ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#31 Post by pk-ng »

Prince of Spires wrote:Though a very interesting discussion, it doesn't actually mean anything for the 9th age project. I can't judge the truth of the statements of the skill levels of the players (since I don't know them or have played against them). However, it's not true that you need to be the absolute best player to be able to create a good game. Creating a game and playing a game are two very different skillsets. And though they can be found in the same person I don't think the best games designer is the best player and vise versa. The same goes for instance for football players and coaches. A great player does not automatically make a great coach. And the reverse is true more often then not. After all, the game is made for the 'mediocre' players (there is a lot more of them) and it needs to be balanced for them. Top players will often not get the thought process of average players and thus find it hard to balance a game for them in the same way that the moves of a top player will look like hard to grasp brilliant moves to an average player.

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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#32 Post by Makiwara »

pk-ng wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:Though a very interesting discussion, it doesn't actually mean anything for the 9th age project. I can't judge the truth of the statements of the skill levels of the players (since I don't know them or have played against them). However, it's not true that you need to be the absolute best player to be able to create a good game. Creating a game and playing a game are two very different skillsets. And though they can be found in the same person I don't think the best games designer is the best player and vise versa. The same goes for instance for football players and coaches. A great player does not automatically make a great coach. And the reverse is true more often then not. After all, the game is made for the 'mediocre' players (there is a lot more of them) and it needs to be balanced for them. Top players will often not get the thought process of average players and thus find it hard to balance a game for them in the same way that the moves of a top player will look like hard to grasp brilliant moves to an average player.

Rod
+1 very good post.
+2. Well said Spires.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#33 Post by Lord Anathir »

I'm not sure I agree. 9th age isnt building a game from the ground up. The vision, imagination, execution and many other things required to create a game are already done. Its more of an edited version of 8th based on player feedback. It is for this reason you see blizzard making starcraft balance changes based on the views of pro players and not pub players.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#34 Post by Iluvatar »

Prince of Spires wrote:After all, the game is made for the 'mediocre' players (there is a lot more of them) and it needs to be balanced for them.
Thanks for writing this. It seems to be forgotten too often, and no, balancing the game for to top 20 players in the planet does not necessarily means it's balanced (or fun) for the mediocre ones (of which I am).
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#35 Post by Galharen »

Guys, you are forgetting that all those comps, balancing paches and so on are made for ETC purpose.
ETC is the TOURNAMENT, where the ''best'' players all over the world come to play.
So...
Iluvatar wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:After all, the game is made for the 'mediocre' players (there is a lot more of them) and it needs to be balanced for them.
Thanks for writing this. It seems to be forgotten too often, and no, balancing the game for to top 20 players in the planet does not necessarily means it's balanced (or fun) for the mediocre ones (of which I am).
...balancing the game for to top 20 players in the planet is the nature of ETC and mediocre players can adapt to those rules or play home 8th ed further or any other soft comp.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#36 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

Galharen wrote:Guys, you are forgetting that all those comps, balancing paches and so on are made for ETC purpose.
ETC is the TOURNAMENT, where the ''best'' players all over the world come to play.
So...
Iluvatar wrote:
Prince of Spires wrote:After all, the game is made for the 'mediocre' players (there is a lot more of them) and it needs to be balanced for them.
Thanks for writing this. It seems to be forgotten too often, and no, balancing the game for to top 20 players in the planet does not necessarily means it's balanced (or fun) for the mediocre ones (of which I am).
...balancing the game for to top 20 players in the planet is the nature of ETC and mediocre players can adapt to those rules or play home 8th ed further or any other soft comp.
If that is so, then alas 9th Age is doomed to fail from its very inception.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#37 Post by Francis »

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: If that is so, then alas 9th Age is doomed to fail from its very inception.
Quoted for truth. I can not see 9th age succeeding if the the only intention is to create a game for ETC players. Even though the ETC crowd have managed to grab an unwarranted amount of attention based on the number of players who actually attends the ETC, I can't see 9th surviving if they simply disregard the casual players (something the ETC players seem to have a propensity to do already).
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#38 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Francis wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: If that is so, then alas 9th Age is doomed to fail from its very inception.
Quoted for truth. I can not see 9th age succeeding if the the only intention is to create a game for ETC players. Even though the ETC crowd have managed to grab an unwarranted amount of attention based on the number of players who actually attends the ETC, I can't see 9th surviving if they simply disregard the casual players (something the ETC players seem to have a propensity to do already).

