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 Post subject: 6th Edition List Help
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:33 pm 
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Hey guys, I've been increasingly tempted by the 6th edition revival that's going on. Despite our awful book I loved 6th edition, the artwork, models and fluff were for me the apex of WFB. I want to go to some tournaments next year but really don't want to do the all cavalry list (it's too hard a list I think, and I don't want to paint that many silverhelms lol), or the seaguard list (which iirc was pretty boring to play after the pregame shenangians) however I remember how awful our infantry was... The tournaments seem to allow just about any of the vast amount of GW published stuff during 6th, so I've been thinking of making use of that.

I've been playing around with taking a dragon. I know they weren't too highly rated in 6th, and if you face cannons it's not going to be pretty, though not as bad as in 8th I think, and I think there's potential to support them quite well.

Here's the list I've come up with so far:

Prince
- Dragon
- Pure of Heart, Dragon Armour, Lance,
- Enchanted Shield, Fusil of Conflagration, Ring of Fury , Sacred Incense

Mage (sits in archer bunker)
- Lvl 2
- Seer, Dispel Scroll

Truthsayer (Hero & Rare Choice, goes with swordmasters)

11 Archers
- Standard, Champion

5 Silver Helms
- Heavy Armour, Shield

5 Silver Helms
- Heavy Armour, Shield

17 Swordmasters
- Full Command, Blessed Tome, Banner of Arcane Protection

5 Ellyrian Reavers

Repeater Bolt Thrower

Repeater Bolt Thrower

TOTAL: 1996 pts

It's a very small list, but I think quite potent. The idea with the dragon is to get into flanks, zone, and try and make as much use of the double breath weapon as possible, if he gets the bound spell of too that's a huge amount of fire power, even against cavalry it will just force so many saves.

The truthsayer I think is a really interesting option that can support the dragon and swordmasters well, his magic is potentially really useful, can grant a 5+ ward save, heal a wound all over the table, and the +1 to hit spell is great, boon of courage can make the swordmasters a huge problem for any enemy unit too. Also the model's fantastic! A fenbeast would be nice but I think RBT's are essential.

I'm not sure if banner of saphery would be a better option than arcane protection, but that unit's going to have a target on it's back. There's no BSB, because keeping one alive is so hard for HBE in 6th, but with blessed tome the swordmasters are on LD10, and pure of heart makes the dragon immune to panic.

Use seer on the mage to take curse of arrow attraction and fury of khaine I think, curse with 2 breath weapons and the bolt throwers could be really nasty.

I'm also wondering, is it possible to make the Truthsayer the general and avoid intrigue at court (what a stupid rule).

Would really appreciate any feedback, I haven't played 6th since I think 2005 lol. I'm hoping that the kind of quirky nature of the list will catch people off guard, and be fun to play too.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:00 pm 
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First off, I agree with you, 6th edition is absolutely the best in WHFB and I am very glad to hear the news there is a revival going on (Is there a forum where people are putting together a lot of 6th edition stuff?).

It's a very small list and I think something like a shooty Empire list could bring you some awful pain. I'd consider some more core just to soak up damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:30 pm 
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Olthannon wrote:
First off, I agree with you, 6th edition is absolutely the best in WHFB and I am very glad to hear the news there is a revival going on (Is there a forum where people are putting together a lot of 6th edition stuff?).

It's a very small list and I think something like a shooty Empire list could bring you some awful pain. I'd consider some more core just to soak up damage.


Thanks for your reply man I'll have a play around with it, it is a bit small... Want something fun and competitive that isn't all cavalry.

Yeah I was pretty surprised but it turns out a lot of people miss it, some are even 8th ed players trying it for the first time. There's a Warhammer Fantasy Battles 6th edition group on facebook (that's the name) where a lot of stuff is being posted, and you can check the files section for some handy stuff. Also the Middlehammer facebook group is amazing.

You can also check out these podcasts:

The Old World Lives: https://theoldworldlives.podbean.com/ a really cool 6th edpodcast, they talk about the fluff a lot, and one of the guys has been going to the events in London with a fantastic Kislev army you can see on their instagram account.

