Ulthuan

Ulthuan, Home of the Asur
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:44 pm 
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Hello all,

I have had a long interest in Asur lore and Total War Warhammer has reinforced it.

I discovered this forum not so long ago and would like to ask some lore questions.
I would be grateful if some of them could be answered.

1. The status of what is currently called Naggaroth before the Sundering. Some sources tell us that the retreating Druchii settled in a wasteland and built from scrath.
But maps of Ausr colonies usually show the cost of Naggaroth colonized by the Asur. Did the Druchii storm these lands? Were any of the current Druchii cities once Asur "Athels" and "Tors". If yes are any names and details about them known? To me it would make more sense that the Druchii managed to survive and recover if they already encountered an existing elven infrastructure they could build on.

2.What happened to the flying city of Saphethion?

3.Do we know anything about the Asur colonies in Araby and why they were abandoned (since not all colonies were abandoned after the war of the beard, Tor Ista in Estalia survived till 1214 IC after all.

4.Is there any information of the identity of Orion and Ariel before they came to Athel Loren. What kingdoms of Ulthuan did they come from?

5.All 3 Elven nations are de facto ruled by 1 male and 1 female ruler, of whom the female has a more priestly and the make a more kingly role. Is this kind of system strongly ingrained into the elven psyche? Do they see it as a representation of the duality of things?

Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad English.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:39 pm 
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Welcome Celahir!

:)

I'm not great on these kind of things but..

Celahir wrote:
4.Is there any information of the identity of Orion and Ariel before they came to Athel Loren. What kingdoms of Ulthuan did they come from?

I used to have the first Wood Elf army book and I got the impression that Orion and Ariel may well have been born in the Old World, though I'm not sure. Almost all the colonists who refused Caradryel's call to return to Ulthuan on his ascension seem to have then gradually made their way to Athel Loren, although the second army book implies this was limited and the third denies it outright.

Celahir wrote:
Thanks in advance and sorry for my bad English.

You're welcome and it's fine.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:39 am 
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Hi and welcome Celahir. Glad you found us.

Some answers to your questions as I see them.
1. It's a bit in the middle. Before the sundering elves settled in Naggaroth. This was (at least partially) done by Mallekith. In the 7th ed book, there is a world map (p13), which shows where they settled roughly. Main city seems to be Arnheim. In the chaos that was the sundering, I think a lot of that was destroyed in floods and earthquakes. The rest then either was loyal to Mallekith or overrun.

3. I think most were abandoned after the war of the beard. A couple probably were kept for strategic reasons or because the inhabitants didn't want to leave.

5. I think it feels more sort of accidental to them. Initially, before the first chaos invasion, the elves were only ruled by a female leader. Only the coming of war meant they got a male leader. All writing I've seen indicates that the HE at least hold the everqueen in higher regard then the phoenix king. But it's the way of the warhammer world that war dictates a lot. Which means we focus on the phoenix king and he slowly becomes more important.

Rod

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:50 am 
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Thank you very much for your answers!

I know the 7th ed map, altough it shows the elven posessions in the old world as smaller then they were shown in the Sundering and War of vengeance bookseries.
So nothing at all is known about the elven colonies in the new world? No names of cities, nor if any Drhuchii city was an Asur colony once?
I read somewhere that many of the colonies in what is now Naggaroth did belong to Tiranoc and that their loss hammered the last nail into the coffin of this once suprme kingdom (Bel Shanaar being the only Phoenix king who resisded in his own capital, instead of in Lothren does speak of the greatness of this kingdom and he did a lot of exploring and colonizing himself).

Arnheim dosnt sound very elven. More German/Empire in its name.

In the Sundering series we see colonies belonging to individual kingdoms, making each kingdom an empire in its own right. In the war of Vengeance series the colonies are shown to be autonomous principalities, similar to the 10 kingdoms of Ulthuan (answering only to the PK and EQ, but not to a "motherkingdom"). Is there any info on how the Asur colonial empire is administered? Ulthuan dosnt seem to have much of a bureaucracy after all.

The story of Tor Ista is the story of a colony on the western coast of Estalia, that gets destroyed by Greenskins. So far I could only find info about it in the german lexicanum: http://whfb-de.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tol_Ista

It is strange that with the phoenix king being a reaction to the demon invasion all Elven realms mirror the system of dual monarchy: PK/EQ, Orion/Ariel, Malekith/Morathi.

I also wanted to ask about laws in Ulthuan. It seems that every kingdom can make its own laws. Can the PK or EQ veto laws? Can they create laws for all of Ulthuan that supercede local laws?

Are all kingdoms but Saphery hereditary principalities, while Saphery is a magocracy, where the high mages ellect the high loremaster?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Celahir wrote:
I read somewhere that many of the colonies in what is now Naggaroth did belong to Tiranoc and that their loss hammered the last nail into the coffin of this once suprme kingdom

A lot of it ended up underwater, didn't it?

Celahir wrote:
It is strange that with the phoenix king being a reaction to the demon invasion all Elven realms mirror the system of dual monarchy: PK/EQ, Orion/Ariel, Malekith/Morathi.

I guess Orion also arose as a reaction to invasion.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:21 pm 
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The original spelling of Arnheim was Arnhelm.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:52 am 
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Thank you for the answers.

Yes most of Tiranocs densely populated coast was destroyed during the Sundering. Much of the rebuilding was actually done by returning colonists (4th ed army book), because its own population was just that depleted. Not only because of the sundering itself, but also because the kingdom was under Druchii occupation for the length of the entire war and the stage of much warfare between Caledors and Malekiths forces.