Since it's being made largely by ETC players, now for ETC players, why would anyone expect anything different?
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#39 Post by Lithlandis Stormcrow »

Shannar, Sealord wrote:
Francis wrote:
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: If that is so, then alas 9th Age is doomed to fail from its very inception.
Quoted for truth. I can not see 9th age succeeding if the the only intention is to create a game for ETC players. Even though the ETC crowd have managed to grab an unwarranted amount of attention based on the number of players who actually attends the ETC, I can't see 9th surviving if they simply disregard the casual players (something the ETC players seem to have a propensity to do already).

Since it's being made largely by ETC players, now for ETC players, why would anyone expect anything different?
I guess I had the distinct impression it was made for a different purpose. :?
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#40 Post by Aicanor »

If 9th Age wished to just create ETC ruleset,.they wouldn't have bothered with planning a complete WFB spin-off. I think greatest danger to 9th Age at present is 'death by committee'. Too much community input can be as damaging as none at all. If the creators manage to draw the line at the right time, I believe the result can be quite enjoyable.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#41 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

Aicanor wrote:If 9th Age wished to just create ETC ruleset,.they wouldn't have bothered with planning a complete WFB spin-off. I think greatest danger to 9th Age at present is 'death by committee'. Too much community input can be as damaging as none at all. If the creators manage to draw the line at the right time, I believe the result can be quite enjoyable.
This was my opinion as well, until the ETC selected it prior to it being finished. Now the ETC process will take over and intentional or not they'll end up with ETC ruleset plus some fluff.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#42 Post by Ielthan »

I've played quite a few games of the various incarnations of 9th age now, it definitely feels more "etc-hammer" than warhammer if you get my meaning. Like it just feels like they sucked a bit of the fun and flavour out of it. It's like they had a bunch of different types of cookie, double belgian chocolate, white chocolate and cranberries, fudge and marshmallows, oatmeal and raisins (for one of those people) etc., and they've turned them all into milk chocolate cookies. They're still cookies, just less awesome.

I've actually gone back and forth on it and am leaning pretty heavily towards furion hammer, it's addressing the balance issues, but keeping (and adding) the fun stuff that gets you into the game in the first place. One thing about 9th age is that when I read it I just think this has been written for tournament gamers, no one starts as a tournament gamer, no one new will get into this. It's even presented blandly.

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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#43 Post by Giladis »

People asking for flavour will get what they are looking for when the beta and finished products are released.

If you remember Ravening Hordes, even more flavour was sucked out of the 5th ed armies in that document, than what is missing from TAC compared to the 8th edition.

I am working on the TK book and sure intend to provide the players all the flavour the army gave through from 6th to 8th edition. The game has been selected for the ETC, but producing it just for the ETC is not the goal, it is a side efect of creating a good game.


If you have any more specific questions I will be more than happy to answer if I can :)


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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#44 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

The game has been selected for the ETC, but producing it just for the ETC is not the goal, it is a side efect of creating a good game.
Except that isn't exactly true, as the game is still very much in progress. At this point it's neither a good game nor a bad game, it's a work in progress.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#45 Post by SpellArcher »

Ielthan wrote:I just think this has been written for tournament gamers
Many tournament gamers care a lot about the hobby side, you see plenty of flavoursome armies at events.
Giladis wrote:If you remember Ravening Hordes, even more flavour was sucked out of the 5th ed armies
Hey, my WE Lord still had his chariot!