Back to the Futurehammer: https://soundcloud.com/jonathon-chester a 6th ed UK one I just found today actually

The Elector Counts:https://soundcloud.com/eye-of-horus-podcast - an australian 8th edition podcast, but they've had interviews with the Perry Twins and Tuomas Pirinen (writer of 6th Edition & Mordheim), and are half way through a high elf book review.


There's also a group of Spanish guys who are making 6th ed rules for all the models that came after, English translations will be released later this year, but thanks to google translate they're pretty easy to make sense of now even if you don't speak spanish. They're doing a pretty good job I have to say and it's quite professionally done, although they've changed the distances to metric:

https://www.cargad.com/index.php/manuscritos-de-nuth/


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:46 pm 
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Ok decided to go with something a bit more vanilla to relearn the game a bit with (and to make use a bit more of what I have painted...). Also realising that a lot of people play empire and dwarves, and bolt thrower armed races, and that ain't gonna be fun for the dragon.


Archmage
- lvl 4, pure of heart
- silver wand, dispel scroll, sacred incense, ring of fury

Mage
- lvl 2
- ring of corin, jewel of the dusk

10 Archers

20 Spearmen
- full command

5 Silverhelms
- heavy armour, shield

18 swordmasters
- full command
- blessed tome, banner of arcane protection

5 Dragon Princes
- full command
- banner of sorcery

Tiranoc chariot

Tiranoc chariot

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

Bolt thrower

Bolt thrower

Total: 1999pts

I'm not sure that swordmasters can take a charge too well but at just 2ppm more than spearmen they seem a bit of a bargain, and who doesn't love swordmasters haha. Essentially it's a balanced counter attacking list, having no idea of meta or power level so I've really no idea if it could be competitive though. I'd forgotten how limited our options were in 6th ed with white lions and phoenix guard being so hard to take coming out of rare (and a bit rubbish...). It's quite magic heavy, an average of 11 power dice a phase plus 2 bound spells, so I think with the shooting it can force the opposition to come to my line. I'm concerned about the lack of a bsb, but can't really figure out any effective builds for him on foot. I considered giving one the reaver bow and putting him the bunker, would have to lose the lvl 2 to do this, but not sure it's worth it.

Would really appreciate any thoughts or feedback :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Just for fun tried a double dragon list using Asarnil:

Prince
- Great Weapon, Shield, Dragon
- Sacred Incense, Armour of Protection, Pure of Heart

Asarnil the Dragonlord

8 Silver Helms
- Heavy armour, shield
- Full command

8 Silver Helms
- Heavy armour, shield
- Full command

8 Silver Helms
- Heavy armour, shield
- Full command

Tiranoc Chariot

Tiranoc Chariot

Tiranoc Chariot

Great Eagle

Great Eagle

Total: 1996 pts

If I could afford to pick up Asarnil and could find a willing opponent I'd try this, reckon it would be seriously nasty even with no magic, so fast and hard hitting, double terror bombs would wreack absolute havoc with low leadership armies. Silverhelms just there for some static res.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:13 pm 
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The double dragon list looks quite dangerous going forwards, though lack of magic could be an issue.

I know the advent of the Star Dragon with 7th Edition made a Monster list much more dangerous. But such lists were good for several armies at that time. I can’t quite recall why, compared to 6th.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:31 pm 
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I've been playing some 6th edition via UB with a friend during lockdown, its been good fun, we've been playing 2.5k. He plays wood elves so its quite challenging to say the least, however I'm fortunate he's being nice and not spamming dryads or using the treeman ancient with annoyance of netlings. I've been running:


Lords & Heroes:

Archmage, lvl 4 High Magic
Ring of Corin
Silver Wand
Sacred Incense
Dispel Scroll

Ring of corin is so handy, I know it wasn't taken much in 6th, but with heavy magic I find it to be great, the ability to get rid of key items or dispel scrolls is so useful. I'm iffy on sacred incense tbh (-1 to hit from shooting against unit), the idea is to start him in the swordmasters, but then I should probably be more aggressive with them. Maybe blessed tome (+1ld within 6") would be better, although intrigue at court really negates the benefit of putting it on a character over a unit. A power stone or another scroll is an option too, or a 5+ ward save.