But if the Nagarroth colonies were also largely Tiranoci, their fall would have put the last nail into the coffin of the kingdom, since otherwise Tiranoc could have used their resources to recover easier.

Was Arnheim/Arnhelm initially meant to be a human colony? It is already Asur in the first army book they get (4th ed).


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Celahir wrote:
Much of the rebuilding was actually done by returning colonists (4th ed army book), because its own population was just that depleted.

Interesting, thanks for that Celahir. I don’t have that army book any more.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:12 pm 
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Celahir wrote:
Was Arnheim/Arnhelm initially meant to be a human colony?


Don't think so. Arhlem is older than the first HE book. I need to check my 1st and 2nd edition Rulebooks to make sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:50 pm 
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I typed a really long answer, before I realized I should ask the following:

Do we count the Black Library as hard cannon for our universe's mythology?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:40 am 
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Well Black library tends to contradict itself a lot. But then again beggars can't be choosers. Same goes for the RPG books.
If we after all only take the army books we will bearly get the "bare bones" of the world, without much width or depth.

And I would apreciate any long answers for sure! Especialy if they are "really long answers"!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:24 am 
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For me Black Library is more "soft" cannon, same as with the RPG books. The broad lines are set out by the army books. And then the rest of the available writing fills in the details. Where books contradict army books I pick the army book as being more authoritative. Where they contradict each other I use common sense and the version closest to the established cannon.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:06 pm 
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A few more questions:

1.Is the average Elf more intelligent than the average human?
It does seems so. In the second Tyrion and Teclis novel it is presented as a given and for instance the 6th ed Warhammer army book states:
"The minds of the elves are every bit as quick and agile as their bodies (.....) an elf can quickly master any skill and far surpasses humans in song, writing, magic, alchemy, architecture and any other fine art." They seem to think faster, easily establish connections and systems, but they are also better at deep thinking. Overall to me they seem to have both better verbal and visuo-spatial intelligence then humans do. Besides that, their memory is often presented as being far better then that of humans, sometimes aproaching eidetic memory.

2.I know that 40k and Fantasy are currently separated but: There is a book for 40k called "Xenology" and it claims that an Eldar couple needs close to a year of regular sexual contact for the female to get pregnant. When reading that, I immediately thought of the ritual marriage between the Phoenix King and Everqueen. Its aim is for the Everqueen to get pregnant and it does last a year.

3.How common is magic outside of Saphery? Could one assume that every villege has at least one mage and that magic is overal something that is relativly common in the life of your averege Asur? The 8th ed armybook does state that every Kingdom has its own magical tradition and in the War of Vengeance trilogy we see that even such a small colony as Oeragor had 7 mages in the early war. On the other hand in the Sundering trilogy, we dont see any mages even at the courts of Princes, outside of Saphery.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Celahir wrote:
2.I know that 40k and Fantasy are currently separated but: There is a book for 40k called "Xenology" and it claims that an Eldar couple needs close to a year of regular sexual contact for the female to get pregnant. When reading that, I immediately thought of the ritual marriage between the Phoenix King and Everqueen. Its aim is for the Everqueen to get pregnant and it does last a year.

I've seen the idea of elves reproducing slowly in quite a few places. I guess it just makes sense, if individuals live longer and die less often, there is less need for children. In Elfquest for example, the Gliders, despite envying other elf children, hadn't produced any themselves for centuries. Because they'd been cut off in their mountain retreat and none of them had died.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:49 pm 
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True that, but in this case its a very similarly looking way. Namly that it seems to take 1 year to impregnate an elf/Eldar woman.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:56 am 
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I think there is a lot of parallels between 40k and fantasy in terms of lore. Much of it was written by the same group of people after all. So it's not strange to see variations of the same theme in different places.
Celahir wrote:
2.I know that 40k and Fantasy are currently separated but: There is a book for 40k called "Xenology" and it claims that an Eldar couple needs close to a year of regular sexual contact for the female to get pregnant. When reading that, I immediately thought of the ritual marriage between the Phoenix King and Everqueen. Its aim is for the Everqueen to get pregnant and it does last a year.

Fun fact; the same sort of applies to humans. Apparently, if you have a regular partner women have a (slightly) higher chance of becoming pregnant. It's not a huge difference, but it is there :)

Regarding 1: I think there's a couple of things here. First of, elves are more suited to magic, which helps in a magical world. Then, elves are also described as more intelligent etc. But also, experience comes into play. As a human you have about 30 - 40 productive years in which you learn and experience everything. As an elf you can easily get 100+ productive years. Which means you have 3-4 X the experience at a certain point that a human has. Which is a huge difference.

3. Magic is pretty common among all elves. It's more common in Saphery. And mages are often drawn there. But you find it in all places.

Rod

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Please try to remember that, no matter how 'official' the source seems, rumours are basically just a dictionary combined with a random number generator

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:19 am 
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Celahir wrote:
4.Is there any information of the identity of Orion and Ariel before they came to Athel Loren. What kingdoms of Ulthuan did they come from?


It is heavily implied in the War of Vengeance trilogy that Orion was a former druchii assassin named Sevekai and Ariel was a Dragon Mage named Liandra under the command of Prince Imladrik. They were among the first elves who came to Athel Loren after the War of the Beard. However they were both changed by the magic of Athel Loren and Orion at least has had countless yearly rebirths and the addition of thousands of personalities into his demi-god-like form, so how close they are to their past incarnations is debatable.

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