:)
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#46 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I would like to add the following to the discussion:

1. The Vote

The vote (both for nominations and then for the chosen system) was made by respective ETC captains. I don't know what procedure each one of them chose to determine how they are going to vote but it is safe to assume they did that with the support of their fellow ETC players.

The choices were discussed at TWF by all interested forum members in these topics:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=129959

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=130701

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=130772

All nominations had their dedicated topics or even subforums so all were equally represented. I haven't read the above threads but I assume that they should contain some information on why 4 and not all 5 were nominated. You could also find information in the voting topic on how each country expressed their preferences in terms of all systems. It was presented in this topic:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=130962

and shows what system was second best for example.

In general, the vote was cast by the captains with the support of their ETC players/community so one should ask them first why they chose 9th age above other systems. I presume the discussions above shed some light on that process.

I also want to add that ETC players know each other very well and it is true in particular about the captains, usually veterans of many years of participating in the event. If the vote was indeed a popularity contests then one should ask himself why is that among people who know each other so well some are better received while others might not be.

2. 9th Age

9th Age was chosen and it is natural that people are divided into those who approve, those who don't and those who don't care. In general, it is worth remembering what 9th Age crew wants to achieve as a long term go:
What is the 9th Age?
Fantasy Battles: The 9th Age (project forum) is designed to be the international acknowledged successor of Warhammer Fantasy Battles. It is a project founded by the creators of the Swedish Comp System, experienced ETC players / AR committee members and top national Warhammer fantasy players (team presentation) who have the common goal to create a gaming experience based on the Warhammer Fantasy Battles 8th Edition Rulebook made for competitive play without any need for FAQs, balancing patches or similar documents. In addition we receive overwhelming support and feedback from players of all parts of the world who ensure with their feedback the quality of our work.

Our design philosophy is to stay true to the core principles to maintain the "Warhammer" feeling on the one hand and to streamline the rules, balance units and magic on the other hand. We strive to create a gaming system which is centred around tactical skill and risk management - rewarding players who deploy and manoeuvre strategically.
As you can see it reaches far beyond the ETC itself but it is also clear that winning the vote for this event was very important for the creators as seen in their letter:

http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/index ... -etc-2016/

What I think is important here is that with winning the vote 9th Age gets some real support from players who will test the system to the limits. ETC players are known for their non-compromising approach to design army lists and favorite match ups and for playing crazy amount of games in their preparation season. So while the system does not have to be designed for that event specifically feedback from the ETC players will be extremely valuable if only for the sheer amount of it.

Of course if ETC players are going to be willing to share their findings with the 9th Age creators is totally different question and remains to be seen.

The question if the respective army book teams in particular or teams in general have the best possible people for the job was raised. Well, I want to remind you that 9th Age crew was constantly calling for the support and their aim was to attract the best players from all over the world. You could apply and I think still can apply for any of these teams. Since ETC captains chose 9th Age as their system for 2016 then players interested in playing for their respective national teams know about that application process and advertisements for positions.

It is then clear that the fact one might not see certain names among 9th Age teams is because these particular players didn't apply. Hence, it might be a good idea to ask them first why didn't they choose to do so.

Also, if one wants to make an impact on the game itself he can still either apply or actively participate in the discussions on 9th Age forums or army specific forums or in any other way he wants.

In the end whether one supports the initiative or not and how one voices his opinion is entirely and solely his choice.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#47 Post by ArhangelusM »

Furion wrote:I know most of the people involved.
I don't think they are able to create as balanced game as they claim.

Including army committees, there are around 50 people involved. The entire planet (Earth) has around 20 top tier players, and within those 50 I don't see any name from the list. There is an order of magnitude more Tier 2 players, and maybe 10 out of 50 involved fall into this category.

Warhammer is, in some sense, just like poker. Very easy to explain. Extremely hard to master. Hence the illusion that someone can play the game - and therefore balance it correctly - is very common.

A lot of bitterness there, Furion.

And undeserved at that. The 9th Age initiative has good people and good gamers just as it has some that are not so good. But overall the team is good, they have a goal and strive towards it.