Mage, lvl 2, Heavens
Ring of Fury
Dispel Scroll

This guys really for casting second sign, and if I get it portent of fear, the only real ways we can get much needed magic combat buffs. Ring of Fury is awesome, second sign can help avoid it losing power too.

Commander,
Barded steed, great weapon, shield, heavy armour
Radiant Gem of Hoeth (I was using heavens but you can't reliably cast a 6+ second sign with 2 dice, so I'm going to switch to fire, as the magic missile is really handy at forcing enemy cavalry to come within your charge range)

Commander,
Great Eagle, lance, dragon armour
Fusil of Conflagration, Enchanted shield

This guys a lot of fun when he works, and very flexible, but against wood elves at least he's really tough to use I'm finding, I wonder if changing to the fusil to a reaver bow wont get better results, but then no march and shoot (I think?) would hold it back a lot. I find its really in the late game once the tables cleared a little he can really come into his own, I've learnt solo charging him into stuff rarely works out well. Against less manoeuvrable/shooty opponents he might shine more.


Core:

10 Archers

8 Silverhelms, heavy armour, shield, full command
Banner of Ellyrion

20 Spearmen, Full Command


Special:

18 Swordmasters, full command
Banner of Sorcery

7 Dragon Princes, Full Command
War banner

5 Shadow Warriors (use as a screen to give cover for the swordmasters usually)

2 x Tiranoc Chariots


Rare:

Great Eagle

2 Repeater Bolt Throwers

9 + D3 Power Dice
6 Dispel Dice + 2 Scrolls
2500pts

So far I think the army is okish, but I need to be more patient with it, the cavalry in particular, I'm often over aggressive with charging them in the first 2 turns, where I should be really waiting for my magic and shooting to wear the enemy down more. It definitely relies on magic a lot, but its able to pump out a lot of spells which is great, although he's been running the royal banner of ariel (give 12" magic res 1 bubble), plus the divination orb (free dispel dice when enemy uses 3 dice or more to cast), which makes a really fantastic spell defence. So far the stars of the show have really been the chariots and the archmage. I don't want to tailor vs wood elves as I like to take vs all comers lists. That said any tips vs 6th ed wood elves would be much appreciated! How on earth do we deal with treemen?! Last game I pursued with the silver helms into some woods, treeman marched up, 1 strangleroots later and 7 were dead! I've been avoiding fighting him but even at range he's nuts.

If there's any interest I might try to make some battle reports with UB screenshots. If anyone was thinking about 6th edition again, give it a go, still great fun and living up to the nostalgia for sure (even vs wood elves haha).


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 10:13 pm 
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Ielthan wrote:
I've been playing some 6th edition via UB with a friend during lockdown, its been good fun, we've been playing 2.5k. He plays wood elves so its quite challenging to say the least, however I'm fortunate he's being nice and not spamming dryads or using the treeman ancient with annoyance of netlings.

If there's any interest I might try to make some battle reports with UB screenshots. If anyone was thinking about 6th edition again, give it a go, still great fun and living up to the nostalgia for sure (even vs wood elves haha).


Cool.
How is the remote game set up? Not sure what you mean by UB.
I have recently come back to Warhammer and until the lockdown I had a single playing partner for very sporadic 6th edition games.
I mostly played O&G's but the only time I used a HE all cavalry + prince on dragon list (2000 pts) I tore his mixed Chaos list to shreds, he could not counter the dragon effectively. Mind you we are both rather incapable tacticians.
Now I am getting into the mindset of 8th edition, even though no actual game has yet happened.

What is driving you to play 6th over 8th?

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 10:24 am 
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Oh sorry UB is short for Universal Battle, it's a program that lets you play tabletop games online, it's fairly basic but does the job and is quite easy to get the hang of. It gets used a lot for 9th age games and Kings of War. The interface looks a little like the old white dwarf battle report maps but a bit better. There are some good, short youtube tutorials around to get you started.

https://universalbattle2.com/

The first few games were very slow but we're getting quicker now, a lot of the slowness is checking rules though as we've both played several editions including 9th age so there's sometimes confusion over small things.

