's worth pointing out that the elves as a whole appear oddly incapable of technological progress. I find it difficult to look at a High Elf army on the tabletop without cracking up, so ridiculous are they. Yes, a bunch of guys with pseudo-Greek tactics, no armour better than chainmail, and no siege weaponry better than a torsion-powered bolt thrower... how do they stand the slightest chance against an early Renaissance army like those of the Empire or Tilea, or even late medieval forces like those of Bretonnia? It gets even more hilarious when you look at their power at sea. The High Elves are supposed to have the greatest navy in the world? Seems to me that's rather difficult when state of the art elven naval technology is a trireme with a few bolt throwers stuck on it, and other factions are running around with Spanish galleons with massive cannon broadsides and even, wait for it, freaking dwarf ironclads. Anyone know about Commodore Perry and the opening of Japan in 1854? The Empire, Bretonnia, the dwarfs, you name it, they all ought to be able to sail up to the gates of Lothern, park their ships outside, and give the High Elves a note saying 'all right, you're going to open up the whole of Ulthuan to trade, you're going to establish proper diplomatic relations with us, you're going to start treating us like equals and not like scum to wipe from the bottom of your boot, and you're going to do it right now or we'll start smashing up Lothern, and there's not a godsdamned thing you can do it about it.' And the High Elves would have to acquiesce, because, if we take the depictions of High Elf military forces in the tabletop game and in Man O' War seriously, it's simply true that they can't stop it. The humans and dwarfs could make whatever demands they liked because there's simply no way in hell that the elves can do anything to stop them. The only possible advantage the High Elves have is the use of High Mages from the Tower of Hoeth, but one notes that the dwarfs could ward them off with runes in the War of the Beard and presumably still can, and human wizards are quite capable of presenting a defense of their own.

Thus in my interpretation the High Elf military is nothing like what you see on the tabletop. Elven forces do use better tactics than that and have better technology. Their ships aren't simple triremes as Man O' War would have you believe but are more advanced. Maybe they don't have cannons, but they'd damn well better have a better substitute than bolt throwers. Maybe they've got some sort of enchanted ammunition, I don't know. All I know is that the models they give make zero sense, and would contribute to an Ulthuan beaten into the ground by its rivals.)

Er, sorry, that was a rant.

Where was I? Oh yes. Societally speaking there seem to have been very few major changes, and certainly not enough to cause so dramatic a demographic shift as we're seeing in the modern world. Ulthuan is still firmly pre-industrial - as far as technology goes they're a long way behind the dwarfs and the Empire. Magic helps compensate for that weakness, but if magic counted as far as societal development goes the lizardmen would be counted among the most civilised races in the world, instead of a bunch of savages with flint-tipped spears and loincloths as they actually are.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:46 pm 
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iamblakkmetal wrote:
Giladis wrote:
There is no such thing in Warhammer.



Nor in Iran :lol:


:lol:


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When (if) you people ever agree then we'll get a full essay and add it to the library section because it'd be handy to have a well-thought out answer to why the Asur are dying out. Until then I'm sticking with my theory of cancer-infected Spears and Talismans of Loec claiming the lives of my Nobles.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:12 am 
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The Secret to their extinction lies in their Helmets. Look at these huge, giantic and enormes helmets!

They have to be something behind it!

Maybe all Elves should get +2 Str on the charge ^^


Just kidding :)


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