As for being balanced, from what I have read from your work and 9th so far, yours is by far less balanced, IMO. I may be wrong, but I think I'm not. You have tacled the 8th problems with very little rules changes in areas that were problematic and simply dropped points of stuff (6 pts for WS 5 Ld 9 stubborn AP core troops????).

You did not do anything to achieve balance, but make a point drop which skewed thing in very interesting directions.

I am saying this simply to illustrate my point as to why I think 9th was and still is a better choice for a new gaming system than your system is.

I do not belittle your effort, but I thing that your approach was wrong and that is the reason it didn't get traction.

You are an excellent player and a very headstrong person with a very strong ego and I think that is why you work better as a "lone wolf" than in a group. You like to be on top an in charge and I can respect that.

But as Prince of spires said, best player is not by definition the best game designer and vice versa.

Here in Croatia people are excited over WHF again and the reason is 9th age. Not Aos, not KoW, not Furion hammer...but 9th...and that means something.

And about your comment about 9th age guys being biased...do you dare say that you are not?



At everyone else, the 9th age is a game selected for ETC but as a project it isn't ETC only, it is more based on providing a wholesome game that rounds some things that were problematic in 8th and tries to make 1) game that is well written, without of the need for 50+ pages of errata and FAQ-s just to make it playable and 2) to make army books that will make every single unit and model in them viable, unlike the situation in 8th books where the less comp you got, the less and less choices remained if you wanted to play on equal footing with your opponent.

And just to make it clear, I also partake in that endeavor, just as Giladis, as a member of a Vampire Counts Armybook Committee, so if you have any more specific questions about anything, feel free to ask. :mrgreen:
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- former Vampire Covenant Army Book Committee member
- Highborn Elves Army Book Committee member
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#48 Post by ArhangelusM »

Swordmaster of Hoeth wrote:I would like to add the following to the discussion:

1. The Vote

The vote (both for nominations and then for the chosen system) was made by respective ETC captains. I don't know what procedure each one of them chose to determine how they are going to vote but it is safe to assume they did that with the support of their fellow ETC players.

The choices were discussed at TWF by all interested forum members in these topics:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=129959

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=130701

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=130772

All nominations had their dedicated topics or even subforums so all were equally represented. I haven't read the above threads but I assume that they should contain some information on why 4 and not all 5 were nominated. You could also find information in the voting topic on how each country expressed their preferences in terms of all systems. It was presented in this topic:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=130962

and shows what system was second best for example.

In general, the vote was cast by the captains with the support of their ETC players/community so one should ask them first why they chose 9th age above other systems. I presume the discussions above shed some light on that process.

I also want to add that ETC players know each other very well and it is true in particular about the captains, usually veterans of many years of participating in the event. If the vote was indeed a popularity contests then one should ask himself why is that among people who know each other so well some are better received while others might not be.

2. 9th Age

9th Age was chosen and it is natural that people are divided into those who approve, those who don't and those who don't care. In general, it is worth remembering what 9th Age crew wants to achieve as a long term go:
What is the 9th Age?
Fantasy Battles: The 9th Age (project forum) is designed to be the international acknowledged successor of Warhammer Fantasy Battles. It is a project founded by the creators of the Swedish Comp System, experienced ETC players / AR committee members and top national Warhammer fantasy players (team presentation) who have the common goal to create a gaming experience based on the Warhammer Fantasy Battles 8th Edition Rulebook made for competitive play without any need for FAQs, balancing patches or similar documents. In addition we receive overwhelming support and feedback from players of all parts of the world who ensure with their feedback the quality of our work.

Our design philosophy is to stay true to the core principles to maintain the "Warhammer" feeling on the one hand and to streamline the rules, balance units and magic on the other hand. We strive to create a gaming system which is centred around tactical skill and risk management - rewarding players who deploy and manoeuvre strategically.
As you can see it reaches far beyond the ETC itself but it is also clear that winning the vote for this event was very important for the creators as seen in their letter:

http://www.the-ninth-age.com/news/index ... -etc-2016/

What I think is important here is that with winning the vote 9th Age gets some real support from players who will test the system to the limits. ETC players are known for their non-compromising approach to design army lists and favorite match ups and for playing crazy amount of games in their preparation season. So while the system does not have to be designed for that event specifically feedback from the ETC players will be extremely valuable if only for the sheer amount of it.