Yes the all cavalry high elf lists were definitely the strongest lists we could do in 6th, but I'm trying to play with more all round balanced lists more and with the models I loved the most as a kid (real nostalgia trip lol). We're trying to have more fun games and not go too hardcore.

Why not 8th? Well we both played a lot of 8th, I mean a LOT. It was fun while it lasted, but tbh, 8th had really big problems, to the point it was almost hard not to abuse it. The magic phase was broken, the internal and external balance of the books was really, really bad, so many units were basically useless whilst others could win the game by themselves. Throughout it's life there were various comp systems to try and fix it, Swedish, ETC, South Coast GT, and even now there's the triple crown pack people are using, but tbh none of them really succeeded. If we were going to play 8th, we'd just play 9th age, its similar enough still but with most of the issues ironed out. Although it still has a very high power level, is open to the same "gameyness" of 8th, and just allows for really immersion breaking army compositions which I really dislike (e.g. 3 lords in 1 army, huge blocks of monstrous cavalry but little to no infantry. I really dislike the new chaos dwarf book they just released).

So why 6th edition? Well nostalgia in some ways, 6th really was the peak of WFB, and probably the most complete edition, certainly the one GW gave the most support to during its life. It was back when they promoted scratch built scenery, homebrew rules, even using dinosaur models for lizardmen conversions. Even more than that though it was the most balanced edition before 9th age (especially if you use the ravening hordes lists that were written by Tuomas Pirinen together at the beginning before the army books came out). It also had a much lower power level than 8th, and very little of the rock paper scissors of 8th edition, so basic core troops were still very useful, and armies tended to really look like armies, even the competitive ones. There was a strong emphasis on narrative, and character building (far, far more magic items in army books), it also had imo a better army selection framework that led to more balanced lists. There's also a team in Spain working on giving rules to the newer models that so far looks very good.

There's a growing 6th ed scene in the UK where we're both based (I recommend the facebook group, its very active), and regular events (until the lockdown), so we're looking to get involved. Also there's just so much, well, "juice" in 6th edition, so many white dwarf articles, so many campaign books and supplements to dive into. Basically 6th was just more fun than 8th for us.

Sorry for the long reply! I'm so excited about 6th again!


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 3:23 pm 
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Ielthan wrote:
Oh sorry UB is short for Universal Battle, it's a program that lets you play tabletop games online, it's fairly basic but does the job and is quite easy to get the hang of. It gets used a lot for 9th age games and Kings of War. The interface looks a little like the old white dwarf battle report maps but a bit better. There are some good, short youtube tutorials around to get you started.

https://universalbattle2.com/

The first few games were very slow but we're getting quicker now, a lot of the slowness is checking rules though as we've both played several editions including 9th age so there's sometimes confusion over small things.

Yes the all cavalry high elf lists were definitely the strongest lists we could do in 6th, but I'm trying to play with more all round balanced lists more and with the models I loved the most as a kid (real nostalgia trip lol). We're trying to have more fun games and not go too hardcore.

Why not 8th? Well we both played a lot of 8th, I mean a LOT. It was fun while it lasted, but tbh, 8th had really big problems, to the point it was almost hard not to abuse it. The magic phase was broken, the internal and external balance of the books was really, really bad, so many units were basically useless whilst others could win the game by themselves. Throughout it's life there were various comp systems to try and fix it, Swedish, ETC, South Coast GT, and even now there's the triple crown pack people are using, but tbh none of them really succeeded. If we were going to play 8th, we'd just play 9th age, its similar enough still but with most of the issues ironed out. Although it still has a very high power level, is open to the same "gameyness" of 8th, and just allows for really immersion breaking army compositions which I really dislike (e.g. 3 lords in 1 army, huge blocks of monstrous cavalry but little to no infantry. I really dislike the new chaos dwarf book they just released).

So why 6th edition? Well nostalgia in some ways, 6th really was the peak of WFB, and probably the most complete edition, certainly the one GW gave the most support to during its life. It was back when they promoted scratch built scenery, homebrew rules, even using dinosaur models for lizardmen conversions. Even more than that though it was the most balanced edition before 9th age (especially if you use the ravening hordes lists that were written by Tuomas Pirinen together at the beginning before the army books came out). It also had a much lower power level than 8th, and very little of the rock paper scissors of 8th edition, so basic core troops were still very useful, and armies tended to really look like armies, even the competitive ones. There was a strong emphasis on narrative, and character building (far, far more magic items in army books), it also had imo a better army selection framework that led to more balanced lists. There's also a team in Spain working on giving rules to the newer models that so far looks very good.