Of course if ETC players are going to be willing to share their findings with the 9th Age creators is totally different question and remains to be seen.

The question if the respective army book teams in particular or teams in general have the best possible people for the job was raised. Well, I want to remind you that 9th Age crew was constantly calling for the support and their aim was to attract the best players from all over the world. You could apply and I think still can apply for any of these teams. Since ETC captains chose 9th Age as their system for 2016 then players interested in playing for their respective national teams know about that application process and advertisements for positions.

It is then clear that the fact one might not see certain names among 9th Age teams is because these particular players didn't apply. Hence, it might be a good idea to ask them first why didn't they choose to do so.

Also, if one wants to make an impact on the game itself he can still either apply or actively participate in the discussions on 9th Age forums or army specific forums or in any other way he wants.

In the end whether one supports the initiative or not and how one voices his opinion is entirely and solely his choice.

+1

Very well said. :mrgreen:
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- former Vampire Covenant Army Book Committee member
- Highborn Elves Army Book Committee member
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#49 Post by Shannar, Sealord »

My only real thought on this is that it would have been better for 9th age if it had been the ETC game for next year rather than this year. It would have let it actually develop outside the ETC process. Now you run the strong risk of the usual ETC drama/antics becoming part of the process. For example, people finding a combination that is overly strong, but keeping quiet about it because they think others don't know about it and they want to take advantage of it. Instead of it simply developing as a game it's not going to develop as a competitive system, but many of the people doing the developing will have incentive to try to make the results favorable to their own success. It's simple human nature.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#50 Post by SpellArcher »

ArhangelusM wrote: unlike the situation in 8th books where the less comp you got, the less and less choices remained if you wanted to play on equal footing with your opponent.
This is why 9th Age is apt for ETC but not for everyone. If your focus is to win, to the exclusion of other factors, making all picks equally attractive makes sense. But I would argue that some stuff being better than other can be a reasonable and fun part of the game. We also find that as the metagame changes, what is 'good' and 'bad' also change, to some extent. The rules can be altered to neutralise this but that leads to complexity and makes it more difficult for casual or inexperienced players to pick up and stay with. If you can give a new guy a physical book that will be 'the rules' for years, that helps. But of course at the top level, there is more advantage in having a responsive system and you can assume top players will keep up with 'as you go' changes.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#51 Post by Prince of Spires »

You're probably right Shannar. The games developers should be independent and not have an incentive to steer the game one way or another.

Regarding balance in general, I personally believe that complete balance is an illusion anyway. Yes, balance can be better then what GW usually managed. However for a game with the size and complexity such as WH, complete balance is not going to happen. Simply the number of combinations of units and special rules is too big for it to ever happen. And that's without factoring in local meta's and popularity of armies.

Of course, this doesn't mean that when designing the game you should forget about balance. Or that you can achieve reasonable balance. But there will always be some units better then others, point for point. As a very simple example, take LSG. They are such a unit you probably can't get right. Either you have a unit where the specialist units (archers and spearmen) are just better simply because they do the same for fewer points or the LSG unit is simply better because it does more for the same points. You just can't get it right. And that's just 3 units.
Spell Archer wrote:The rules can be altered to neutralise this but that leads to complexity and makes it more difficult for casual or inexperienced players to pick up and stay with. If you can give a new guy a physical book that will be 'the rules' for years, that helps. But of course at the top level, there is more advantage in having a responsive system and you can assume top players will keep up with 'as you go' changes.
This is actually an interesting point. If you're a new and / or casual player you probably don't want to check for new rules and points cost each week/month. Having a stable rules set is probably what you want. I wouldn't be surprised if there's still a whole bunch of people out there playing 7th ed. You want to keep roughly the same list for a few games and not have to recalculate points cost each time you play. In the short term it probably won't matter but it will in the longer run if you want to keep the thing moving.

Thinking about it, the 9th Age will probably want to set up a system similar to what some open source software projects do. That is, have a stable version which receives support but minimal changes for a long while (1 or 2 years) and have a more fluid and beta version being developed alongside it. Something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS.

Of course, step one is actually getting to a stable v 1.0 first.

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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#52 Post by ArhangelusM »

SpellArcher wrote:
ArhangelusM wrote: unlike the situation in 8th books where the less comp you got, the less and less choices remained if you wanted to play on equal footing with your opponent.
This is why 9th Age is apt for ETC but not for everyone. If your focus is to win, to the exclusion of other factors, making all picks equally attractive makes sense. But I would argue that some stuff being better than other can be a reasonable and fun part of the game. We also find that as the metagame changes, what is 'good' and 'bad' also change, to some extent. The rules can be altered to neutralise this but that leads to complexity and makes it more difficult for casual or inexperienced players to pick up and stay with. If you can give a new guy a physical book that will be 'the rules' for years, that helps. But of course at the top level, there is more advantage in having a responsive system and you can assume top players will keep up with 'as you go' changes.

The thing is, some thing will always be stronger, no matter how hard you try. 9th does not and can not offer a 5/5 ratio of power for every unit.

But where 8th offered 2/8 power ratio, 9th will try to offer 4/6. So, some thing are more powerful, but all things are much more viable then they used to be, and in my book that is an improvement regardless of style of play you prefer (tournament competitive or beer and pretzels friendly game). :D
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- Highborn Elves Army Book Committee member
SpellArcher
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#53 Post by SpellArcher »

This is where national and regional differences come into play IMHO. Take a scene like Curu's in Norway. This was a small, tightly focused community, the general skill level was high and most players were very aware of in-depth rules, state of the metagame and ETC developments. For them, 9th Age would be great because the primary focus is to win and their intense focus meant dissatisfaction with imbalances in the game.

Then take the English tournament scene say (pre-AoS). Larger, less focus (except at the top end) on winning, less interest (except at the top end) in ETC, more of a willingness to play the game as it stood. The dissatisfaction of some players with unit imbalances was just not a major problem vis a vis general tournament play here. We have a saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but of course that depends on your point of view.

Then comes the question of how to implement it. Rod's idea of a ruleset fixed for 1-2 years backed up by a Beta model is interesting but I'm still not sure 1-2 is better than 4 for example, you get more time to explore ins and outs. Again, it probably depends on how you like to play the game. Is the idea to actually print books? Or to maintain these on the net for players to print if they want to? There are advantages to having rules in hand.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#54 Post by Swordmaster of Hoeth »

I mentioned that before but I think the fact that 9th Age was chosen for ETC 2016 will help both, 9th Age and KoW to develop further.

9th Age needed that extra attention to fuel the initial enthusiasm. It will develop itself no matter what because it attracted enough people to keep the project going. ETC players among them may help too. As I said they play a lot and will have good amount of games to provide feedback. If they choose to share their observations then great. If not, it is ok too because they will not be able to hide what lists they are testing and that is enough for the team to pick up the trends in that group.

But majority of the supporters might not even be remotely interested in ETC yet they will still brainstorm the ideas and will play their games. Hence, the rule makers will have a good cross section of feedback coming from different sources.

At the same time KoW will nicely pave its way among the players, it is already gaining up momentum nicely, people are picking that system more and more. It needs that extra time to simple let people to get familiar with it. They will play it, they will organize tournaments and with fantastic approach Mantic shows they will use that feedback to great effect. It might be in the form of new armies, in the longer term might be in the form of updated edition and definitely in the form of some tournament players pack(s).

I am really looking forward to the events where instead 5-6 games in two days you will be able to play 8+ in the same if not shorter time with the use of chess clocks.

And then, after ETC 2016 I expect people having another tough decision to make as to which system to promote for 2017 or maybe change the formula and have both presented in the same way?