There's a growing 6th ed scene in the UK where we're both based (I recommend the facebook group, its very active), and regular events (until the lockdown), so we're looking to get involved. Also there's just so much, well, "juice" in 6th edition, so many white dwarf articles, so many campaign books and supplements to dive into. Basically 6th was just more fun than 8th for us.

Sorry for the long reply! I'm so excited about 6th again!


Not at all too long a reply, in fact, very interesting.
Only problem for me I don't do Facebook, sorry but (personal thing) I just hate it. So it looks like I could be cut off some information streams.
What you say about 6th is similar to what I have read elsewhere. I have not played it much, and haven't played 8th at all, so cannot really say, but it seems to me 8th is a faster game.
It also feels different and from reading some of the blogs on this forum I had the impression characters play a more preminent role than in 6th, especially in later versions (End of Times?) when the game seemed to have taken again a Herohammer slant.
But in the original incarnation of 8th there were also some good changes compared to 6th, such as the steadfast rule, and the fact that getting the charge is not as all important as in 6th. Others left me less impressed, for example simplifying Psychology rules and watering down Fear until it essentially became irrelevant. Not sure about magic, in 8th it seems more powerful but it is difficult to gage without having played.
At the end of the day, I would not mind playing a little both versions. I does not matter that much, more important would be finding someone nearby to play non competitive games (at least to begin with).

I have briefly looked into UB2 but I am not clear how one applies the rules of different systems, in fact, how the whole thing works.

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 8:29 am 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
I have briefly looked into UB2 but I am not clear how one applies the rules of different systems, in fact, how the whole thing works.

It's been a long time since I've been on UB. But if nothing major changed, then it doesn't apply the rules at all.

UB offers you a map, you can place terrain and units on it, you can move them around and you can roll dice. That's pretty much it. The rules are something you need to take care of yourself. So you can basically play any system on there you want. As for unit, I think most of them are simply basic icons. You can group them together and you can name them for convenience.

So it's really basic, but that also makes it very flexible to use.

Rod

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 4:23 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
UB offers you a map, you can place terrain and units on it, you can move them around and you can roll dice. That's pretty much it. The rules are something you need to take care of yourself. So you can basically play any system on there you want. As for unit, I think most of them are simply basic icons. You can group them together and you can name them for convenience.

So it's really basic, but that also makes it very flexible to use.

Rod


Interesting concept, but it seems like a lot of work to implement armies/rules.
At my age time is a rare commodity and I have to prioritize its use ruthlessly - UB2 will be relegated to the pile of "could have happened".

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 6:57 am 
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MasterOfNone wrote:
but it seems like a lot of work to implement armies/rules.

It's not really any different in terms of time needed then playing a real opponent on a table. From what I remember, they have models for most units in the game. So to create an army, you just select the right model and say how many you want and in what formation. And as for rules, you play it like a tabletop game. So if a unit can move 5'' then you just measure 5'' and move the unit. If a unit has special abilities then you can mention them to your opponent, just like you would in a real game.

It's a decent alternative to real games and it takes about the same amount of time. But, just like with playing on a real table, it takes a bit of getting used to.

Rod

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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 2:29 pm 
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Prince of Spires wrote:
MasterOfNone wrote:
but it seems like a lot of work to implement armies/rules.

It's not really any different in terms of time needed then playing a real opponent on a table. From what I remember, they have models for most units in the game. So to create an army, you just select the right model and say how many you want and in what formation. And as for rules, you play it like a tabletop game. So if a unit can move 5'' then you just measure 5'' and move the unit. If a unit has special abilities then you can mention them to your opponent, just like you would in a real game.

It's a decent alternative to real games and it takes about the same amount of time. But, just like with playing on a real table, it takes a bit of getting used to.

Rod


Maybe I wrote it off too soon.

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