Time will tell but I think 2016 is shaping up to be a good year for a fantasy player. :)
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#55 Post by Galharen »

I'm looking forward to playing both KOW and 9th Age :)
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#56 Post by Prince of Spires »

SpellArcher wrote:Then comes the question of how to implement it. Rod's idea of a ruleset fixed for 1-2 years backed up by a Beta model is interesting but I'm still not sure 1-2 is better than 4 for example, you get more time to explore ins and outs. Again, it probably depends on how you like to play the game. Is the idea to actually print books? Or to maintain these on the net for players to print if they want to? There are advantages to having rules in hand.
The 1-2 year number was pulled out of thin air a bit. I think they need to pick a number and run with that. I do indeed think 4 is better then 2. And I personally wouldn't mind longer. I'm happily still playing 8th. And I wouldn't have minded staying in 7th much (though I do think 8th is the better ruleset). However, I think that there are groups of players who disagree. There were already people complaining 8th was getting stale after it had been out for 1.5 or 2 years. And then of course, there will be new miniature releases (either from GW or from other sources), which will give a need for new and/or updated rules. But I guess 4 years of LTS should be minimal to give a stable enough ruleset for casual players.

The idea of printbooks is actually quite interesting. I think Print on demand services have gotten to such a level that it could be feasible to run even small printruns and use some channel like amazon to take care of all the shipping and handling (they might even be able to take care of the printing actually). And if the 9th age generates sufficient interest then selling print versions of the books could be a way to generate enough funds to maintain the website etc. I do believe enough people are interested in owning a 'real' printed book as opposed to an ebook to be able to generate a decent amount of funds out of it.

A side benefit of having actual print books is that it lends credibility to the whole project and turns it from a comp system for WH 8th ed. into an actual, real and separate game with ties to WH.

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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#57 Post by SpellArcher »

I feel 7th was solid as a ruleset but the later army books just skewed things too much. While some 8th books are stronger than others, most are in the same ballpark at least. It's this, the feeling amongst a lot of players in the UK (and a fair few elsewhere) that we have a stable game that works well on it's own terms, with almost full army book support, which arguably has not been the case for ages, if ever. But other players want change which means primarily AoS in the UK, KoW in the US and probably Ninth Age on the Continent.

9th Age will primarily appeal to tournament players I suggest. At a tournament it really helps to have stuff printed. Sure, your opponent can lend you his iPhone to look something up in his army book but that can be awkward and what if you drop it? One issue though is whether GW would object more to a project that is actually selling books, rather than making stuff freely available on the net, from an IP perspective.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#58 Post by Giladis »

Well the plan for the 9th goes like this.

Production:
- beta Army Lists by November.
- initial Finished Army Lists by end of December, some hints going for Christmass :mrgreen:
- April 2016 review of the Army Lists following further playing - some changes might be implemented
- September 2016 review of the Army Lists following the further playing - some changes might be implemented => complete Finished Army List that can then be stable for some time (how long unknown atm, but a year or two would not be unreasonable maybe even more).
- October 2016 start working on Auxiliary Army Lists = Dogs of War, Kislev, Cathay, etc,...

The production of army books will happen along with this and we hope all the background and all the artwork will be done by September 2016 to go long with the end of the army list production process.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#59 Post by Furion »

Meh.
October 2016 for Dogs of War - so unfair. The army is as valid as Bretonnia or Chaos Dwarves to be implemented in first batch.

Not to mention that there are some pretty good sources for foundations, so it wouldn't be done from scratch.
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Re: ETC 2016 Votes for 9th Age

#60 Post by ArhangelusM »

A bit off topic, but...

9th Age EoL AB Committee issued a pre-beta Community Draft for Elves of Light armybook. :mrgreen:

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=69496

This is the link to the Thread on 9th age subforum with the said AB copied for your enjoyment. :mrgreen:
The 9th Age team member:
- former Vampire Covenant Army Book Committee member
- Highborn Elves Army Book Committee member
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